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As touched upon in the amazing Danny thread, which was almost certainly the wrong place to do it, the state of british xc seems in a pretty poor state.
We have a depth of downhill talent that is only really matched by the French, at the world cups there are a staggering amount of downhillers from the uk that qualify for the final. Yet in cross country in a few talented riders but that’s it, nothing like the depth in downhill.
Why are we so rubbish when in the early 90’s the uk was a force to be reckoned with in xc?
My personal feelings are I feel there is a bit of a go slow culture in xc riding in this country. Noticed a few threads on local rides round here when someone suggested setting up a little race course and bombing around it, as a change, it was totally poo pooed, and the usual plod culture was resumed.
Other than Shred and a very small bits and pieces in MBUK no one covers xc racing magazine wise, were as Dirt has loads on downhill racing. The lack of coverage of British xc has seen many of the better riders cross to the road so they can actually be sponsored.
Racing has got stupidly expensive.
And I can’t speak for other clubs, but my current club is rubbish, it gives the youth riders loads of help and support with racing and supporting them; Which is great obviously, but once you’re out of that age group there is nothing but road rides and one slow, plod around the hills. I tried to get my local club to start an XC training session, as it does loads for the road and triathlon but only the aforementioned plod for mountain bikers. I was told fine, but do it yourself, which is no help when I am not trained in this area and they didn't want it official, which mean if something happened to someone I would be screwed. All I wanted was a coach or someone official, to come along to the sessions; I emailed coaches from the club but got nothing in reply, I was happy do all the work they just had to come along but no. THANKS. I am pretty annoyed about this, as I was happy to give up my time, to do something for the sport but kind of just got it shoved back at me.
Understand that this isn’t important to everyone, but…
You could do a TCL or similar course and get some insurance if liability is your main concern stopping you taking groups out.
I think being fit and fast is more popular now than it was a few years ago. Or at least a lot of the show me your bike threads have fast looking bikes in them. Maybe they are just being used to make going sloooow even easier.
Agree xc racing is expensive, but so is dh and enduro.
These things go in cycles, (no pun), 25 years ago we had no sprinters and world class middle distance athletes, 10 years ago we couldn't move for guys getting to the 100, 200,and 400 final.
With XC, well 20 years ago with Baker, Gould etc, there was only XC to speak of so all the talent went there. Now we XC, marathon, 4X, downhill, and most likely around the same size pool to recruit from.
Because XC racing is hard. It requires commitment and hard work to get and maintain fitness, and the will and ability to race regularly, all things which are absent from the fashion driven pony trekking by bike that modern mountain biking has turned into. The adoption of mountain biking by the chattering classes is good in that it brings people with lots of disposable income into the activity, but it suffers in that it becomes just another hobby, just another leisure activity for the well heeled instead of a sport to train for and compete in.
Ahem, bit ranty there but its changed a lot and not for the better.
But at least there is plenty of used quality bikes that have had very little use available now. Thanks of course to the "chattering classes" upgrading yearly.
The fit and fast thing is true I think. It seems to transpose into running too. 10K races, for example, seem to be as popular as ever, but as a 37 minute runner a few years ago I'd have been well up the field, today I could be in the top 5. Where have all the fast guys gone??
Don't agree with crikey.....fashion driven pony trekking!!! I think it is way better now than ever... I started in the late 80s and enjoy it just as much as day 1. Its true that its getting crowded in some places but I'm prepared to live with that. The chattering classes!! ?? The whole thing that got many people into MTBs is that its not full of "Blue Blazer Commisaire types... I saw a thread earlier today about some "racer" loosing his rag after being held up on a trail centre ride...CALM DOWN...or try some road time trialing instead!..... Long live Freeride!
So true djglover, so true. Just look at marathon times, there used to be tons of UK men around 2:20 at London when Speding and Jones were racing, now that time would get you top 3 Brit!
I wish the trails were as quiet as they were in the mid 80s ,when you could ride all day and not see another cyclist
DH is fashionable because of it's gnar == kids are more likely to stay with it during that late teenage lull in sporting activity and others will be attracted to it due to the excitement. Plus load of other foke with money can do it. DH can still be enjoyable even if you're unfit even though you'll never get that good without being fit.
XC is hard unless your already fit and with it not being "cool" dose not help encourage people into it. It's not seen as exciting and "extreme", even though it can be.
I think also due to all of the continuous sub-categorisation of mtbing when people think of xc they think of something unchallenging technical wise, so dull, rather than just racing that goes up down and across.
Chubby baggy suited clowns, porting huge camelbaks around, filled with sports drinks, first aid kits, energy bars, wearing the latest colours, sporting this seasons helmet du jour, with gps tracking in case we get lost, out for 5 hours, actually riding for 2, as we stop every 10minutes because Jason and Amanda are new to this...
It's not a sport, its a jeffing mobile dinner party.
I think there is a general attitude against xc here.
If we start with the "jey" title. Immediately I see a negative attitude towards crosscountry.
There isn't really a great history in cycling in the UK, not to the same levels as say France, Spain or Italy, in any discipline.
In Spain xc mountain biking and competitive mountain biking xc is big business and downhilling much less so.
Who would you rather be, a lycra clad "jey" boy or a stormtrooping weekend warrior? Talking the talk is alot easier that walking the walk.
+1 Oh Welsh Spanish fella.
Lycra all the way its much comfier than baggy shorts flapping around
+1 Oh Welsh Spanish fella.
Or as we say; olé boyo... 😕
Like it. What's the Spanish for tidy?
'Chulo' or 'Que chulo' are the closest I can get. The 'ch' as in chew so 'chewlow' and not the Welsh phlegmy 'ch'. 😀
Google translate came up with ordenado, which is presumably a literal thing that doesn't capture the essential everything-is-as-it-should-be of the original.
I wish the trails were as quiet as they were in the mid 80s ,when you could ride all day and not see another cyclist
OT: I find it varies in our area Edric. The obvious honeypot gets busy with cyclists, horses, runners and ramblers at weekends for sure. But there are plenty of good trails tucked away that you rarely/never see a soul using. It's just that some take a bit of work to find, sometimes repair and link together, and almost all are cheeky which I know you disapprove of.
Back on topic: it seems strange in a country blessed with so much accessible XC terrain that we suck so badly at racing. Perhaps the sight of us old giffers puffing around puts the kids off. 😆
yes thats true and have considered it, just think it's a shame that what is a pretty performance driven club, road wise, can't be bothered to help someone that wants to help the mountain biking side.You could do a TCL or similar course and get some insurance if liability is your main concern stopping you taking groups out.
I think that recreational wise mtbing is much better than it was 20 years ago, generally,I think it's great that there are loads of people just enjoying riding their bikes. Although a racer at heart I have no problem waiting to past people on the trails e.c.t but do really object to the, almost aggressive at times, go slow attitude that's crept into xc mountain biking. It's almost a fear of having to admit that your not quite as fit/fast as you would like so will make sure you can hide behind the "having fun" tag. Think that, that attitude needs to be dropped and being fast should be something to aim for. Years ago I enjoyed group rides, generally now I can't stand them, I just can't be bothered cycling for five minutes waiting around for ten mins then cycle a bit more. Lucky really that I am happy enough being a loner! Still know my fitness would benefit from being pushed by others.
Road riders seem to have such a different culture, it seems all to be about being fit and everyone out on club rides is aiming to get better, I just don't get that feeling at all from mountain bikers, it's almost should be ashamed of fitness.
Ordenado is 'organised' and not the colloquial 'tidy', chulo is closer to 'cool'. Tidy is accepted I believe, as you South Walians speak a different language, across all walks of life. Chulo is not crude, rude or offensive.
There's always going to be folk who are attracted to the pure fitness of xc racing, the old suitcase of courage and all that.
The OP mentioned XC racers crossing to the road - you have to say that Xc is unusual in that it's a bit of a nursery sport in the way DH definitely is not. Because if you're young and a genuinely strong xc rider, at the sharpest pointiest end of xc racing, why wouldn't you just hit the road? You're training on it 80% of the time anyhow, and that's were the money (well, some) / acclaim / real strong men are. Plenty of top men have taken this path with xc racing as a stepping stone.
This doesn't really speak to the lack of popularity of xc racing at the local level, but it does impact the image of the sport at the very top level IMO - it's a niche of a niche.
Not sure about a plod culture - you do certainly read some badly generic and tired comments on lycra and the xc mindset here in la la land. In reality though, fast riding is always respected. When have you ever been on a ride when people didn't tacitly tip the hat to a strong display of riding? The bloke who cleans the local beast of a climb, or pyar leathers a section of singletrack when everyone else is dibbidy dabbidy. No one bows down and pays homage but it's definitely something that is admired IME.
Back on topic: it seems strange in a country blessed with so much accessible XC terrain that we suck so badly at racing. Perhaps the sight of us old giffers puffing around puts the kids off.
True! I find it odd that with so many people at trail centres week in week out, the huge fields in marathon events and people clambing over each other to get in to mountain mayhem, that we have so little depth in cross country racing. You would have thought there would be some cross over? It's not as if we are even any good at marathon racing aside from Sally Bigham.
to be fast XC you need to be fit, which means you actually have to ride and not just sit in the car park talking the talk.
to be a good DHer you need to be fit, but for the less fit you can buy a skill compensator and seem better than you are.
In reality though, fast riding is always respected. When have you ever been on a ride when people didn't tacitly tip the hat to a strong display of riding? The bloke who cleans the local beast of a climb, or pyar leathers a section of singletrack when everyone else is dibbidy dabbidy. No one bows down and pays homage but it's definitely something that is admired IME.
That is true, but it still doesn't stop group rides generally being a ramble across the hills. The last group ride I did with my local club, people did 'tip there hat' when I out climbed and descended everyone, but the point is I shouldn't be out climbing and descending everyone, I am good but not amazing in anyway really. The ride was such a long drawn out process of covering very little distance that I have not been back. It seems if I want to be fit I have to for go the company that a club should provide...Although, a bit OT, the club is odd to say the least, almost no one cheers you on at races or even says hello, least friend-est club I have ever belonged to.
Not sure about a plod culture - you do certainly read some badly generic and tired comments on lycra and the xc mindset here in la la land. In reality though, fast riding is always respected. When have you ever been on a ride when people didn't tacitly tip the hat to a strong display of riding? The bloke who cleans the local beast of a climb, or pyar leathers a section of singletrack when everyone else is dibbidy dabbidy. No one bows down and pays homage but it's definitely something that is admired IME.
I think I'd have to disagree, while people on the trails might show approval, and something it is something I've experienced (I still haven't been passed and left standing at Llandegla black at 1:15hr), the public face is that of willy waving. Not an attractive place to want to be.
Maybe it's like football and everyone wants to be the goal scorer and no one want to be goalkeeper or even worse a defender.
to be a good DHer you need to be fit, but for the less fit you can buy a skill compensator and seem better than you are.
not if you are actually racing DH.
there are a lot of bling bikes in the bottom half of the field.
he OP mentioned XC racers crossing to the road - you have to say that Xc is unusual in that it's a bit of a nursery sport in the way DH definitely is not. Because if you're young and a genuinely strong xc rider, at the sharpest pointiest end of xc racing, why wouldn't you just hit the road? You're training on it 80% of the time anyhow, and that's were the money (well, some) / acclaim / real strong men are. Plenty of top men have taken this path with xc racing as a stepping stone.
p.s not true in all countries, in Switzerland they are so over run with top ranked mountain bikers that some are considering switching to the road just in the hope of making it to the olympics. Cross country is king there. If I was a top level mountain biker in this country I would be packing my bags for switerland pretty quick!
That is true, but it still doesn't stop group rides generally being a ramble across the hills.
If that's your gripe then maybe the structure is a bit wrong or you're in the wrong club.
Most rowing clubs are geared towards racing but accommodate recreational rowers.
In Spain (Madrid) most shops have a club affiliated and often that club is competitive to the degree that riders are poached and/or transferred. the level is very high and often attracts local pro-riders (Mancebo, de Segovia or Guerra).
Maybe it's the organisations that are the problem. I haven't seen enough to comment on that.
Let's see what the Olympics does.
jam bo, maybe not if your racing, but for the average weekend warrior, it is easier to talk the talk and buy a skill compensator then make claims about your skills going DH. If your not fit no bike is going to make much of a difference climbing a big technical hill.
Crikey; I've never read so much codswallop in all my life.
To me and many others, mountain biking is "another" hobby. Until this year it was what I did to keep fit when not windsurfing or surfing. Most of my " huge" disposable income needs to go on house n home, not on diesel to drive to the coast, so - and I'm entirely happy about it- I now go riding much more often, sometime with the chattering classes as well.
Xc may well be in a state, but to me it's a perfectly acceptable "normal" branch of this "hobby" I first had in 1987.
Heck, I even rode at Mountain Mayhem this year, however the reality is that I do want mtb'ing to be a sport to keep me fit and well; a means of getting out and about; a rush and a way of socialising with likeminded people.We probably don't ride that slowly either, but I'm way beyond everything having to be a competition, that's a really sad thought.
I may even watch some xc racing.
Oh there is no doubt I am in the wrong club! I will not be renewing my membership! Although in my defence, the club is, as I said before, very performance driven for road, TT, track and triathlon and it says on their website and in the handbook that they are for mountain biking too, it just sadly turned out not to be true.
The trouble is that there aren't really any other clubs that have any mountain bike base around here, the nearest thing is the local running club that has a bike section.
XC racing is certianly in a better state now than it has been since about 2000. The problem at the top level is a lack of support. There are loads of ex xc racers riding on the road at the moment as that's where they can get the support to go full time.
the club is, as I said before, very performance driven for road, TT, track and triathlon and it says on their website and in the handbook that they are for mountain biking too, it just sadly turned out not to be true.
Could that be the solution, use the club for fitness and training and races for racing. I don't think the club have misled as they do have an mtb section. Perhaps you could talk to the club with regard to setting up a more competitive side, if no one will provide you with the service, do it yourself.
er...refer you to my starting post, I did do just that. I am not saying that the club lied to me, but they do state, "The club aims to offer a supportive environment for people with race ambitions" i don't feel one group ride at the pace of the slowest rider really fits that bill. It's not a bad ride and think it's great if that what you like or just starting out but it's not "really a supportive environment for people with race ambitions". Even less so when coaches don't bother to even reply to enquiries.
To be fair to them though they have re worded their statement on mtbing on their website recently, with more emphases on the social side and toning down the performance side.
fashion driven pony trekking by bike
Chubby baggy suited clowns, porting huge camelbaks around, filled with sports drinks, first aid kits, energy bars, wearing the latest colours, sporting this seasons helmet du jour, with gps tracking in case we get lost, out for 5 hours, actually riding for 2, as we stop every 10minutes because Jason and Amanda are new to this...
It's not a sport, its a jeffing mobile dinner party.
Best rant within someone else's thread I have [i]ever[/i] seen. Insightful, to the point, and oh so right.
Good work that man.
🙂
Crikey
That bit about Jason and Amanda made me spit my tea all over my keyboard.
''A mobile diner party''.
Not stopped laughing since you posted it.
some general observations:
You need to separate social MTBing from racing, don't knock social MTBers as they are part of the pyramid that creates the racers but the riding is different and should not be knocked because people have a chat, eat cake and drink beer
there are very few mtb "first" clubs around that focus on XC racing rather than DH
XC racing suffers because :
1. it's a lot of work for the organisers, very few clubs organise XC races (compare to road racing or TT) so there is an overreliance on "professional" organsers
2. there isn't the club infrastructure to support organisers who are not "professional"
3. rider tend to be "consumers" and don't marshal or provide one because they are too focused on their own limited objectives
4. venues are hard to find
5. no coverage, a certain magazine has failed to cover (or even have a look at) the race series orgainsed 10 miles from their office for the last three years, the same series that got a double page spread in MBUK
6. riders don't pre-enter which leads to the cancelation of events due to financial risk
7. the lack of XC coaching via BC (level 2 very new Level 3 doesn't exist yet)
8. XC racing tends to be an "all day/ weekend" affair, people often don't have that much time for a 11/2-2hr race
the elephant in the room is AGE RELATED RACING it's complete rubbish and has no basis in the reality of rider ability. Who is stopping the change that has been floating around? The professional organisers who are desperate to retain their current ageing customer base and that ageing customer base who like racing against their mates and don't want to be racing against younger riders
The trouble is that there aren't really any other clubs that have any mountain bike base around here, .
go and talk to the LBS's try and get some sponsorship and form a club, half a dosen like minded people is what you need and they are probably out there desperate to get someone to liftshare with them
I love this, we've got no xc talent in this country because fat middle aged riders don't want to push themselves till they puke.
You need to separate social MTBing from racing, don't knock social MTBers as they are part of the pyramid that creates the racers but the riding is different and should not be knocked because people have a chat, eat cake and drink beer
I don't mean to knock social mtber's at all, I think it's great to see so many people out there having a good time and agree with you that they are part of the pyramid structure.
And in away that's part of my point, I do feel there is a different 'air' about xc mountain biking these days, one of, if not, "don't go fast", "there's little need to improve". As I said I used to enjoy group rides, we still waited for everyone, but speed was still something to aim for. There where a couple of guys that I used to ride with on the group rides, that had no real interest in racing, but they were still really quick, to the point when one of them did enter a race he almost won it. That speed thing, I feel, has gone, as mentioned above, the nod of approval when you ride fast or clear a section no one else does, is still there, there just doesn't seem the push to get there oneself.
I don't think social riders and racers can't sit along side each other, in my experience, it used to happen but somehow it's different now.
The age related racing thing is a good point, not sure why we have never swapped to a road style ability categorised system.
Other things I think would help would be more of the city centre/elimination style events, get the idea of xc racing out there to the masses. I also think it's a pretty cool format, a little like mid point between 4x and xc, and you do see at world level some cross over, with DH and 4x riders riding. Although I am not sure about tempting downhillers away from downhilling, not sure they are not better to stay were they are!
Do think the race series could do with a bit of a shake up, a bit of verity, most series have had same format since the beginning of time. Why not have a series that has a few different rounds, such as a short track race or an endurance race, might get a different type of rider interested.
I want to reply, but can't get my head in gear so I'll just throw all my letters up in the air?
First it's good to see a positive xc thread 🙂
Sadly you need the blazer types or in other words organisation, an XC race for 60 riders won't happen without it. Think marshals, time keepers etc. The people that'll give up their time probably realise they get mocked on places like this.
I'm looking to start a local XC series, but there won't be hundreds of sub classes just novices and everyone else. The way I see it is that the current system is over complicated and trying to hard to not to upset the newer weaker rider. Look at Cyclocross we all go out together and love it.
You mention expensive, I'm not quite sure what you mean there? If you mean you need an expensive bike then your wrong, and a common mistake. I refer to my return to cross some years ago. I was late for the start or so I thought. I could see all this bling on the start line, the sort of kit you see on the bike porn threads. Turned out to be the novices. The seniors were on old alloy Giants and some running sora...that sort of thing. A common mistake and one of the things that puts people off, trying to buy your way in.
XC requires a good old fashioned aprenticeship.
Strangely last night whilst I was near to passing out on my Turbos, I did actually wonder is this normal, are other riders pushing themselves like this to get faster?
Anyway just pick the points out of that while my coffee sinks in.
Oh Gawd, I've just found myself agreeing with big_n_daft... but he has a point.
Hang on just slipping into my blazer.
Right, I know there are plenty of guys wanting to race XC locally, but they need someone to sort it for them.
I run a road club and want to bring in mountainbiking. However..hang on just doing up the club tie....MTB'ing can be a bit sensitive in this area, and I'd hate to dish out a club jersey to a guy that's going to keep riding cheeky trails and give the wardens the finger.
I'm trying to negotiate membership that covers all the local permits. If I can do that I'll bring in MTBs and then I'll put xc racing into place as I already have a location.
Agree that you don't need a fancy bike at all to do well at xc, one of the nice things about it, I just mean the entrance fee's to me seem pretty steep. The Sxc events are £30, that to me seems like a lot, it puts a lot of people off even people I know that are more geared towards racing.
And yes cyclocross seems to be on to something.
There used to be more local races, especially when I started out, but they did get killed off not by people not turning up but know the organisers of one series, not sure if it was the same for others, started to feel pressure from above, in that they the races weren't 'official' enough and almost that they were interfering with the 'system' by running them.
Chubby baggy suited clowns, porting huge camelbaks around, filled with sports drinks, first aid kits, energy bars, wearing the latest colours, sporting this seasons helmet du jour, with gps tracking in case we get lost, out for 5 hours, actually riding for 2, as we stop every 10minutes because Jason and Amanda are new to this...
It's not a sport, its a jeffing mobile dinner party
rides like this can be great fun, with the right friends its a beautiful way to spend time...
BUT i do think its worth splitting the weekly rides so that at least one of them is a hard push to ride for as long as possible, with as few stops as possible. makes those weekend mobile dinner parties more enjoyable 'cos you've got the fitness to make the most of it 🙂
i would'nt enter an XC race, purely cos i dont want the element of competition to distract from the fun of messing around with friends. considering the abundance of XC opportunities in this country i'm surprised there isnt loadsa groups of rogue 'jeyboys' organising their own unofficial mass-start races for fun.
Because XC racing is hard. It requires commitment and hard work to get and maintain fitness, and the will and ability to race regularly, all things which are absent from the fashion driven pony trekking by bike that modern mountain biking has turned into. The adoption of mountain biking by the chattering classes is good in that it brings people with lots of disposable income into the activity, but it suffers in that it becomes just another hobby, just another leisure activity for the well heeled instead of a sport to train for and compete in.
I agree, running also.
XC racing is certianly in a better state now than it has been since about 2000. The problem at the top level is a lack of support. There are loads of ex xc racers riding on the road at the moment as that's where they can get the support to go full time.
I dont agree with this cycling is not the cheapest sport in the world but in cycling and running (my sport) there has been a gradual move towards an expectation of "support" in order to commit and gain results.
Historically runners for example have "become" very good then benefited, not the other way around. Its possible to excel without first receiving lottery funding for example!
There are countless examples of athletes performing at a high level and holding down full time jobs. At the highest level of course it becomes appropriate to train full time but there is an element of "cart before the horse", particulalry in running and I have spoken to many aspiring athletes over the years that feel they were held back through lack of funding/support/having to earn a living. In my opinion they simply werent good enough but refused to accept that.
And another thing. What do people think of low key events?
To me grass roots racing is - turn up, pay a couple of quid. Decide if your a youth, novice or raced before and enter the right race.
No timing chips and no freebies.
Only the first three get counted. Lets face it you don't really need to be told how well you've done do you. Just turn up next week and beat that jersey that was in front of you last week.
Though as I'm in a good mood I might provide a tin bath and hose pipe a la seventies cx style.
I've looked back at my slightly ranty post of last night and it reads a little oddly, but , what I'm trying to get at is;
1."Mountain biking" has evolved, it was always likely to.
2. Many folk are not driven to be competetive all of the time.
3. Sadly, despite it's evolution, there will always be souless individuals who just don't get "it", simply throwing cash at badging themselves.
4. Years back every mag had an "events " page, featuring local racing as well as the highly sponsored big events. Most of those events were xc biased.
5. Trail riding is popular, ( I've ridden trail centres and although a few of our little tribe really like them, I can't say I do, although some trails "flow" well) and the sale of trail bikes and kit, must benefit the bike trade as a whole.
6. Every genre, be it xc / dh / trial / trail or whatever has it's place.
7. I wont be alone in this, but in order to enjoy mtb as a whole and if I wanted to race, truthfully, I couldn't afford to these days. My 4" trail bike will have to be my only bike, it gets upgraded as stuff wears out.Personally I would like to do more enduro stuff, but can't get to many and can't afford to build / buy a specific bike.
8. Not sure what the answer is but "local" focus seems to be about mates on bikes riding relatively local stuff and riding as well as they can. Personally I enjoy the company, but would be equally happy in a non trail centre world, riding natural trailed epics, even if on my own.
9. My "Amanda" stays at home, because she can't ride a bike, just wouldn't be interested anyway and I'm a bit impatient !
10, Aren't we all in this together ? At least it beats x factoring and obestity.
11. What I saw of the really good guys at MM earlier this year, really demonstrates to me what a high standard our racers are at and it just may be that the focus for pulling xc up by the boot straps has to come from them ? I just don't want to race myself, but would cheerfully pay a couple o quid to watch local events if there were any !
I'd hate to dish out a club jersey to a guy that's going to keep riding cheeky trails and give the wardens the finger.
Although pretty much every road club I've ridden with is happy to dish out club jerseys to riders who go through red lights, which is surely the same kind of thing?
I kind of agree with the social ride dinner party thing too - if you go on a 'slow ride', or have the kids with you or whatever, then stopping is great obviously, but it is annoying being on a ride that stops all the time for ages. Although I've ridden with different sets of people and whilst I'm the fastest sometimes, on some rides I'm pretty sure I'm the person everyone is waiting for - if I'm last I don't stop for rests all the time, but I'm not quick on the downhills, or skilled at riding the uphills, so other people will get there first on technical bits.
Having said that though, I always carry a GPS with maps on, which means on a ride which is slow for me, I can often loop round and double up sections rather than waiting for people. Is very easy at foresty type places like Cannock, and doable in a lot of places, and it is nice - means that the slow people don't feel they're holding you up, and you have to push yourself like you were riding with a bunch of silly fast people.
Oh, and people who choose to push up hills, rather than even bothering to try to ride up them. That is the only thing that really really gets on my goat in a group ride. If you don't have a go and fail, you'll never succeed. Grrr.
Chubby baggy suited clowns, blah blah camelbak blah
What has this got to do with the number of top level XC racers in the UK?
And another thing. What do people think of low key events?
I think they are a good idea (again) running is similar when I was running as a junior and young senior it was possible to enter events on the day and the standard was still very high but they were less formal.
More recently these events have been forced off the calendar to make way for the "great XXXX run" or the London Marathon etc. We used to have dozens of athletes racing weekly around local parks in Liverpool trying to break 26 minutes for 5 miles, the general standard was very high. 26 minutes often wouldnt get you in the top 20, now it would win the majority. Its a sad state of affairs.
These races have largely disapeared and too many people focus on the commercial events above.
Although pretty much every road club I've ridden with is happy to dish out club jerseys to riders who go through red lights, which is surely the same kind of thing?
Sort of, it's just the local patch. Most the off roading is on private estate, Woburn. That's the only reason for my remark.
I dont agree with this cycling is not the cheapest sport in the world but in cycling and running (my sport) there has been a gradual move towards an expectation of "support" in order to commit and gain results.
Historically runners for example have "become" very good then benefited, not the other way around. Its possible to excel without first receiving lottery funding for example!
There are countless examples of athletes performing at a high level and holding down full time jobs. At the highest level of course it becomes appropriate to train full time but there is an element of "cart before the horse", particulalry in running and I have spoken to many aspiring athletes over the years that feel they were held back through lack of funding/support/having to earn a living. In my opinion they simply werent good enough but refused to accept that.
But the running example is irrelevant, Andy's point is spot on IMO, there is hardly any support for top level XC racers, they are usually shepherded onto the road. Riders come through the ranks of MTB, then go to the road: Ross Creber, Ian Wilkinson, Scott Thwaites, Gareth Montgomerie have all been lured to the road and away from MTBing.
The only riders who are supported by BC in XC are those with a proven ability to win. Notably Liam Killeen, David Fletcher, Annie Last and Kenta Gallagher. If you're not going to win, you get steered onto the road to not win there instead!
Thinking a little about it, I can't think of any local races, i can think of local cross and local road races, but if you want to race XC nothing.
When i say local i mean to me, but i don't think i am unique in living in an area where the opportunities to do some local races are not great.
Although there were some races Worcester way in the summer, which is c25miles away, so not too far.
Ideally I'd want to put on racing that was so cheap and basic, that if for some reason it had to be cancelled on the day it wouldn't pee people off.
I race in the LVRC, every Tuesday night. If it's off it's off and I go home. I could see some mountainbikey types wanting to sue me or charge me for their child minding costs.
But the running example is irrelevant
I dont think it is I think there is a parallel, although we may be talking about different points on the continuum.
The OP talks about the shortage of opportunity. There needs to be a progression and there needs to be events were riders can gain experience to excel at their chosen discipline, hence my response to oldgit above.
I cant comment on your point and you are clearly knowledgable about but I am refering to people coming into the sport and the expectation of support/reward when (as some have pointed out above) you need to "graft", win then look around for backing (I dont mean general support and advice which is probably available at most clubs) but the expecation of sponsorship and bling as well as cash to allow full time commitment.
Id riders are "good" and want to excel in MTB then they should not allow themselves to be steered away.
But the running example is irrelevant, Andy's point is spot on IMO, there is hardly any support for top level XC racers, they are usually shepherded onto the road. Riders come through the ranks of MTB, then go to the road: Ross Creber, Ian Wilkinson, Scott Thwaites, Gareth Montgomerie have all been lured to the road and away from MTBing
It's why we need more racing. We need hundreds of good riders to give these guys an environment to thrive in. Considering how small the world of British XC is we have some good riders.
A very interesting and encouraging thread. I have been thinking this for some time. The bottom line is that xc racing is not seen as 'cool'. People want to go out and buy 'enduro' bikes, body armour and full face helmets and cycle around a trail centre. All this withgout being competitive ofcourse 🙄
Racing breeds inovation, without it the boundaries just wouldn't be pushed. Training for an event is IMO a very noble thing as it pushes you to be better than you were, and for me that splills into my life outside of cycling, it becomes an attitude thing. Maybe its the fear of failure, but as dissappointing as that is, when thigs go well, and you get a positive result, there's nothing like it.
In mtb less is more. Over the last couple of years I have shed travel, baggies and about 7kg in body fat, done a few XC events this year, going to do a lot more next year. No idea about the pro-type guys but I still cant quite believe how fast some of the guys who turn up at Eastern XC/Thetford Enduro/Beastway are. Some of them knocking on 50yrs, it's super encouraging to do an event with those guys. XC racing is probably the toughest sport I've ever done.
Each to their own, but an awful lot of folk pushing around great big bikes wearing baggy clothes and bits of body armour. Just looks.....flabby. And pretty boring. XC is great, we should shout about it.
And good point about the mags. Why dont they cover some races or just spread the word about what's on? Not like they couldnt do with a bit of variety each month.
My 'local'racing calender should I choose to do the lot.
Tuesday LVRC road racing 7pm every week April to September
Wednesday Summit Series MTB 6 plus races?
Thursday BC road racing. March to september.
Friday FNSS MTB XC racing
Saturday Road or cyclocross calender permitting
Sunday cyclocross september to late December
Sunday BC road racing
All on my doorstep
What's shocking is that XC MTB racing seems to be limited to when it's nice out, yet the skinny tyred brigade race all year round.
Bottom line:
there's no money in British XC. Or british mountain biking full stop.
Also British cycling stick to selecting their (groomed) riders for worlds etc and these are not necessarily the best riders in form for the events, but selecting them justifies their coaching staff a job.
We seem to be obsessed with putting money and riders in to track because that is where the money is being spent. We are incredibly successful at track racing, but is there a regular track league in the UK. Are there many track racers?
Its all shite, British cycling are destroying disciplines within cycling through underfunding to support track.
xc races need to encourage the people that ride for fun to enter. a shit course thats faster to ride on a rigid xc machine wont do this.
maybe xc races should piggyback the gravity enduro events? a race timed on the whole lot as well as just the descents. that way you double up on entry and get a decent course to ride thats fun and rewards a proper mountain bike rider.
If it's not ridable on a ridgid mtb it would not be rideable by most riders, it would be a freeride course.
I dont think it is I think there is a parallel, although we may be talking about different points on the continuum.
I meant that you countered AC282s comment with a running comparison, conceptually I suspect it's similar, although the example he raised was spot on IMO, and was a cycling specific one.
xc races need to encourage the people that ride for fun to enter. a shit course ridable on a rigid xc machine wont do this.
Most things are rideable on a rigid bike, but I agree, it certainly shouldn't be an advantage. Most XC courses are good. However many events categorised by the majority as 'XC' aren't really, they're endurance type events, and due to the 'all comers' they attract, in large numbers, courses are often dull. XC courses, by and large, are pretty good!
Trying to amalgamate things like the Gravity Enduro into an XC race is very difficult IMO, you don't want one big climb and one descent, it's dull. You also need fireroad and what not to overtake. Few trail centre trails make a good XC race courses too. I've done XC at Cwmcarn and CyB, and both were pretty rubbish places to race.
Plenty of courses take in [i]bits[/i] of trail centres successfully, Dalby, Grizedale, Drumlanrig and most of the SXC courses spring to mind. Then they are a similar concept to the Gravity Enduro, just with added fitness requirements.
Things like Mountain Mayhem, SiTS etc aren't good courses for XC races, but then they're not XC races!
VanHalen, i think i know where you are coming from, but it isn't XC racing is it? And this talk of "proper mountain bike rider" this is the issue imo, there are too many who are looking for quick fixes, who are not willing to accept that if you want to race XC competitively you need to get fit and do some.....Training....
I would say the solution is more races, cheap, low pressure, jumpers for goal posts type events. say 1hour+ a lap like a cross race, but design the course for MTBs and not cross bikes. The problem is who is going to put the events on, it is not like the club structure that exists on the road exists off.
Im going to put an event on for an XC race, and Ive just been inspired by this thread to do it.
It will be in Leeds/Bradford and I have the perfect venue, it will be the best XC race youve ever known.
the venue is amazing, fire roads, tech woods, rock, perfect.
Im working on a three day road race at the moment, but Ill get this XC race sorted sharpish.
I think the running example is a good one, there are loads of little running events/races round here and that can only be good for the sport of running. Get people paying a few £'s and just have a go, and think the more MTB races like the better.
Grass routes racing as oldgit laid out is fantastic.
Think the point about coverage and people going off to the road is also a very valid point. If I was a company looking to sponsor a team, although my heart would want to sponsor an xc team it would be stupid and would look to downhill or the road. The magazine's just don't seem to care about xc racing(bar, as I said before, shred which is not that easily available), there's no TV coverage of xc at national level, even on an internet bases were as the road gets a bit of TV coverage and you are bound to get a pic or two and a few lines in cycling weekly if you sponsor a road team or some coverage in Dirt if you put money into downhill.
Not having that competition between racers at a national level is never going to produce a depth of world class athletes. The uk mountain bike press need to start taking an interest.
Its all shite, British cycling are destroying disciplines within cycling through underfunding to support track
Untrue, have you asked BC for any help recently?
I would say the solution is more races, cheap, low pressure, jumpers for goal posts type events. say 1hour+ a lap like a cross race, but design the course for MTBs and not cross bikes. The problem is who is going to put the events on, it is not like the club structure that exists on the road exists off
Me, I'll do it/am doing it. I visited a local venue with a view to holding CX racing on it. However it was a bit gnarly for that i.e a tad rough under tyre. But the man from BC suggested it'll be great for XC. If I hold them I reserve the right to punch anyone in the face that moans....you know the guy that didn't finish because it wasn't good enough.
The magazine's just don't seem to care about xc racing
probably a reflection of their readership. if the majority of the readership don't give a crap about xc racing why should the mag ? I don't read many mags and I don't care about xc racing, in fact my worst nightmare would be gathering in a muddy field with "like minded" lycra clad powerrangers in a god awful club jersey.
There used to be more money in XC than DH, which surprised me (from a wage perspective at least, but that was driven by sponsorship).
I suspect with the likes of Red Bull and what not that's shifted, but I'd not be convinced that DH is a better place to invest. The road though definitely! You don't get the diverse range of sponsors of MTB teams at all (XC or DH), it's generally bike companies/companies with a bike/sport link, not pasta companies, telecommunications companies, laminate flooring companies and national lottery companies with huge budgets as on the road!
get a decent course to ride thats fun and rewards a proper mountain bike rider.
It's that attitude that's the problem. What is a 'proper' mountain bike rider? A pro DH rider would probably win a Gravity Enduro, does that mean that XC courses should be set up so they also win XC? Are they the epitome of a proper moutain bike rider? Then why have the different disciplines at all?
XC is a comprimise of fitness and skill. Some courses play to one more than the other, but the diversity and variation is what makes it good.
Untrue, have you asked BC for any help recently?
Yes
I asked them help build an outdoor velodrome in Leeds.
I got funding committments from council, sports college etc and was 100k short for an 800k velodrome, I had land set aside and approval from council for it, British cycling responded with:
"we wont race there"
"We have a track in Manchester and none of our athletes will race at your Leeds track"
On the back of that statement to the committee it was dropped.
I could have got the 100k through sponsorship and local business, but like I said BC = total shite for grass roots racing.
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-is-your-average-speed-am-i-really-that-slow#post-2934502 ]Here's a perfect example of the reaction[/url] and probably why people don't enter the world of XC. I posted my time solely to see the reaction and to link it here, the times are true btw.
If I watch downhilling or freeriding the guys congratulate each other and offer encouragement, xc riders are accused of willy waving!
It would appear to me that there is no structure to the racing, so there is no path for younger racers to follow.
There are no heroes for the youngster to aspire to.
It's not as gnarly as downhill nor as sexy as road.
I think it would be great to see racing at a local level, but it needs an objective.
- yep every sunday morning at 5.30!?!?!?!Strangely last night whilst I was near to passing out on my Turbos, I did actually wonder is this normal, are other riders pushing themselves like this to get faster?
My own take on this in the 80/90s xc was mtbing, then come the mid 90s if you raced you did the downhill and xc usually on the same bike with dh on saturday and xc on sunday. At this point mtbing was taking taking off like nothing else, during 95 to 98 I remember stuff coming out weekly that would promise to improve your performance, x-lite, pace, kona, gt and cannondale were by comaprison small operations to what they are today. And then DH started to come to the fore, and the technology took a different direction, and xc racing 'stabilised' until the foot & mouth outbreaks that pretty much killed it (round here at least).
Now however its seeing a bit of a comeback, the same guys I was racing against in 95/96 have had their kids and are back racing xc again, and tbh, without the weekly must bythis because its blue rubbish, its a lot more fun.
Agree with teh age thing though, but the only other option is a points based licence ranking, but because of the 'freespirit' nature of xc I dont think it would work too well... still annoying when guys matching elite times put themselves in with the other vets though...
I think it would be great to see racing at a local level, but it needs an objective.
To be fair, i think the objective exists, it is the path that doesn't. There are now regional mtb series again, there is a national series and even international options, what is missing is the local races to get people in at the bottom.
I could have got the 100k through sponsorship and local business, but like I said BC = total shite for grass roots racing.
Okay your idea of grass roots is a bit different to mine. I've never asked for a brand new velodrome, just a gazebo, numbers and a bell.
In two minds about the would magazine's readership care about xc, it did at one point and can't help see that there is a bit of a lead taken from magazines/websites in the way people look at the sport. Think magazines could do a lot to jazz up the image of xc riding.
As for courses getting more technical, I personally would mind that if they did, think the best racers would just adapt but at the same time think you need to be careful that your not making them so difficult that you are putting the have a go hero off. Don't really feel that the courses are that dull or really the problem.
As for the cool thing with xc, not sure what is so uncool about it, all other sports that require effort to be really good so that can't really be it(and yes you can do downhill/BMX/4x whatever with less training but you can do xc with little training the results are the same, not amazing results!). Is it the lyrca thing? Should xc go the way of DH and ban lyrca? Seems a bit stupid but if it helped I wouldn't care.
As I said before there is an odd lack of correlation between the huge fields in endurance racing/events and doing well at xc racing or endurance racing. I could understand if the uk was good at marathon races but we still suck at those, not sure why this is.
The uk xc scene (by that I am including endurance racing) seems to me to be heading the same way as tennis, loads of opportunities to play but, apart from the odd one or two, terrible at it on an international level. Maybe BC will at some point start putting an effort into it like they have with the track and give them their dues they do at least support Annie Last, David Fletcher e.c.t on the world cups. Liam would(probably) have had to ride self supported last year if it wasn't for British cycling.
Should we be asking ourselves why cyclocross is going from strength to strength.
The thing about vets, and I am one is that we don't really matter and we have to acknowledge that. As a vet I've had my day and there's no future in vets, in that you won't see one at the olympics.
Okay your idea of grass roots is a bit different to mine. I've never asked for a brand new velodrome, just a gazebo, numbers and a bell.
Me too. I think this is the point I was making earlier. Why do cyclists need "sponsorship", the involvement of local business, exposure etc. Racing is what its all about at whatever level. We seem to have lost sight of this. Too many "athletes" IMO set their sights to high. Beat your mates then move to the next level.
First it's good to see a positive xc thread
Really? Lots of it just seems to be the usual sneering at people who don't see mountain biking the same way.
Nope it's deffo positive.
Little bit narked by some of the suggestions that XC should be a bit more gnarl and interesting. That's a bit off putting. XC is XC and I'll do my best to get some XC racing up and running. If people don't want to get involved yet still want people to change things for them well then do it yourself.
Frankly lets see if we can race across a stretch of grass first before we get ahead of ourselves.
