[Closed] british xc

no its not penalising, its line choices to gain an advantage.
its pretty common in lots of other events.

the skill factor comes in to it over and above simply fitness.

OK, another bonkers idea:

How about a lap consisting of a singletrack climb into a multi-line decent. Grid the start on combined weight of bike and rider (heaviest first) which then goes straight into a bottleneck.

Call it "Revenge of the Bifters"

Hoopdriver, I dont understand why you are being a cock about this.

Im simply looking at ideas to make a simple XC race a bit more interesting and to make skill a factor in the race rather than simply fitness.

But skill [i]is[/i] a factor, and I guess that's the issue. Admittedly less so than DH, but isn't that one of the differences? Fitness is more important, but skill less so.

That's not to say that skill isn't required, nor that races aren't sometimes decided on skill.

I'd be interested to see how any system worked out, and would wish you well in trying it, but I think it would introduce a significant degree of unfairness.

Sorry, wasn't meant as a pop.

Was almost serious. The problem I found when I was I was unfit was that I would be ratcheted down the order by people climbing fast and then getting stuck behind them on the downs.

At Gisburn last year I made the decision while recceing the course to walk the tricky (in my mind) steppy section about 1/2 way round lap. I had ridden it but reasoned doing 10-12 laps or so I would more than likely crash once at least, which may have been the end of my race. I reckon it cost me at least 10 secs a lap, but over the 12 hours I could live with that. I did of course ensure I kept out of the way of better riders (some of whom I passed again on the next climb).

Oldgit. I think your comment about age ie no bmx as a nipper, is a good one and explains why some of the jumpy type riding just don't come naturally to me.

Im not sure on what you mean by unfair.
the idea being that if you cant ride a section then you go back and take an alternative slower route or try again.

Having done some xc racing the complaints ive come across are that riders run sections rather than ride them, simply because its quicker, but if you were penalised for running then the whole idea is that a more skilled rider gains advantage. thus equalizing the skill/fitness a bit.

Im still not sure on how it will work, but any helpful ideas are welcomed.
not the Biftas thing please.

Hoopdriver I know what you mean, and for me.

Id like the downs to be wide enough with line choices that the less fit rider can gain some advantage.

And again trying to equalise the balance between skill and fitness.

I know that the fastest riders will be both fast and skilled, but the best bit about racing is the middle order (where I usually race) where people are racing more closely and any slight advantage gained through skill is rewarded.

I'm not sure alternate lines/stop-go penalties/other weirdness is really necessary. There really aren't many courses out there where a rubbish but strong rider will match an equally strong but non-rubbish one. The more skilled rider will always have an advantage, all else being equal. There are certainly elements of course design that it'd be good to see -- I think that sections that are quicker to run than ride should be left for cyclocross 😉 Descents with plausible overtaking points would also be good.

On the other hand, if people have put the effort in to get fast, it seems only fair to reward that come race day 🙂

I'm new on this forum, but quite interested by this thread.

With regards to the OP and his club, all clubs are made up of volunteers, club coaches will be volunteers. Unfortunately you're unlikely to get a coach out with you if they're not interested in riding XC (whether at a fast pace or easy pace), or they just don't have the time to do more. Perhaps there's no one confident or capable enough to organise a ride. Perhaps you could approach the club about them funding you to become a coach. They may also be worried about the boundaries set out in by their coaching accreditation. I'm close to completing a BC L2 caching qualification - we're not allowed to coach on the road, and we're not allowed to coach in a technical environment.

A club is there for the members, all members are entitled to do what they want. If you want to go out for a hard XC ride (don't call it a club training ride) and invite others along to it. It could be that the club won't support it as there is no demand. It's up to you to help create the demand so that you can get the support of the club committee.

I'm a member of a road club, mainly time trialling, but more and more we have members road racing. Last winter a few of us did our first CX races/season. This year we're hosting a league race. I have intentions to race XC once the CX is over with. Last winter we started up a weekly evening mountain bike ride, stopped over the summer, but it'll start up again soon. There was no club help in starting up the MTB rides or attending the CX races, but once a few of us were doing it the club gave it's full support.

As for money in road racing. I recently finished 3rd in a 4th cat road race. I got an envelope with £20 in it. Not a lot, but I was thrilled with my first ever race winnings 😳 😆

Oldgit - I gather from your posts that you may be local to me as you've keep mentioned Woburn. I'm a member of a local club and would be keen to know your MTB race plans, and could possibly provide some help. Can you message me? (if it's possible - trying to get to grips with this forum).

hammerite there's no email in your profile. As soon as saw the bit about hosting a cx race I wondered.
What club are you in?

The leage doesn't have a venue for round one, and we have been asked to try and sort that. We should know tonight.

WE have a venue at Liscombe Park near Soulbury. It was intended for the cross, but it a bit too rough.

Beds Road?

Yes BRCC.

You have mail Oldgit.

Ah haa
I was going to target some of your riders this year. I was carrying a massive injury last year (that's what happens when you stand under a 600kg pallet) One of your guys got a wheel on me at the end of the VC10 so he is in my sights. That's what it's about though.
Let me know if you need help regards XC racing, I've got a pool of riders in an informal club that are gagging to give it a go.

I've just looked at the results and I think I've pinpointed your name based on the 1 second time gap at that race 🙂 The guy who had you is a pretty good road racer. But it was his first ever CX race and he was riding his Dad's ancient cross bike that hadn't been used for years.

He's invested in some new hardware for the coming season, but still admits to struggling when it comes to handling and technique.

I e-mailed the e-mail address in your profile if that works.

In response to hammerite post re the club, yes i totally understand that these people are volunteers and certain qualifications entitle you to coach one aspect and not another. I did contact as well as the general coaching coordinator the MTB coach. I said in my email to them that I totally understood if they were not able to do so but I got no reply at all. My basic outline for training sessions was to use small loops around the local parks/hills, so no one would get left behind or have to ride slowly. Just a warm up ride to the circuit and then just bomb about the loop and go home. Or maybe find a good hill and do a hill climb session or even find a good downhill and do some timed sessions down there. All I wanted them to do was to come along and give a few pointers e.c.t.

I know I could look at becoming a coach, I do consider it but I not for this club, I found it a little on the unfriendly side, generally, and thats not what I feel makes for a good, encouraging atmosphere.

I think grass route is the way to go for getting people involved and more involved the more likely it is for media (cycling media esp) to take an interest. I think one of the best races I have ridden in is one where you turn up in a car park pay a few pounds and race, everyone starts together and there are a few prices but nothing major, just a good have a go atmosphere.

In terms of courses being not that interesting/technical I can't say that in 20 years I have really ridden that may courses that I thought that was boring, one or two, I like njee20 aren't sold on the MM course but it's all right. The was one course that was almost all single track, it rained and that was boring just because it was impossible to get any speed up.
No one seems to moaning about trail centres but they don't seem to be that technical really. Plus hit things at speed and everything gets harder. I am no way saying that courses shouldn't be technical, I prefer it when they are but but is this really the reason why people don't race?
On the same note people seem pretty happy with their 5 inch bikes at trail centres, so why are they using that as an excuse. Really need to get away from bikes being used as excuses to ride a certain way.

Tell him I'll be out to kick his arse 😀 bloody whipper snapper overtaking an old man with a walking stick.

No one seems to moaning about trail centres but they don't seem to be that technical really. Plus hit things at speed and everything gets harder. I am no way saying that courses shouldn't be technical, I prefer it when they are but but is this really the reason why people don't race?

Agreed, plenty of XC courses on a par with your average trail centre, and generally ridden more 'on the ragged edge' or whatever! IMO that's what a good course should be, one which [i]can[/i] be ridden by most, but gets hard to ride flat out.

Why don’t we introduce a new race format. I suggest similar to an enduro, with timed uphill sections and timed downhill sections.

The system is points based and points are awarded based on the position the riders finish relating to their time on that section.

Each course must have equal uphill and downhill sections (if not certain downhills or uphills may be points loaded to reflect this)

Downhills and to some extent uphills should be suffiently technical/fast/rocky/drops/jumps (hardish) etc but with slower chicken runs.

This should hopefully cater for all types of rider as the points system should level the playing field between xc fitness, technical riding and skills/balls.

The points sytem makes the fastest climber on a climb (making 5 minutes on a climb) equal to the fastest descender on a downhill (making 20 seconds on a downill). So points could be..

Climb 1
1st place =35pts
2nd place= 34pts
And so on

Descent 1
1st place =35pts
2nd place= 34pts
And so on

So best all rounder should win really.

The British XC scene is alive and kicking IMO. Courses are getting shorter to be more spectator friendly and definitely more technical at the National level. The leading guys in Youth/Junior/Expert/Masters/Elite level are both exceptionally fit and extremely talented riders. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of UCI points available in the UK (certainly next year) which reduces the chances of UK riders racing at World Cup level.
One of the other challenges is that the roots of XC racing here are in recreational mountain biking which seems to be speed and fitness adverse and certainly disorganised by nature. By contrast the road scene is race/fitness focussed with cyclo-cross a natural extension to this.
If clubs can be persuaded to start to start to organise mountain bike races in the same way as they do the other cycling disciplines then it would help significantly.

I think the above(ChristoGinger) is a creative idea although going down that route I would go down the Nordic skiing route, where they get points that convert to seconds advantages for the xc race the next day...I believe the sort of idea behind the STW weekender.

BUT, I think as said before, it's not really about coming up with new race formats it's wondering how to attract people to race xc and ultimately, in the future, have some depth of talent that matches the DH boys and girls at a world level. Not sure this is going to be improved with new formats, other than possibly formats that more closely such as what already exists, short track/elimination format and endurance racing.

Not to put down your or anyone else, efforts tho!

MikeWW - Member
The British XC scene is alive and kicking IMO. Courses are getting shorter to be more spectator friendly and definitely more technical at the National level. The leading guys in Youth/Junior/Expert/Masters/Elite level are both exceptionally fit and extremely talented riders. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of UCI points available in the UK (certainly next year) which reduces the chances of UK riders racing at World Cup level.
One of the other challenges is that the roots of XC racing here are in recreational mountain biking which seems to be speed and fitness adverse and certainly disorganised by nature. By contrast the road scene is race/fitness focussed with cyclo-cross a natural extension to this.
If clubs can be persuaded to start to start to organise mountain bike races in the same way as they do the other cycling disciplines then it would help significantly.

POSTED 8 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Agree! mostly!, the riders are talented and don't mean to put them down but in the elite mens for example, they aren't able to give Liam and Oli much competition, who in turn are both a bit off the world cup pace. The UK's depth of real top quality isn't there,(mostly) or at least not yet.

c in c
Just not sure you are in touch with things. UK School Games at the weekend now includes mountain biking. Youths were desperate to get on the teams. More and more club youngsters are interested in mountain bike racing. British Cycling have RSRs set up to further develop mountain bike skills. Do you got to any of the National Series?

Sorry, maybe being stupid but not quite sure what direct connection the above response has to me saying that at elite level we are lacking real depth of talent?
Totally see in the long term the above will help and agreed with you about all but the top elite level racers.
The above sounds great and no I haven't been to a national series race in a long time, they are all rather far from were I live.
I apologise if I am missing something...

I really just don't get this. Why can't people just race XC as it is. How do you develop talent by changing the whole format of an event to the rest of the world.

XC has been going for years, it's pretty pure racing and all the guys and girls work hard at it.
I know you'll all say 'well it's attitudes like yours that stop people entering' If you want to race by your own choice then just turn up and race if you come last come back next week and do better, but don't expect the whole world to change things for you because it's not fair letting fit and fast XC racers have the advantage.
Do we do this in any other sports?

I've never done down hill, I'd love to have a go and I know they'll have to leave the keys under the mat for me to lock up with I'd be so slow, but not for one single minute would I expect anyone to change things so me as an inept downhiller would be on a par with the elite riders.

i was thinking purely points to keep time out of the equation. I was hoping that it would level the playing field to make it cater for all riders - you dont have to be super fit to get a good place if your good at downhill, however uping your fitness/speed would place you better.

conversly being fit fast uphill does not mean you finish well automatically, you also need to have the skills downhills.

it would prove the best all rounder mtbiker i think. Aiming to appeal to both xc riders, downhillers or like most folks those that fit somewhere inbetween.

Echoing MikeWWW's comments, I was at the UK Shools Games in Wharncliffe at the weekend and saw 36 Girls and 60+ Boys up to 16 racing in X Country, Dirt Crit, Uphill and Downhill events over the 3 days. The racing was very competitive and they seemed to be having a great time. I help/coach a 13 year old girl who came second in the 2 XC events in a field full of 16 year olds. Hopefully some of these riders will carry on to bigger things.

Just encase there's any confusion I totally agree with you oldgit, I don't think it should change, I can see some merit in running closely related formats (which to me, endurance racing and short track/eliminator events still fall under the banner of xc) to attract people to the idea of xc. But don't see the need to change it from what it is, a race across country.

Can you imagine Mtbers entering a hill climb competition? There used to be such events but no longer.

not hill climbs as such (that would suck) but ran over a normal course - like an enduro- but the hill sections (with flat bits of normal trail and such) and downhill sections are timed much like the enduro downhill sections are now.

Christoginger, why would a pure hill climb event suck? we run pure downhill events?

I think being fit is seen by some people as cheating. We keep coming back to this false idea of riders who are technically amazing but don't enter XC races because they can't use their skills. IME it's simply not true. Even in a pure DH race physical fitness is a big advantage.

I remeber the last MTB hillclimb I did nearly did for me, I actually crept off and had my mobile ready to ring 999.

not hill climbs as such (that would suck)

Anyone done the Frome Cobble Wobble? On paper it should be the worst value event ever (a fiver for 30 seconds of riding), in reality it was awesome fun. The winner last year wasn't your stereotypical whippet either.

cows_in_cars - Member

Sorry, maybe being stupid but not quite sure what direct connection the above response has to me saying that at elite level we are lacking real depth of talent?
Totally see in the long term the above will help and agreed with you about all but the top elite level racers.
The above sounds great and no I haven't been to a national series race in a long time, they are all rather far from were I live.
I apologise if I am missing something...

I haven't raced xc since I was a teenager, this thread has inspired me to give it ago again.

RE: A timed points up and down hill race, it could be a nice event but it wouldn't be xc, part of the point of xc is you are racing other people rather than the clock, it makes a big difference.

I remember there being some off road hill climb events when I was young, are any still around or is it only the road ones now? Speaking of which Catford HC is next month!

I think when you are so out of touch with the racing scene it is difficult to have an informed opinion. We have people like Kenta Gallagher, Grant Ferguson, Annie Last, Beth Crumpton who are starting to show on the world stage and the only way to compete at Elite level is to catch people in their teens.Have you any idea what it takes to become a world class XC mountain biker?

Eh not really sure why you seem to be attacking me? I am well aware of all those guys, I might not be at the races but still follow them in some form or other. I am in no way saying that they are rubbish but I do feel a bit disappointed watching the world cup races that there is no British presence, apart from Annie Last (and David fletcher and Grant Ferguson in the u23/juniors but we don't get to see them), near the front of the field. And as I said the depth of talent compared to downhill is not there.

And although I have no personal experience of aiming to be a world class xc mountain biker I imagine that hard doesn't even come close. I suspect that it also just as hard (apart from the improved image/media coverage) to be a world class downhiller. I am not anti british cycling. It's hard enough just trying to be an fast-ish amateur racer.

In terms of all the stuff that's put on for the youth riders, I think that's great and would have to say my club for youth riders is AWESOME. But what concerns me, is that, certainly within my local club, (maybe BC is better, and very happy to be told otherwise), there is nothing for them to go onto. They are given endless help and support, training sessions e.c.t but once they are past that age if they want to continue to ride and train off road there is nothing but a slow plod round the hills. I work a lot with young people, not in a sports context but know how so many find it so hard when they loose that support/structure and feel there is nothing for them and thus give up on pretty much anything. I am not saying that we shouldn't be helping youth riders in the slightest (and they will all give up or with al the help in the world they won't give up) but what concerns me is the middle ground. I tried to help the club fill that middle ground but it wasn't really that interested.

Plus the future of the sport doesn't need to just come from youth riders, hence why I think the lack of grass routes/local races is a problem. There could easily be someone out there that is world class potential but just needs an opportunity to have a go. A national level race is not always the best place for that, it's not a bad place, but when I started out I remember looking at national level races and being a bit scared to enter.

I am not trying to slate the top riders we have and happy to admit that my views are just that my views/ experiences but I am not with out knowledge of the sport, I am pretty geeky!

mrmo - it would suck if that were all the race consisted of in my opinion as riding uphill is not very exciting,challenging maybe, oh and its hard;)

So the answer seems to be stop riding so quickly, and let the chubsters go first down all the hills?

So the answer seems to be stop riding so quickly, and let the chubsters go first down all the hills?

The right course and climbing is good. maybe not to watch,

I think you just thought that out loud 🙂

We ran an uphill race for the first time ever this year in January.

It was fifteen minutes of pain for me, just over ten for the winner, but was a lot of fun and then we had the ride back down.

Keighley gate: from Ilkley college to the masts if anyone wants to join us un future

Just to add weight to my no depth in british xc I looked at the world xc rankings (yes I know that there could be some great riders that are missing because of the point system, but its a good gauge) and compared them to the downhill world rankings:
Elite xc mens we have: 4 ranked men in the top 200
Elite xc womens we have: 6 ranked in the top 200 (most a fair way down the rankings)
Elite DH mens we have: 26 ranked in the 200 (with a huge presence up the top of the board)
Elite womens DH we have: 11 in the 200 (again with most of them coming at the top of the board.
(makes great reading on the downhill side!!! very impressive)

Plus it I do think it's a shame that we have lost a number of top xc men, as njee20 said quite some time ago, to the road. Glad that they can get sponsors for themselves but it's not great for xc. Personally I loved seeing Ian Wilkinson ride, a really great character. My best memory from the fort william world championships was Wilko riding out of his skin, yes he wasn't challenging for the lead but was really pushing himself. And then doing his superman across the line! Still doing it on the road, but sad that he's gone for now at least, from mountain biking, when his aim was to make it to the London Olympics, not really going to happen now.

Sancho - Member
Having done some xc racing the complaints ive come across are that riders run sections rather than ride them, simply because its quicker, but if you were penalised for running then the whole idea is that a more skilled rider gains advantage. thus equalizing the skill/fitness a bit.

many years ago I had the same discussion re a section of a race route our club used to organise. It was a very steep rut with lots of roots(rigid/canti/v brake days) It was not called the Widow Maker for no reason!! There were the guys who were in the "it`s a race so it must be hard" camp and some of us who were in the " it is just plain daft and putting people off" camp. On a race day(route was used 3yrs running) the top riders were the ones more likely to get off and run down the hill. Why?? The reason they gave was that falling off and potentially losing points may cost them the championship.
I have never raced and am never likely to and after the crap we had to put up with from some riders I have no wish to get involved in the race scene again as an organiser.
I do think that there is room for grassroots racing and that courses should be set accordingly. Too many organisers lose the plot and want to make their tracks `arder than A.B.Cs race. Just my tuppence worth.
🙄

There is a good reason why a lot of young people regardless of what sport they participate in drop off the radar and that is their parents may not be able to support them any more. I remember travelling the country for a few years with my son when he was into rowing. Something I could not sustain 🙄
Someone mentioned Gareth Montgomery. I rode with Gareth when he was around 10yrs old, his dad and older brother who was also a good rider. There were quite a few young riders around at that time and they all mostly had parents who were into biking and willing to travel as far as was needed to allow their kids to participate in races. Living in SW Scotland means travelling North or South into England at some considerable expense to parents.
There are currently 3 teenagers from the same area as Gareth competing on the circuit supported by their parents. Ross Green, Jenna and Ryan Fenwick. How long they can keep it up, who knows 💡

how do people feel about this;

I mean I think its great

the good riders gained a massive advantage.

The organisers should put tape out to keep the dickhead supporters off the racing line and the riders should learn how to ride.

Plus the future of the sport doesn't need to just come from youth riders, hence why I think the lack of grass routes/local races is a problem. There could easily be someone out there that is world class potential but just needs an opportunity to have a go. A national level race is not always the best place for that, it's not a bad place, but when I started out I remember looking at national level races and being a bit scared to enter.

you should organise one/ a series, then there will be local grass roots events, if more racers did this there would be a healthy XC racing calendar everywhere like there is for road and TT

events don't just magic out of thin air 😉

Sancho - Member
how do people feel about this;

I mean I think its great

that video gets used as a "what not to do" on the BC MTBXC commissaires course

if you want your race to look like that then go for it

the good riders gained a massive advantage.

but go for it if you are keen

If you want to reward skilled riders you put sections in that take a level of skill to ride and a chicken run that takes longer - no running down the difficult route allowed.

the only point i have to make is that I watched my first XC race last weekend. Kullhavy won. boring.

CX is so good to ride but so bad to watch. it's not the coverage to blame but the lack of energy/skill/excitement. i can be excited when i ride XC BUT watching it... no!

i do of course admire the fitness of all the riders that raced on said freecaster live event but - how boring? lots!

watching downhill, wow.

Danny Hart or Kullhavy? Honestly?

Chubby baggy suited clowns, porting huge camelbaks around, filled with sports drinks, first aid kits, energy bars, wearing the latest colours, sporting this seasons helmet du jour, with gps tracking in case we get lost, out for 5 hours, actually riding for 2, as we stop every 10minutes because Jason and Amanda are new to this...
It's not a sport, its a jeffing mobile dinner party.

Nice. And often true.

XC racing is painful and you dont get many hours of riding for your cash plus chance of being shouted at by someone, nasty pile ups at first narrow point, having descents ruined by numpties and so on all put people off. To feel vaguely competitive you need a light bike that somewhat contradicts trends in general trail bikes where 120-160 mm travel and 27-30 lbs weight is now the norm.

That said Thetford and Gorrick pretty much sell out all winter and Beastway does quite well despite being in a hopeless location.

That BUCS is utter ****, Fun for a one off that's about it.

Anyway further to me wanting to run an XC race, it looks like we can get a semi permanent course.
It's a flat course, but classic in the way it turns from open field to tight woodland single track and back again.
don simon, I think I'd still go for counting the first three only -
Seniors all
Women
Juniors
Vets
When I race in the vet on the road that all they do, I'll still have an idea of where I came and who was in front of me.
It'll be interseting to see if there is a market for cheap basic XC racing. I'm thinking of winter Sundays and summer evening.

robsoctance, yes XC is by and large boring to watch, but imo DH is no better, too slow and i don't find any sport that has only one person on course interesting.

Oldgit, i personally think there is a market for a short course cheap midweek race series. The only question is what is your catchment area. Can you get enough riders to cover costs and make it a race.

mrmo
I'd hope to get the Woburn area riders racing. There are several MTB clubs in the area, add the roadies and the unattached and we should have enough.
I'd want it to fit into the £5 mark as our only real cost would be insurance.
A gym owns the land and considers it free advertising, plus they offer discounted membership to anyone riding. I'm also hoping the appeal of a gym, pool, sauna and cafe afterwards might be a draw.
AFAIK all we need first aid wise is someone qualified, which we have several of.

Insurance wise, might be worth talking to the Gorrick folk, as they have a cheaper and (IMO) better option than BC currently offer... It'll help keep your costs down....

One thing that has just crossed my mind that maybe has already been mentioned.
All these innovative ideas for different formats of XC to give riders an allegdly more level playing field - chicken runs, time penalties etc. have one thing still in common with a xc - A winner.
In normal xc - 100 people enter, 1 wins a few get close, the rest race against who's ever near by.
In all these variations - 100 people enter, 1 wins, a few get close, the rest race against who's ever near by.
If you've got 100 people in a race you've got a 1 in 100 chance of winning. Changing rules hasn't made anything more inclusive, or increased and individuals chance of winning.

Danny Hart or Kullhavy? Honestly?

I don't think anyone has said that it's interesting to watch, let alone compared to DH, I don't mind watching either, but I couldn't spend every weekend doing it! It's a bit like comparing the 100m to a marathon though, 4 minutes vs 2 hours. Still, that wasn't the point!

Good shout about Gorrick, suspect Jon would be willing to help - you're not treading on their toes after all 🙂

100m to a marathon though, 4 minutes vs 2 hours

4 mins for a 100m?. No wonder your not a sprinter 🙂

Haha! You know what I meant, DH is 4 minutes, XC 2 hours. So really it's like the 1500m to a marathon, but that's less valid, as both are [i]really[/i] boring to watch, even I can't get bored during the 100m!

An interesting thread so far.

But, this weird idea that XC races are full of roadies out for a day in the mud with no skill is quite frankly bollocks.

I've done a few races of various formats - from DH oriented enduros, to 10 hr races and proper XC.

XC was by far the hardest. You need to be both fit and skillful to win an XC race.

If "skillful" riders want to do better then they need to be fitter. Its a simple as that (and I am firmly in the need to get fitter category). The idea that bunches of technically capable riders are being held up behind XC whippets mincing down descents is pure fantasy. The good XC guys are also flying down the technical bits on their race bikes

I rode my Blur LT round the course at Ten Under the Ben and yes if I had Trek Top Fuel I might have been a bit faster on the climbs but if I'd put a few more hours in training I would have been a whole heap faster. I was occasionally frustrated by catching people on singletrack sections only to see them disapear up the fireroad. But really its down to me, if I had been fitter I would have been as fast (or faster) on the fireroad and still been quick on the singletrack (like the guys who were winning)

The idea that bunches of technically capable riders are being held up behind XC whippets mincing down descents is pure fantasy.

I'm not sure where anyone has said that?

All the people I've ridden with who've raced XC at a decent level were very very good in terms of all round bike/technical skills - but people walking/running the technical sections (for whatever reason) just looks bad - if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?

One of the best XC races I watched was from Australia where you had multiple lines of differing technicality.

[i]if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?[/i]

No.
Sport is sport.

No.
Sport is sport.

Hmmm, so people are concerned about the lack of enthusiasm for XC racing, but the image isn't important? Ok then...

If you want to reward skilled riders you put sections in that take a level of skill to ride and a chicken run that takes longer - no running down the difficult route allowed.

How do you police that though? What if someone tries the hard route and fails, are they then not allowed to get off? It's impossible to implement such sanctions.

people walking/running the technical sections (for whatever reason) just looks bad - if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?

What about walking up the climbs though? There seems a huge sticking point about not letting people walk down the descents, but what about walking up the climbs, where it's far more prevalant? Should that be banned? Should we penalise people for dabbing?

I don't get this "lack of grass routes racing is a problem". In the south east we have

- SUmmit racing
- Eastway
- RATS

all running smaller local races series through the summer. I probably missed some. The people who runs these must take great credit for the effort they put in.

My mid week mtb club ride is typically for me a sufferfest and I am an experienced racer. There are clubs out there.

But given the fluctuation in numbers I just don't think that the average trail rider is interested in going through the pain of racing once they know how hard it is.

Seem to be tying yourselves up in knots, attempting to use the course to modify the riders behaviour to fulfil some pre-ordained ideal, as well as trying to reduce the impact of fitness, and allow 'skillz' to be the deciding factor. Nevermind that the more you specify a particular style of tech section, the fewer venues become suitable, as if finding them isn't already a struggle.

I rode the first UK Grundig race at Strathpeffer; a 16 mile loop that ended up being about 10 miles of running because of the torrential rain and epic conditions, but John Tomac and Thomas Friskneckt seemed ok with it.

The problem is not about 'Oh the fit boys go too fast', or 'The tech sections are too techy or not techy enough', it's about the people who ride mountain bikes today; they don't do racing, they do drive to place, ride/push big bikes slowly up and come down fast then repeat until cake, then drive home.

It's not really a sport for most, it's a leisure activity and there's nothing wrong with that apart from upsetting old gimmers like me.

How do you police that though? What if someone tries the hard route and fails

jumble, you may be in the fortunate position of having a number of series to pick from. Now look beyond the SE. What local series exists in the midlands, south wales, etc. look at Bristol or Birmingham reasonably sized cities what is there on a regular basis?

What about walking up the climbs though? There seems a huge sticking point about not letting people walk down the descents, but what about walking up the climbs, where it's far more prevalant? Should that be banned? Should we penalise people for dabbing?

cx is boring to watch

xc is boring to watch

im fed up of 75 % of the stw community being totall trols with the technical capabilities of 5 year old even when padded up on 6inch "trail bikes

There's a lot of hatred in this thread for people who ride 6" trail bikes isn't there? Pretty sad really - ironic too people complain about those who ignorantly slag off XC whippets then proceed to do exactly the same about others.

BTW I seem to remember seeing a somewhat critical video posted by a certain former Scottish XC champion showing people walking down not very difficult tech sections in a race. But I guess he is just ill-informed too eh?

The problem is not about 'Oh the fit boys go too fast', or 'The tech sections are too techy or not techy enough', it's about the people who ride mountain bikes today; they don't do racing, they do drive to place, ride/push big bikes slowly up and come down fast then repeat until cake, then drive home.

Is this actually a problem though? I mean clearly people like this aren't going to be the next generation of top XC riders, but then it seems highly unlikely that they would have been anyway. There are still plenty of people who like racing, I don't see that the existence of the more recreational riders makes any difference.

seriously Njee, the problem is not riders walking/running difficult bits, it's riders breaking the rules while gettin off/on and walking/running, since you seem ignorant to this rule despite being show it in the other thread, let me remind you again.
[]8.3.8 A rider must act in a polite manner at all times and
permit any faster rider to overtake without obstructing.

That's in the UCI rule book, any race not run under BC rules doesn't technically have to include that, but yes it's common courtesy.

I'm not ignorant to the rule in the least, show me where that's the case? I agree that it's a problem.

However, the problem that refers to is people being in the way, [i]not[/i] people walking. Technically, a slower rider is obstructing quicker ones, and quite possibly obstructing people running, so the whole obstructing riders thing is a totally different issue to the one that is being discussed; which is stopping people running because it looks uncool.

Show me the rule which says you can't get off the bike?

no im sure if youve won scottish xc your more than welcome to comment but i just feel that the capable good xc riders are tarred with the rep that xc is boring and no one can ride owt.
the hated hate the haters as they say...

I think part of the issue is that people actually have jobs and families. Racing hurts and things break but there will come a point when going to work on Monday or being fit for the next race will out way the risks of riding something.

Design a course to the level of the riders, if your aiming for pros, Champery is acceptable, but for a weekly evening series you have to ask if it is?

back to the o-p:

...Why are we so rubbish (at xc racing) when in the early 90’s the uk was a force to be reckoned with...?

was it though?

david baker.

tim gould.

caroline alexander.

and?
.
.
.
er...?

i'm going to blame lack of space/unwilling landowners for the disparity between the success of british Dh racers vs british xc racers.

there are thousands of awesome dh tracks hidden in quiet corners of fields/forests/back gardens/allotments all over britain.

you need a lot more space for good xc course.

oh, and Dh racing looks like fun. perhaps xc courses need to be made much more difficult. with features/lines that offer big advantages* to riders who take them on/have the skill.

(*i'm thinking minutes, not seconds)

well said mrmo.