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did you try anything to improve group riding in your old club
A bugbear of mine for sure..... riding in groups is a skill that needs to be learned. When i started riding road (30-odd years ago) my club had 'Old Ken' that would take newbies under his wing. Which largely meant him following you round barking out instructions at you.... MOVE UP! DON'T HALF WHEEL! CLOSE THE GAP! DON'T SIT UP AFTER THE HILL! etc. And the newbies took it because they were the times.
I'm now frankly a bit of an Old Ken myself, albeit with a more touchy feeley 2018 approach to 'suggesting improvements' - but even then there's a breed of newbie that simply won't accept they aren't a god of the road. Maybe it's the area i live and the 'new golf' aspect, but they are generally white, male, middle aged, and judging from the bikes they ride (which are always better than mine) earning good Surrey wages. And some of them are pretty fit, can happily ride on their own at decent speeds and now want to join a club, so they can ride in a group and pretend to be Brad. And have none of the spatial awareness / learned capability to be in a group at that speed. Yet when you offer advice......
We do have proper fast groups that to an extent are 'invitation only' (they aren't but if they think someone's acting like a nob and won't listen to advice they can very quickly put the hammer down at the right time and with an ethos of pull or be dropped, can make someone's day quite hard). Equally if someone is considerate but inexperienced and prepared to listen they will teach them the usual through and off and the like. But in the inters and social groups then it would have to be major before we asked someone not to come again, and you just hope they pick it up before causing a big problem.
a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph
Is it just me that thinks 30-40kph is pretty quick?
I'm a member of 2 clubs. One is a club which has been around years and while the old hands know the ropes, and there is coaching for juniors, there wasn't historically much in between. Around the time I joined they set up a new "social" section of easier rides than the traditional club rides, but no-one coming through those groups ever got any real training in group riding and all the established riders stuck to the sections they'd always been in so didn't pass that knowledge on. I rode with the traditional sections and got told to do by the 70 year olds (our Old Ken was a Bernard ;)) but there has been some muttering about the riding discipline in the newer groups (as well as people muttering about why rides need to be listed on facebook etc because surely everyone knows that you just turn up at 9am on a Sunday morning...).
The other club didn't exist when I joined my first club, but then started meeting basically at the end of my road. I waited to see how it developed but have joined it this year - it's now big enough that it can get 100 riders out on a Wednesday evening. They are a *lot* more disciplined on group rides, with proper ride briefings explaining the calls and how to ride as a group, they manage numbers by getting people to sign up to events on facebook and making sure there are enough ride leaders to split into groups of about 8-10 (and if there aren't enough ride leaders to make more groups they declare the ride full). They also run step up rides for people wanting to move to the next group up. You can really see the difference between the two clubs when you see them out riding. Having said that, when I crashed last weekend it was with this club...
Is it just me that thinks 30-40kph is pretty quick?
Doesn't seem unreasonably quick for a tight group on an open road. I can often do the low end of that range on my own, and I wouldn't say I'm fast.
If you are in a tight, well organised, group then 35-40kmh is reasonable on the flat. I've been in such a group and if you aren't on the front you are covering the brakes as even a slight variation in pace up front means a sit up (to air brake) and/or a dab of brake. For short periods (or the final effort/sprint home) then 50kmh+ is not out of order.
As above, riding in a group is a skill that needs to be learnt, when our club started there were some who'd ridden as a group before and some, like me, who hadn't. We had to learn the ropes and it took about six months of slowly getting better until we trusted each other and could ride in close proximity. I've not ridden in the road groups for a couple of years now, I'd have to refresh those skills.
I know of a few stretches of motorway (well, 3 lanes and a hard shoulder – not full-blown autopista) where our local federation lobbied to get cyclists allowed. As a lot of the roads here go up narrow valleys, there often isn’t a practical alternative road.
You're allowed (by law) to use an autovía if there's no alternative - there's a stretch near where I live where cyclists are allowed, and that's despite the (incorrect) "no cyclists" sign on the slip road. That said, I really hate riding on it, we generally don't use it - riding past a motorway slip road (either entry or exit) on a bike is not a nice experience!
Spanish law is fantastic - a group of riders is a single unit (like a juggernaut) so if rders 1 & 2 enter a roundabout the rest of the group follows and any vehicles coming onto it must yield to you in the way that they'd yield to a long vehicle making a turn. It keeps the group together.
I've done ride leading on numerous events, guided rides etc and the "group riding" (in the loosest possible sense of the word) never ceases to amaze me. One in the gutter, one by the centre line and they assume they're riding "2-abreast". Constant surging, use of brakes, weaving, eating, drinking. People stopping (for a photo, mnechanical etc) and the rest of the group stops behind them spilling out into the carriageway. It's like a compete brain removal and as @theotherjonv said above, trying to educate them is like walking a tightrope, especially in the more corporate groups. Absolutely no barking instructions, it has to be done in a tactful suggestive way that perhaps Sir/Madam might find it easier if they possibly just maybe [s]GOT OUT OF THE ****ING ROAD[/s] could perhaps move over into the verge.
Don't be a knob. Applies to both cyclist and motorist.
Please be aware that cyclists are generally not obstructing other traffic. That term would suggest preventing their passing at all. All a group of cyclists is doing is preventing one form of road user moving as fast as they would like. There is nothing wrong with that what so ever. No difference to a lorry doing 40 up a hill when a car might do 50.
I haven't see a road where overtaking isn't eventually possible. In the UK anyway. It may be a couple of miles until a space but that's nothing. A flashing blue light will get any group of bikes to pull over and no one else needs to go anywhere in such a hurry that occasionally losing 5 or 10 minutes is a problem. Stuff desire I mean need. However , of course, consideration on both parts is much nicer. Generally the whole thing is lack of tolerance. As a country we are good at that. Bloody selfish. Just the same as the jerk on a down hill track who whinges because a slower rider gets in his way.
Please be aware that cyclists are generally not obstructing other traffic. That term would suggest preventing their passing at all.
Generally, meaning sometimes they are. A two a breast group of cyclists riding in a bunch of 50 on winding narrow roads are preventing anyone passing. A single cyclist on the same roads is not.
But, as per the parody thread. As a car driver, overall you will inevitably be held up by other car drivers more than by bikes. Does that mean 50 people should not get in their cars and sit nose to tail in a jam if it ends up delaying a cyclist?
Not saying that you shouldn’t be considerate if you are riding in a group or you shouldn’t limit numbers, but in the mind of the general public, this is always about cyclists ‘holding up the traffic’
Spanish law is fantastic – a group of riders is a single unit
/echo 😉
As of 2015, passing cyclists with 1.5m became law, meaning the solid centre line can be crossed in order to pass horses, tractors, cyclists etc. Not aware of it ever being enforced though you notice it's fairly widely respected when you cross the border. Close-passing cyclists seems to be a sport in France.
If you are in a tight, well organised, group then 35-40kmh is reasonable on the flat.
Doesnt sound like any club run I've been on!! Sounds more like a chaingang.
Chaingangs are much quicker than that! A friend told me about going out on the weekly Leeds chaingang -on the way back they were doing 35kmh on this hill https://www.strava.com/segments/847624 he said that bit was bloody hard work!
Chaingangs are much quicker than that! A friend told me
Wow
It's mostly elites and the equivalent of 1st cats cracking out some distance. So it'll be ~40kph for ~3 hours if the route is mostly flat/open roads.
And yes, i tried to improve the club's standard of riding. And gave up. Along with a couple of other guys, one of whom has also left the club following an easily avoidable accident. The other guy only races in their colours (he's been a member since he was 10 or 11, and they basically bankrolled his amateur career, so he feels indebted to them.)
As a car driver, overall you will inevitably be held up by other car drivers more than by bikes.
Depends where you live. There is very little traffic where I live so once past the bikes I am unlikely to be held up by any drivers.
a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph
Then
It’s mostly elites and the equivalent of 1st cats
But they are not awesome enough for you!!
No, they just wobble too much, and can't hold a wheel.
No, they just wobble too much, and can’t hold a wheel.
1st cat racers who cant hold a wheel?
I’m loving that you can only be riding in a chain gang if it’s above a certain speed
I’m loving that you can only be in a chain gang if above a certain speed
Traditional club speak terminology.
Club ride = the social pace thingy, maybe with a few sprints for roadsigns etc but basically a long ride with a café stop, usually a no-drop rule.
Chaingang = the proper racer training ride thingy, 2-3hrs full gas, stop for nothing, if you get dropped it's because you are weak and feeble.
I loathe attempted chaingangs on the open road there's invariably far too much traffic to make them safe or enjoyable and equally invariably there's at least one dickhead in there who thinks it's an excuse for him to get some extra KOMs by using it as a lead-out train. Outdoor velodromes make for great chaingang training. When I was at uni in Cardiff they used to run winter road bike sessions on Maindy Velodrome (which is quite shallow and floodlit) and it'd be a nice paceline for a bit and then a whistle would blow and it would swap to through-and-off chaingang. December time it'd be steady away, by February/March time the chaingangs would be averaging about 27mph. They ran it as pyramid training, essentially group interval work.
1st cat racers who cant hold a wheel?
Yes.
Do you know what the entry requirement for an elite or "1st cat" licence in Sweden is?
Ability to pay club subs and a few hundred sek to the federation.
That's it.
What makes it worse is that you'll almost always get into races too. So you don't need to be able to hold a wheel, just 5w/kg. And try not to take anyone out before the race sorts itself out.
Do you know what the entry requirement for an elite or “1st cat” licence in Sweden is?
Ability to pay club subs and a few hundred sek to the federation.
Oh right, so we are not really talking about the same things then are we. You crack on with being awesome.
In our club (Twickenham CC), you start with the beginners and learn group riding. You can be an international triathlete with a 450w FTP, but you will still ride with the beginners, with 2-3 experiences club riders, often one of whom will be a coach. Only when you can demonstrate safe group riding,do you progress to whichever group matches your speed and fitness. Exemptions are given for riders from established clubs - Wobbly Wheelers RT may not get one 😉
We keep groups to less than 10, seven is typical. Larger is frowned on. Our chairman get the phone calls if a group behaves badly. Singling our for narrow roads and splitting to allow cars passage is typical begaviour
And for speed, 30-40 kph, with an average speed of about 33 kph would put you in the medium fast group I tend to ride in. The 1/2/3 Cat racing group will be 5 kph faster, but this is on flat fast roads. I normally race E12 on our Tuesday chain gang as it feels easier!!!
our group was once pulled over by a police car for riding through and off. On a wide A road. Without traffic. In Surrey.
Singling our for narrow roads and splitting to allow cars passage is typical begaviour
Your club sounds like a considerate one. A good example of sharing the roads.
The club is in Twickenham...gets busy doing laps of Richmond park!!!
our group was once pulled over by a police car for riding through and off.
What did he say and how did you respond?
I politely explained the Highway Code and she was pretty good about it. That was a few years ago.
AA, Richmond Park is the preserve of the London Dynsalow. And has a 20 mph speed limit that is enforced for cyclists (sometimes).
We ride out to Surrey instead.
AA, Richmond Park is the preserve of the London Dynsalow.
From my infrequent visits to the place, Richmond Park is the preserve of virtually every cyclist (and triantelope) within 12 miles of it! Or at least, it is if you go mid-morning on a Sunday.
Oh right, so we are not really talking about the same things then are we. You crack on with being awesome.
Why do you have such a problem with someone who's simply a better, faster, more experienced rider than you being honest and sharing his experience?
Why do you have such a problem with someone who’s simply a better, faster, more experienced rider than you being honest and sharing his experience?
How do you know he is. He started talking about a club run pootle and then said it was 30-40kmph. Thats a fast club run in any of the clubs I've been in and looking at friends in other clubs around the country I know its the same in others. Shorter rides and chain gangs do those speeds but it would need to be a pretty focussed racing club to have regular club runs over 30-35kmph. In fact the average age of club riders seems to be getting much older and young racers dont seem to do many club runs anymore. My local shop ride is much quicker. Then he said that they were first cat racers who couldnt hold a wheel which sounds like bollocks in my book. Then it turns out he was talking about Sweden and all you need to be a first cat is some cash..sounds like wriggling to me.
Is it important?
The answer to the original question is "no". It could have stopped there, really 🙂
Is it important?
Nope
You and I both know fine well he is. Only one of us has a problem with it.
You and I both know fine well he is.
I havent any clue about him other than his bollocks written here. Although to be fair if he thinks 40kmph club run is a pootle he must be quick.