[Closed] bunch road riding, whats the LAW.

I'm not aware of any numerical limit.

I've been on plenty of bigger group rides too.

I don't believe there is any law. Highway code recommends that you do not ride more than 2 abreast, but I don't think even that is written in law.

I couldn't find a law on it either when I looked a few years ago. Common sense dictates that you break up big groups into a few smaller ones - usually self-selected ability based groups. Everyone has a more fun time if you keep the groups sensible. Riders and other road users alike.

No legal maximum. Just apply a bit of common sense - our club splits big bunches into smaller ones of around ten but it does depend: if thirteen turn up it's unlikely to be two groups of 6 & 7 unless there's an obvious split in speed/ability. Let the faster group have a couple of minutes head start.

Could it be dangerous riding as you don't leave braking distances between you?  I have always found this a bit weird.  Trucks slipstreaming is seen as dangerous.  Bikes slipstreaming is not.

It would be cse law not statute that set a limit but I have never heard of any case law on bunch riding.

I doubt it TJ, you can see some of whats in front of you, you are hopefully with riders you trust, there are systems for verbal warnings within the group etc, very different to being in cars.

Cars have indicators and brake lights?

As I say - its just something I find weird - entrusting my safety to those around me who are riding too close together for proper observation.  .

I’m not aware of any defined maximum in law. I also don’t know how that would even be enforced or how you’d define who is offending if say two independant groups of X met becoming a group of Y. Would they cease to be offending when one group passed the other or would you have to overtake one at a time, that kind of nonsense.

If it were defined in law you’d also then have the rabbit hole of defining a ‘group’, ie: minimum distances between riders for them to be considered ‘together’ and other mad stuff like are you a group only if you are intentionally riding together etc.

in the legal sense I think you’re just a bunch of people on the road at the same time, who happen to know each other and be heading in the same direction, much the same as a bunch of people in cars driving somewhere in convoy.

The maximum bunch size permitted in a road race for non-elite races is 60 starters - but you may get multiple bunches riding on a single circuit of 7-10 miles and starts are usually staggered with fastest group first, slowest last so there's little risk of one group catching another.

IME 20 is about the optimum size on country roads - if riding in pairs in a paceline and then the first pair peels-off single-file and goes to the back meaning there'll be 3-abreast at times. Highway Code isn't law, only advisory.

The whole 2-abreast thing is a bit of a misnomer because even a single rider in 'prime' position means an overtaking vehicle will need to cross the white line, so provided a group of riders keeps to one side of the road, what's the problem?

Braking distance? The whole point of being in a bunch is that you have the handling skills and trust in the other riders that everyone knows what they are doing - hence the importance of hand-signals and calls from the lead riders to warn those behind of potential hazards ahead. That's why it's a good idea that people join a club and ride with experienced riders to ensure they're familiar with the drills - the problem with sportives for example is you get a wide mixture of experience and abilities.

Sounds like the main law that applies is the universal "Don't be a dick".  10 riders in a group refusing to work with the traffic would be seen as more of a problem than a group of 20 who are considerate to other road users.

Regarding the legal situation of riders "tailgating" each other, there was a case a few years ago between riders in the same group where one had caused a crash.  The ruling was (quite sensibly) that the riders had jointly chosen to ride closely together and thus accept the risks associated with doing so.

Quite different from a lorry tailgating strangers, both in terms of joint acceptance of risk, and of course, the risk posed by the thing behind crashing into the thing in front (90kg at 20mph vs 44,000kg at 60mph)

Haven't done much club riding in the last year but it's all about trust. New people get shown the way and you also learn those to be wary of. I've split and gone solo several times before when I don't trust the group or it's just too large (over 16 is too big on the busy roads around us. Best rides are with a small well-matched group or two up, unfortunately, I'm now not well matched due to losing fitness due to having a young child a home.

Ta for that PDW

Odd that in other circumstances ( S&M ) that the law said the opposite but that would be a clear ruling which is good.

No law that I'm aware of.  Last night I did 50 miles in a group of 12 which is about as big as my club goes.  Beyond that it splits into smaller groups, and last night there were a couple of sections where we split into two groups of 6 with a gap between us to make it easier to pass.  I actually crashed on a ride with the same club on Saturday (9 riders in the group) when two riders touched wheels but I understood the risks before I started doing group rides so it hasn't stopped me getting back out with them.

I think 10 or so is about the max for rural roads. But it still takes discipline not to end up a sprawling line.

I've tried to split a large group into groups of 6 for road sections a couple of times (riding 2 abreast to create a small car sized bunch) but it always fails as riders either all go at once, or single out quickly to their own speed rather than trying to stay in a bunch.

Thankfully we are just linking up trails with short sections of road and after a few impatient passes you tend to collect a driver that is either more patient or less confident and they follow along slowly for a few minutes and block the other drivers, this is a good thing as generally one driver overtakes having spotted a car spaced gap further up the road, but then 3 or 4 more will follow and get stuck as there is no where to pull back in for oncoming traffic.

our club tries to keep to 10, 12 max, and even then we might consider splitting to two with 'line of sight'* between the two groups so we aren't an obvious gammon inciting peloton.

* Maybe 100 yards, and then dropping riders on corners if necessary to keep it moving.

In a few weeks time the annual Liverpool chester Liverpool bike ride takes place,thousands of cyclists all going the same way on mass and from the start few miles in  there is a roundabout onto a 50 mph road off a 30 mph road, the cyclists continue across the roundabout the cars mostly want to try and turn left down the 50 mph road and cant because of the sheer number of cyclists, this causes aggression form the motorists.

How do you control all those individual cyclists, where and how do you instruct them to cycle in small groups, how do you control their speeds, riding skills, experience of road riding etc.

Bit like middle lane hoggers on the motorway,

Then change the tag cyclists to the tag motorists same problem.

The maximum bunch size permitted in a road race for non-elite races is 60 starters – but you may get multiple bunches riding on a single circuit of 7-10 miles and starts are usually staggered with fastest group first, slowest last so there’s little risk of one group catching another.

It can be 60 or 80 depending on the circuit. Concurrent racing is frowned upon but not specifically disallowed. It brings extra risk in that if there's a crash in the front group, you've got the issue of a second group of potentially 60 riders (plus convoy vehicles) bearing down on it at 25mph...

In terms of non-racing there is no limit. The simple reason being that what if there was a limit of [x] and a group of [x] riders went out for a ride and they overtook another rider (or group of riders)? At that point there would be [x] +1 and if there was an incident, accident etc someone could come along and say "ah but there were [x] + 1 riders in that group and the law says [x] so you were breaking the law".

It's unworkable - and besides there are plenty of situations where a group of 15-20 might be fine but other situations where a group of even 6 might be difficult depending on road layout, traffic, riding abilities, even time of day (loads of roads round here which I'll happily ride at night with near zero traffic but never during the day).

The 2-abreast thing is a common misconception as well. It is not against the law to ride more than 2-abreast., The Highway Code uses the words MUST (and MUST NOT) and SHOULD / SHOULD NOT. MUST referes to a legal point - the text itself is not usually the actual law but it references the law. SHOULD is just guidance.

The exact wording in Rule 66 is that cyclists SHOULD NEVER ride more than 2-abreast which is really really strongly advising against it while also acknowledging that at times it may be unavoidable (eg a group of 10 riders, in 2 x 5 formation overtaking a lone rider or vice versa). It's obviously impractical for the entire 10 riders to single out, overtake (or be overtaken) and re-form so you just get on with the overtake. Cars doing an overtake are 4 abreast / taking up the entire road so given that bikes don't take up an entire lane, they can just get on with it (as quickly and safely as reasonably practical).

The challenge of course is explaining any of that to the lobotomised moron that passes for the average driver these days...

Large groups can be a pain around country lanes when there are never safe places to pass more than a single rider.

Be better if they broke up into groups of 3 or 4 as you shouldn't be holding up traffic for miles at a time.

Be better if they broke up into groups of 3 or 4 as you shouldn’t be holding up traffic for miles at a time.

Except that it is very rare for it to be 'miles at a time'

the bikes are traffic - not holding up traffic

Having said that I did once come across a large group - 50 plus in 2 or 3 smaller groups and so many cars were waiting to get past it was about 5 miles before I got past them.  they were certainly being antisocial in that any vehicle holding up that much traffic for that long should have and indeed is legally obliged to pull over to let queues clear

Bunches of 30+ ride through here from Edinburgh every weekend in summer holding up local drivers as cars can't possibly pass their spandex pride parade safely. Often for miles.
It doesn't really matter what the law says, Ride in a bunch of 30 on the open road and you're a selfish dick. There's no reason a Group of more than 20 couldn't just do the decent thing and split into 2 groups other than Nigel and Benjamin's need to be seen in the same group as the club cat2 superstars of course.

You seem to have contradicted yourself there tj.  Yes bikes are traffic but they also hold up traffic.  18mph bikes riding along 40mph roads are holding up traffic.  In the same way an 18mph tractor is holding up traffic.

Where I live you can be stuck behind them for miles, yes 2 or 3 miles at a  time as the roads are narrow, twisty, have narrowing sections, when you get a break there is oncoming traffic etc,.

As a said, smaller groups who are distanced apart and cars could get past.  As a cyclist that is the approach I would take rather than pulling over.

You MUST not ride more than two abreast. Simple. In our club groups are restricted to no more than 9, because when riding "through and off" an odd number works better. It's also two abreast because this is a smaller group to overtake. Also the inside group will ride closer to the kerb than when riding "bit and bit" aka team time trial style.

Road racing is different, and under the control of the local police. Circuits are authorised and riders are inside a marshalled rolling bubble of safety. Riders are still responsible for their actions and must obey the highway code at all times. Cross a double white line is an instant DQ, for example. Numbers will be limited based on circuit.

Circuit race bunch size is limited to numbers allowed on the circuit. Hillingdon has a limit of 80, which can be one big race (Archer Spring criterium) or two smaller races as we often race split across age or BC categories.

Sportives are a free-for-all. I only ride closed road ones!

Not BRD ride OP?

I agree 2 abreast group of 10 is best for over taking,(5x2) how has the general reaction of cars been compared to 10 single file?

You MUST not ride more than two abreast. Simple.

My cat is the reincarnated form of Elvis. Simple.

But equally wrong, even if it seems like a nice idea.

https://twitter.com/surreyroadcops/status/1005152103403319297?s=21

Could it be dangerous riding as you don’t leave braking distances between you?

That's the only "legislation". Riding too close/tailgating/whatever.

It's a bugger to prosecute tho (Don't think anyone's ever been done in the UK, bike to bike), so they wait until you are following something like a moped or motorbike that has insurance, MOT and a licenced rider, and i know a couple of guys who have received fixed penalties for that. Don't know the detail, anymore than "bugger, just got an FPN for motorpacing my coached rider" on facebook.

I do have a bit of a problem though with relying on the HC and this MUST vs SHOULD argument.

Ignoring for now what the HC says, it is absolutely right in principle and fact that riding as a tight, small, group 2 up or even possibly 3 up presents an obstacle that is easier to pass in most situations than a longer file of singled out riders. The exception to me is a straight road with a width that is 2 cars plus a cyclist plus a reasonable bit more to allow the 1.5m approx that they need to pass us and each other safely,.

The issue I have is that the HC also says we should (not must) single out on narrow, busy and twisty roads, and if we rely on semi-ambiguous wording in our favour for the allowance to ride abreast, we can't easily say it's only "should" on the narrow and twisty section and thus have our cake and eat it.

And in fact, these narrow and twisty roads are exactly the ones where 2 abreast is safer because it will generally prevent all but the nutter overtake, and even the nutter overtake has a shorter exposure.

So realistically when leading a group I will split it to smaller LoS group(s) if needs be, instruct to ride 2 up and keep it tight where possible, if we do start to lengthen as often happens on hills be mindful to try to keep as groups with gaps rather than end up as an extended line that cars have to overtake in one go (allow for leapfroggers).

But I'll also admit that at times I will request the group to single out solely to be seen to be doing what the drivers want to see us doing even if it does make the group longer. And then I'll ride the group at an appropriate distance from the edge / in the carriageway to dissuade the overtake anyway. You can't win an argument with an idiot based on reasoning and rather than present as 2 abreast and cause them to get all het up, avoid the issue by doing what they think you should do, even if it isn't what you really should.

And yes, if necessary I will pull in to allow cars to pass.

Interestingly (well for me, and i realise no-one asked), Spanish law treats a group of riders as one unit in some cases, eg. if the first riders enter a 'clear' roundabout and a car subsequently enters, it must yield to the following riders.  Or if a green light changes as a group is riding through.  Common sense really, but you have to put a lot of faith in the driver's awareness of the law when you're the 8th wheel going onto a roundabout at 45kmh with a car already on it!

Any more interesting Spanish law on cycling bob ?

I Vaguely remember you could ride on the motorway if there was no other road to a destination and there wasn’t a no cycling sign 🙂

Is there any law on maximum number of riders in one group for riding on the road?

Forgot to finish my post off, "2" is the maximum technically. Or maybe 3 if you ride 3 abreast.

Do BC have a guideline? I know we have guidelines here for a maximum group size of 12. But most ignore it outside of the "big" cities. As it's pretty pointless when you might only see a dozen cars an hour.

Pretty pointless IN the cities as well, as the speed limit is pretty much 50kph or less on any road you are likely to use.

You SHOULD ...

• never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bend

That's in HC rule 66.  Note use of SHOULD.

That’s in HC rule 66.  Note use of SHOULD.

(IANAHCE)

Rule is the incorrect term. Guideline.

Should is also incorrect. Recommended.

MUST is used when it is a law.

Next thing you know you will suggest that we should be single file on country roads, over to the left....

We are also 'banned' from flashing lights to give way, sounding horn between 11pm and 7am, parking on the wrong side of the street etc.

You also MUST (so this is law) using parking lights if parked on a road with speed limit over 30mph at night.

You also MUST (so this is law) not use your mobile in the event of an accident on the motorway, you MUST walk to the emergency phones.

The law  and the highway code is an arse....IMO

The MUST/SHOULD distinction in the Highway Code is as much about what you may be prosecuted for as how to behave on the road. So you can be prosecuted for breaking the rule of law behind a "MUST clause" but not a "SHOULD clause" but the latter may be taken into consideration if you were being prosecuted for the first case.

A lot of the "MUST" cases get ignored anyway (like the parking lights example) unless it actually causes a problem.

@mat_outandabout - the HC uses the term "rules"  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

You also MUST (so this is law) not use your mobile in the event of an accident on the motorway, you MUST walk to the emergency phones.

Never knew that one. Wondering what the reasoning is behind that. Whether it's to establish your location, or prevent you from standing in harms way?

Any more interesting Spanish law on cycling bob ?

I Vaguely remember you could ride on the motorway if there was no other road to a destination and there wasn’t a no cycling sign

Sarcasm detector is beeping 🙂

I know of a few stretches of motorway (well, 3 lanes and a hard shoulder - not full-blown autopista) where our local federation lobbied to get cyclists allowed.  As a lot of the roads here go up narrow valleys, there often isn't a practical alternative road.

When you join via the slip road, you get the usual mopeds/horses etc prohibited signs, but the cyclists one is a triangular warning.  I use them only when necessary -  the big chunks of lorry retread on the shoulder scare me!

Yes bikes are traffic but they also hold up traffic

And bikes get held up by traffic.

Rule is the incorrect term. Guideline.

Should is also incorrect. Recommended.

Well, the highway code website (the official .gov.uk one) says 'Rule 66' and it says 'SHOULD' so that's why I quoted it.

I am aware that SHOULD is only a guideline, which is why I highlighted it.  The 'MUST's have citations and links to laws.

Relatively inexperienced road rider here.

I find that the maximum group size that I would feel safe riding in is very much governed by the skills and experience of the riders in the group. I'd be happy riding 10+ in a group that are competent, focused and understand the basics of tight, group riding where instructions given are clear, quickly responded to, and the riders will manage their space on the road as a single, group entity. I've ridden in groups of  less than 6 where I've felt unsafe because the group all ride as individuals with huge gaps between riders, riding in the gutter, and generally being more of an obstacle to other traffic.

In short, it depends on the riders, but I'd certainly leave a group if I was unhappy with how they were riding. Nothing is more important to me than safety of me and the riders I am responsible for.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/roadies-how-many-crashes-in-your-club/

I left an entire club, and started a new one, of sorts, to get away from idiots.

I've ridden in huge groups at high speeds over large distances, and a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph were ropey enough to scare me into leaving a club.

Dovebiker

IME 20 is about the optimum size on country roads

WHAT?

PERHAPS IF YOU RIDE ON THE Canadian prairies. In the UK that size group is not Optimal. Far far from optimal.

I’ve ridden in huge groups at high speeds over large distances, and a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph were ropey enough to scare me into leaving a club.

Gotta love when 25mph on a club ride is considered "pootling". For me, this would be "thrashing my tits off"!

OOI, did you try anything to improve group riding in your old club before you left? Like any club, ours also has great variations in group riding skills across the various sections and it would be great to be able to offer riders opportunities to improve their own skills - something that a surprising number of riders seem unwilling to take up.