[Closed] bunch road riding, whats the LAW.

I'm not aware of any numerical limit.

I've been on plenty of bigger group rides too.

I don't believe there is any law. Highway code recommends that you do not ride more than 2 abreast, but I don't think even that is written in law.

I couldn't find a law on it either when I looked a few years ago. Common sense dictates that you break up big groups into a few smaller ones - usually self-selected ability based groups. Everyone has a more fun time if you keep the groups sensible. Riders and other road users alike.

No legal maximum. Just apply a bit of common sense - our club splits big bunches into smaller ones of around ten but it does depend: if thirteen turn up it's unlikely to be two groups of 6 & 7 unless there's an obvious split in speed/ability. Let the faster group have a couple of minutes head start.

Could it be dangerous riding as you don't leave braking distances between you?  I have always found this a bit weird.  Trucks slipstreaming is seen as dangerous.  Bikes slipstreaming is not.

It would be cse law not statute that set a limit but I have never heard of any case law on bunch riding.

I doubt it TJ, you can see some of whats in front of you, you are hopefully with riders you trust, there are systems for verbal warnings within the group etc, very different to being in cars.

Cars have indicators and brake lights?

As I say - its just something I find weird - entrusting my safety to those around me who are riding too close together for proper observation.  .

I’m not aware of any defined maximum in law. I also don’t know how that would even be enforced or how you’d define who is offending if say two independant groups of X met becoming a group of Y. Would they cease to be offending when one group passed the other or would you have to overtake one at a time, that kind of nonsense.

If it were defined in law you’d also then have the rabbit hole of defining a ‘group’, ie: minimum distances between riders for them to be considered ‘together’ and other mad stuff like are you a group only if you are intentionally riding together etc.

in the legal sense I think you’re just a bunch of people on the road at the same time, who happen to know each other and be heading in the same direction, much the same as a bunch of people in cars driving somewhere in convoy.

The maximum bunch size permitted in a road race for non-elite races is 60 starters - but you may get multiple bunches riding on a single circuit of 7-10 miles and starts are usually staggered with fastest group first, slowest last so there's little risk of one group catching another.

IME 20 is about the optimum size on country roads - if riding in pairs in a paceline and then the first pair peels-off single-file and goes to the back meaning there'll be 3-abreast at times. Highway Code isn't law, only advisory.

The whole 2-abreast thing is a bit of a misnomer because even a single rider in 'prime' position means an overtaking vehicle will need to cross the white line, so provided a group of riders keeps to one side of the road, what's the problem?

Braking distance? The whole point of being in a bunch is that you have the handling skills and trust in the other riders that everyone knows what they are doing - hence the importance of hand-signals and calls from the lead riders to warn those behind of potential hazards ahead. That's why it's a good idea that people join a club and ride with experienced riders to ensure they're familiar with the drills - the problem with sportives for example is you get a wide mixture of experience and abilities.

Sounds like the main law that applies is the universal "Don't be a dick".  10 riders in a group refusing to work with the traffic would be seen as more of a problem than a group of 20 who are considerate to other road users.

Regarding the legal situation of riders "tailgating" each other, there was a case a few years ago between riders in the same group where one had caused a crash.  The ruling was (quite sensibly) that the riders had jointly chosen to ride closely together and thus accept the risks associated with doing so.

Quite different from a lorry tailgating strangers, both in terms of joint acceptance of risk, and of course, the risk posed by the thing behind crashing into the thing in front (90kg at 20mph vs 44,000kg at 60mph)

Haven't done much club riding in the last year but it's all about trust. New people get shown the way and you also learn those to be wary of. I've split and gone solo several times before when I don't trust the group or it's just too large (over 16 is too big on the busy roads around us. Best rides are with a small well-matched group or two up, unfortunately, I'm now not well matched due to losing fitness due to having a young child a home.

Ta for that PDW

Odd that in other circumstances ( S&M ) that the law said the opposite but that would be a clear ruling which is good.

No law that I'm aware of.  Last night I did 50 miles in a group of 12 which is about as big as my club goes.  Beyond that it splits into smaller groups, and last night there were a couple of sections where we split into two groups of 6 with a gap between us to make it easier to pass.  I actually crashed on a ride with the same club on Saturday (9 riders in the group) when two riders touched wheels but I understood the risks before I started doing group rides so it hasn't stopped me getting back out with them.

I think 10 or so is about the max for rural roads. But it still takes discipline not to end up a sprawling line.

I've tried to split a large group into groups of 6 for road sections a couple of times (riding 2 abreast to create a small car sized bunch) but it always fails as riders either all go at once, or single out quickly to their own speed rather than trying to stay in a bunch.

Thankfully we are just linking up trails with short sections of road and after a few impatient passes you tend to collect a driver that is either more patient or less confident and they follow along slowly for a few minutes and block the other drivers, this is a good thing as generally one driver overtakes having spotted a car spaced gap further up the road, but then 3 or 4 more will follow and get stuck as there is no where to pull back in for oncoming traffic.

our club tries to keep to 10, 12 max, and even then we might consider splitting to two with 'line of sight'* between the two groups so we aren't an obvious gammon inciting peloton.

* Maybe 100 yards, and then dropping riders on corners if necessary to keep it moving.

In a few weeks time the annual Liverpool chester Liverpool bike ride takes place,thousands of cyclists all going the same way on mass and from the start few miles in  there is a roundabout onto a 50 mph road off a 30 mph road, the cyclists continue across the roundabout the cars mostly want to try and turn left down the 50 mph road and cant because of the sheer number of cyclists, this causes aggression form the motorists.

How do you control all those individual cyclists, where and how do you instruct them to cycle in small groups, how do you control their speeds, riding skills, experience of road riding etc.

Bit like middle lane hoggers on the motorway,

Then change the tag cyclists to the tag motorists same problem.

The maximum bunch size permitted in a road race for non-elite races is 60 starters – but you may get multiple bunches riding on a single circuit of 7-10 miles and starts are usually staggered with fastest group first, slowest last so there’s little risk of one group catching another.

It can be 60 or 80 depending on the circuit. Concurrent racing is frowned upon but not specifically disallowed. It brings extra risk in that if there's a crash in the front group, you've got the issue of a second group of potentially 60 riders (plus convoy vehicles) bearing down on it at 25mph...

In terms of non-racing there is no limit. The simple reason being that what if there was a limit of [x] and a group of [x] riders went out for a ride and they overtook another rider (or group of riders)? At that point there would be [x] +1 and if there was an incident, accident etc someone could come along and say "ah but there were [x] + 1 riders in that group and the law says [x] so you were breaking the law".

It's unworkable - and besides there are plenty of situations where a group of 15-20 might be fine but other situations where a group of even 6 might be difficult depending on road layout, traffic, riding abilities, even time of day (loads of roads round here which I'll happily ride at night with near zero traffic but never during the day).

The 2-abreast thing is a common misconception as well. It is not against the law to ride more than 2-abreast., The Highway Code uses the words MUST (and MUST NOT) and SHOULD / SHOULD NOT. MUST referes to a legal point - the text itself is not usually the actual law but it references the law. SHOULD is just guidance.

The exact wording in Rule 66 is that cyclists SHOULD NEVER ride more than 2-abreast which is really really strongly advising against it while also acknowledging that at times it may be unavoidable (eg a group of 10 riders, in 2 x 5 formation overtaking a lone rider or vice versa). It's obviously impractical for the entire 10 riders to single out, overtake (or be overtaken) and re-form so you just get on with the overtake. Cars doing an overtake are 4 abreast / taking up the entire road so given that bikes don't take up an entire lane, they can just get on with it (as quickly and safely as reasonably practical).

The challenge of course is explaining any of that to the lobotomised moron that passes for the average driver these days...

Large groups can be a pain around country lanes when there are never safe places to pass more than a single rider.

Be better if they broke up into groups of 3 or 4 as you shouldn't be holding up traffic for miles at a time.

Be better if they broke up into groups of 3 or 4 as you shouldn’t be holding up traffic for miles at a time.

Except that it is very rare for it to be 'miles at a time'

the bikes are traffic - not holding up traffic

Having said that I did once come across a large group - 50 plus in 2 or 3 smaller groups and so many cars were waiting to get past it was about 5 miles before I got past them.  they were certainly being antisocial in that any vehicle holding up that much traffic for that long should have and indeed is legally obliged to pull over to let queues clear

Bunches of 30+ ride through here from Edinburgh every weekend in summer holding up local drivers as cars can't possibly pass their spandex pride parade safely. Often for miles.
It doesn't really matter what the law says, Ride in a bunch of 30 on the open road and you're a selfish dick. There's no reason a Group of more than 20 couldn't just do the decent thing and split into 2 groups other than Nigel and Benjamin's need to be seen in the same group as the club cat2 superstars of course.

You seem to have contradicted yourself there tj.  Yes bikes are traffic but they also hold up traffic.  18mph bikes riding along 40mph roads are holding up traffic.  In the same way an 18mph tractor is holding up traffic.

Where I live you can be stuck behind them for miles, yes 2 or 3 miles at a  time as the roads are narrow, twisty, have narrowing sections, when you get a break there is oncoming traffic etc,.

As a said, smaller groups who are distanced apart and cars could get past.  As a cyclist that is the approach I would take rather than pulling over.

You MUST not ride more than two abreast. Simple. In our club groups are restricted to no more than 9, because when riding "through and off" an odd number works better. It's also two abreast because this is a smaller group to overtake. Also the inside group will ride closer to the kerb than when riding "bit and bit" aka team time trial style.

Road racing is different, and under the control of the local police. Circuits are authorised and riders are inside a marshalled rolling bubble of safety. Riders are still responsible for their actions and must obey the highway code at all times. Cross a double white line is an instant DQ, for example. Numbers will be limited based on circuit.

Circuit race bunch size is limited to numbers allowed on the circuit. Hillingdon has a limit of 80, which can be one big race (Archer Spring criterium) or two smaller races as we often race split across age or BC categories.

Sportives are a free-for-all. I only ride closed road ones!

Not BRD ride OP?

I agree 2 abreast group of 10 is best for over taking,(5x2) how has the general reaction of cars been compared to 10 single file?

You MUST not ride more than two abreast. Simple.

My cat is the reincarnated form of Elvis. Simple.

But equally wrong, even if it seems like a nice idea.

https://twitter.com/surreyroadcops/status/1005152103403319297?s=21

Could it be dangerous riding as you don’t leave braking distances between you?

That's the only "legislation". Riding too close/tailgating/whatever.

It's a bugger to prosecute tho (Don't think anyone's ever been done in the UK, bike to bike), so they wait until you are following something like a moped or motorbike that has insurance, MOT and a licenced rider, and i know a couple of guys who have received fixed penalties for that. Don't know the detail, anymore than "bugger, just got an FPN for motorpacing my coached rider" on facebook.

I do have a bit of a problem though with relying on the HC and this MUST vs SHOULD argument.

Ignoring for now what the HC says, it is absolutely right in principle and fact that riding as a tight, small, group 2 up or even possibly 3 up presents an obstacle that is easier to pass in most situations than a longer file of singled out riders. The exception to me is a straight road with a width that is 2 cars plus a cyclist plus a reasonable bit more to allow the 1.5m approx that they need to pass us and each other safely,.

The issue I have is that the HC also says we should (not must) single out on narrow, busy and twisty roads, and if we rely on semi-ambiguous wording in our favour for the allowance to ride abreast, we can't easily say it's only "should" on the narrow and twisty section and thus have our cake and eat it.

And in fact, these narrow and twisty roads are exactly the ones where 2 abreast is safer because it will generally prevent all but the nutter overtake, and even the nutter overtake has a shorter exposure.

So realistically when leading a group I will split it to smaller LoS group(s) if needs be, instruct to ride 2 up and keep it tight where possible, if we do start to lengthen as often happens on hills be mindful to try to keep as groups with gaps rather than end up as an extended line that cars have to overtake in one go (allow for leapfroggers).

But I'll also admit that at times I will request the group to single out solely to be seen to be doing what the drivers want to see us doing even if it does make the group longer. And then I'll ride the group at an appropriate distance from the edge / in the carriageway to dissuade the overtake anyway. You can't win an argument with an idiot based on reasoning and rather than present as 2 abreast and cause them to get all het up, avoid the issue by doing what they think you should do, even if it isn't what you really should.

And yes, if necessary I will pull in to allow cars to pass.

Interestingly (well for me, and i realise no-one asked), Spanish law treats a group of riders as one unit in some cases, eg. if the first riders enter a 'clear' roundabout and a car subsequently enters, it must yield to the following riders.  Or if a green light changes as a group is riding through.  Common sense really, but you have to put a lot of faith in the driver's awareness of the law when you're the 8th wheel going onto a roundabout at 45kmh with a car already on it!

Any more interesting Spanish law on cycling bob ?

I Vaguely remember you could ride on the motorway if there was no other road to a destination and there wasn’t a no cycling sign 🙂

Is there any law on maximum number of riders in one group for riding on the road?

Forgot to finish my post off, "2" is the maximum technically. Or maybe 3 if you ride 3 abreast.

Do BC have a guideline? I know we have guidelines here for a maximum group size of 12. But most ignore it outside of the "big" cities. As it's pretty pointless when you might only see a dozen cars an hour.

Pretty pointless IN the cities as well, as the speed limit is pretty much 50kph or less on any road you are likely to use.

You SHOULD ...

• never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bend

That's in HC rule 66.  Note use of SHOULD.

That’s in HC rule 66.  Note use of SHOULD.

(IANAHCE)

Rule is the incorrect term. Guideline.

Should is also incorrect. Recommended.

MUST is used when it is a law.

Next thing you know you will suggest that we should be single file on country roads, over to the left....

We are also 'banned' from flashing lights to give way, sounding horn between 11pm and 7am, parking on the wrong side of the street etc.

You also MUST (so this is law) using parking lights if parked on a road with speed limit over 30mph at night.

You also MUST (so this is law) not use your mobile in the event of an accident on the motorway, you MUST walk to the emergency phones.

The law  and the highway code is an arse....IMO

The MUST/SHOULD distinction in the Highway Code is as much about what you may be prosecuted for as how to behave on the road. So you can be prosecuted for breaking the rule of law behind a "MUST clause" but not a "SHOULD clause" but the latter may be taken into consideration if you were being prosecuted for the first case.

A lot of the "MUST" cases get ignored anyway (like the parking lights example) unless it actually causes a problem.

@mat_outandabout - the HC uses the term "rules"  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

You also MUST (so this is law) not use your mobile in the event of an accident on the motorway, you MUST walk to the emergency phones.

Never knew that one. Wondering what the reasoning is behind that. Whether it's to establish your location, or prevent you from standing in harms way?

Any more interesting Spanish law on cycling bob ?

I Vaguely remember you could ride on the motorway if there was no other road to a destination and there wasn’t a no cycling sign

Sarcasm detector is beeping 🙂

I know of a few stretches of motorway (well, 3 lanes and a hard shoulder - not full-blown autopista) where our local federation lobbied to get cyclists allowed.  As a lot of the roads here go up narrow valleys, there often isn't a practical alternative road.

When you join via the slip road, you get the usual mopeds/horses etc prohibited signs, but the cyclists one is a triangular warning.  I use them only when necessary -  the big chunks of lorry retread on the shoulder scare me!

Yes bikes are traffic but they also hold up traffic

And bikes get held up by traffic.

Rule is the incorrect term. Guideline.

Should is also incorrect. Recommended.

Well, the highway code website (the official .gov.uk one) says 'Rule 66' and it says 'SHOULD' so that's why I quoted it.

I am aware that SHOULD is only a guideline, which is why I highlighted it.  The 'MUST's have citations and links to laws.

Relatively inexperienced road rider here.

I find that the maximum group size that I would feel safe riding in is very much governed by the skills and experience of the riders in the group. I'd be happy riding 10+ in a group that are competent, focused and understand the basics of tight, group riding where instructions given are clear, quickly responded to, and the riders will manage their space on the road as a single, group entity. I've ridden in groups of  less than 6 where I've felt unsafe because the group all ride as individuals with huge gaps between riders, riding in the gutter, and generally being more of an obstacle to other traffic.

In short, it depends on the riders, but I'd certainly leave a group if I was unhappy with how they were riding. Nothing is more important to me than safety of me and the riders I am responsible for.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/roadies-how-many-crashes-in-your-club/

I left an entire club, and started a new one, of sorts, to get away from idiots.

I've ridden in huge groups at high speeds over large distances, and a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph were ropey enough to scare me into leaving a club.

Dovebiker

IME 20 is about the optimum size on country roads

WHAT?

PERHAPS IF YOU RIDE ON THE Canadian prairies. In the UK that size group is not Optimal. Far far from optimal.

I’ve ridden in huge groups at high speeds over large distances, and a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph were ropey enough to scare me into leaving a club.

Gotta love when 25mph on a club ride is considered "pootling". For me, this would be "thrashing my tits off"!

OOI, did you try anything to improve group riding in your old club before you left? Like any club, ours also has great variations in group riding skills across the various sections and it would be great to be able to offer riders opportunities to improve their own skills - something that a surprising number of riders seem unwilling to take up.

did you try anything to improve group riding in your old club

A bugbear of mine for sure..... riding in groups is a skill that needs to be learned. When i started riding road (30-odd years ago) my club had 'Old Ken' that would take newbies under his wing. Which largely meant him following you round barking out instructions at you.... MOVE UP! DON'T HALF WHEEL! CLOSE THE GAP! DON'T SIT UP AFTER THE HILL! etc. And the newbies took it because they were the times.

I'm now frankly a bit of an Old Ken myself, albeit with a more touchy feeley 2018 approach to 'suggesting improvements' - but even then there's a breed of newbie that simply won't accept they aren't a god of the road. Maybe it's the area i live and the 'new golf' aspect, but they are generally white, male, middle aged, and judging from the bikes they ride (which are always better than mine) earning good Surrey wages. And some of them are pretty fit, can happily ride on their own at decent speeds and now want to join a club, so they can ride in a group and pretend to be Brad. And have none of the spatial awareness / learned capability to be in a group at that speed. Yet when you offer advice......

We do have proper fast groups that to an extent are 'invitation only' (they aren't but if they think someone's acting like a nob and won't listen to advice they can very quickly put the hammer down at the right time and with an ethos of pull or be dropped, can make someone's day quite hard). Equally if someone is considerate but inexperienced and prepared to listen they will teach them the usual through and off and the like.  But in the inters and social groups then it would have to be major before we asked someone not to come again, and you just hope they pick it up before causing a big problem.

a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph

Is it just me that thinks 30-40kph is pretty quick?

I'm a member of 2 clubs.  One is a club which has been around years and while the old hands know the ropes, and there is coaching for juniors, there wasn't historically much in between.  Around the time I joined they set up a new "social" section of easier rides than the traditional club rides, but no-one coming through those groups ever got any real training in group riding and all the established riders stuck to the sections they'd always been in so didn't pass that knowledge on.  I rode with the traditional sections and got told to do by the 70 year olds (our Old Ken was a Bernard ;)) but there has been some muttering about the riding discipline in the newer groups (as well as people muttering about why rides need to be listed on facebook etc because surely everyone knows that you just turn up at 9am on a Sunday morning...).

The other club didn't exist when I joined my first club, but then started meeting basically at the end of my road.  I waited to see how it developed but have joined it this year - it's now big enough that it can get 100 riders out on a Wednesday evening.  They are a *lot* more disciplined on group rides, with proper ride briefings explaining the calls and how to ride as a group, they manage numbers by getting people to sign up to events on facebook and making sure there are enough ride leaders to split into groups of about 8-10 (and if there aren't enough ride leaders to make more groups they declare the ride full).  They also run step up rides for people wanting to move to the next group up.  You can really see the difference between the two clubs when you see them out riding.  Having said that, when I crashed last weekend it was with this club...

Is it just me that thinks 30-40kph is pretty quick?

Doesn't seem unreasonably quick for a tight group on an open road. I can often do the low end of that range on my own, and I wouldn't say I'm fast.

If you are in a tight, well organised, group then 35-40kmh is reasonable on the flat. I've been in such a group and if you aren't on the front you are covering the brakes as even a slight variation in pace up front means a sit up (to air brake) and/or a dab of brake. For short periods (or the final effort/sprint home) then 50kmh+ is not out of order.

As above, riding in a group is a skill that needs to be learnt, when our club started there were some who'd ridden as a group before and some, like me, who hadn't. We had to learn the ropes and it took about six months of slowly getting better until we trusted each other and could ride in close proximity. I've not ridden in the road groups for a couple of years now, I'd have to refresh those skills.

I know of a few stretches of motorway (well, 3 lanes and a hard shoulder – not full-blown autopista) where our local federation lobbied to get cyclists allowed.  As a lot of the roads here go up narrow valleys, there often isn’t a practical alternative road.

You're allowed (by law) to use an autovía if there's no alternative - there's a stretch near where I live where cyclists are allowed, and that's despite the (incorrect) "no cyclists" sign on the slip road. That said, I really hate riding on it, we generally don't use it - riding past a motorway slip road (either entry or exit) on a bike is not a nice experience!

Spanish law is fantastic - a group of riders is a single unit (like a juggernaut) so if rders 1 & 2 enter a roundabout the rest of the group follows and any vehicles coming onto it must yield to you in the way that they'd yield to a long vehicle making a turn. It keeps the group together.

I've done ride leading on numerous events, guided rides etc and the "group riding" (in the loosest possible sense of the word) never ceases to amaze me. One in the gutter, one by the centre line and they assume they're riding "2-abreast". Constant surging, use of brakes, weaving, eating, drinking. People stopping (for a photo, mnechanical etc) and the rest of the group stops behind them spilling out into the carriageway. It's like a compete brain removal and as @theotherjonv said above, trying to educate them is like walking a tightrope, especially in the more corporate groups. Absolutely no barking instructions, it has to be done in a tactful suggestive way that perhaps Sir/Madam might find it easier if they possibly just maybe [s]GOT OUT OF THE ****ING ROAD[/s] could perhaps move over into the verge.

Don't be a knob. Applies to both cyclist and motorist.

Please be aware that cyclists are generally not obstructing other traffic. That term would suggest preventing their passing at all. All a group of cyclists is doing is preventing  one form of road user moving as fast as they would like. There is nothing wrong with that what so ever. No difference to a lorry doing 40 up a hill when a car might do 50.

I haven't see a road where overtaking isn't eventually possible. In the UK anyway. It may be a couple of miles until a space but that's nothing. A flashing blue light will get any group of bikes to pull over and no one else needs to go anywhere in such a hurry that occasionally losing 5  or 10 minutes is a problem. Stuff desire I mean need. However , of course, consideration on both parts is much nicer. Generally the whole thing is lack of tolerance. As a country we are good at that. Bloody selfish. Just the same as the jerk on a down hill track who whinges because a slower rider gets in his way.

Please be aware that cyclists are generally not obstructing other traffic. That term would suggest preventing their passing at all.

Generally, meaning sometimes they are.  A two a breast group of cyclists riding in a bunch of 50 on winding narrow roads are preventing anyone passing.  A single cyclist on the same roads is not.

But, as per the parody thread. As a car driver, overall you will inevitably be held up by other car drivers more than by bikes. Does that mean 50 people should not get in their cars and sit nose to tail in a jam if it ends up delaying a cyclist?

Not saying that you shouldn’t be considerate if you are riding in a group or you shouldn’t limit numbers, but in the mind of the general public, this is always about cyclists ‘holding up the traffic’

Spanish law is fantastic – a group of riders is a single unit

/echo 😉

As of 2015, passing cyclists with 1.5m became law, meaning the solid centre line can be crossed in order to pass horses, tractors, cyclists etc. Not aware of it ever being enforced though you notice it's fairly widely respected when you cross the border. Close-passing cyclists seems to be a sport in France.

If you are in a tight, well organised, group then 35-40kmh is reasonable on the flat.

Doesnt sound like any club run I've been on!! Sounds more like a chaingang.

Chaingangs are much quicker than that! A friend told me about going out on the weekly Leeds chaingang -on the way back they were doing 35kmh on this hill  https://www.strava.com/segments/847624  he said that bit was bloody hard work!

Chaingangs are much quicker than that! A friend told me

Wow

It's mostly elites and the equivalent of 1st cats cracking out some distance. So it'll be ~40kph for ~3 hours if the route is mostly flat/open roads.

And yes, i tried to improve the club's standard of riding. And gave up. Along with a couple of other guys, one of whom has also left the club following an easily avoidable accident. The other guy only races in their colours (he's been a member since he was 10 or 11, and they basically bankrolled his amateur career, so he feels indebted to them.)

As a car driver, overall you will inevitably be held up by other car drivers more than by bikes.

Depends where you live.  There is very little traffic where I live so once past the bikes I am unlikely to be held up by any drivers.

a bunch of club riders pootling around at 30-40 kph

Then

It’s mostly elites and the equivalent of 1st cats

But they are not awesome enough for you!!

No, they just wobble too much, and can't hold a wheel.

No, they just wobble too much, and can’t hold a wheel.

1st cat racers who cant hold a wheel?

I’m loving that you can only be riding in a chain gang if it’s above a certain speed

I’m loving that you can only be in a chain gang if above a certain speed

Traditional club speak terminology.
Club ride = the social pace thingy, maybe with a few sprints for roadsigns etc but basically a long ride with a café stop, usually a no-drop rule.
Chaingang = the proper racer training ride thingy, 2-3hrs full gas, stop for nothing, if you get dropped it's because you are weak and feeble.

I loathe attempted chaingangs on the open road there's invariably far too much traffic to make them safe or enjoyable and equally invariably there's at least one dickhead in there who thinks it's an excuse for him to get some extra KOMs by using it as a lead-out train. Outdoor velodromes make for great chaingang training. When I was at uni in Cardiff they used to run winter road bike sessions on Maindy Velodrome (which is quite shallow and floodlit) and it'd be a nice paceline for a bit and then a whistle would blow and it would swap to through-and-off chaingang. December time it'd be steady away, by February/March time the chaingangs would be averaging about 27mph. They ran it as pyramid training, essentially group interval work.

1st cat racers who cant hold a wheel?

Yes.

Do you know what the entry requirement for an elite or "1st cat" licence in Sweden is?

Ability to pay club subs and a few hundred sek to the federation.

That's it.

What makes it worse is that you'll almost always get into races too. So you don't need to be able to hold a wheel, just 5w/kg. And try not to take anyone out before the race sorts itself out.

Do you know what the entry requirement for an elite or “1st cat” licence in Sweden is?

Ability to pay club subs and a few hundred sek to the federation.

Oh right, so we are not really talking about the same things then are we. You crack on with being awesome.

In our club (Twickenham CC), you start with the beginners and learn group riding. You can be an international triathlete with a 450w FTP, but you will still ride with the beginners, with 2-3 experiences club riders, often one of whom will be a coach. Only when you can demonstrate safe group riding,do you progress to whichever group matches your speed and fitness. Exemptions are given for riders from established clubs - Wobbly Wheelers RT may not get one 😉

We keep groups to less than 10, seven is typical. Larger is frowned on. Our chairman get the phone calls if a group behaves badly. Singling our for narrow roads and splitting to allow cars passage is typical begaviour

And for speed, 30-40 kph, with an average speed of about 33 kph would put you in the medium fast group I tend to ride in. The 1/2/3 Cat racing group will be 5 kph faster, but this is on flat fast roads. I normally race E12 on our Tuesday chain gang as it feels easier!!!

our group was once pulled over by a police car for riding through and off.  On a wide A road. Without traffic. In Surrey.

Singling our for narrow roads and splitting to allow cars passage is typical begaviour

Your club sounds like a considerate one.  A good example of sharing the roads.

The club is in Twickenham...gets busy doing laps of Richmond park!!!

our group was once pulled over by a police car for riding through and off.

What did he say and how did you respond?

I politely explained the Highway Code and she was pretty good about it. That was a few years ago.

AA, Richmond Park is the preserve of the London Dynsalow. And has a 20 mph speed limit that is enforced for cyclists (sometimes).

We ride out to Surrey instead.

AA, Richmond Park is the preserve of the London Dynsalow.

From my infrequent visits to the place, Richmond Park is the preserve of virtually every cyclist (and triantelope) within 12 miles of it! Or at least, it is if you go mid-morning on a Sunday.

@anagallis_arvensis

Oh right, so we are not really talking about the same things then are we. You crack on with being awesome.

Why do you have such a problem with someone who's simply a better, faster, more experienced rider than you being honest and sharing his experience?

Why do you have such a problem with someone who’s simply a better, faster, more experienced rider than you being honest and sharing his experience?

How do you know he is. He started talking about a club run pootle and then said it was 30-40kmph. Thats a fast club run in any of the clubs I've been in and looking at friends in other clubs around the country I know its the same in others. Shorter rides and chain gangs do those speeds but it would need to be a pretty focussed racing club to have regular club runs over 30-35kmph. In fact the average age of club riders seems to be getting much older and young racers dont seem to do many club runs anymore. My local shop ride is much quicker. Then he said that they were first cat racers who couldnt hold a wheel which sounds like bollocks in my book. Then it turns out he was talking about Sweden and all you need to be a first cat is some cash..sounds like wriggling to me.

Is it important?

The answer to the original question is "no". It could have stopped there, really 🙂

Is it important?

Nope

You and I both know fine well he is. Only one of us has a problem with it.

You and I both know fine well he is.

I havent any clue about him other than his bollocks written here. Although to be fair if he thinks 40kmph club run is a pootle he must be quick.