[i]This is a city centre facility[/i]No, that would be Broadmead or Lloyds Amphitheatre. This is city limits.
Relatively speaking, this is a city centre facility. Compare it to other cities and you have a load of trails that are far closer to the city centre than anywhere I can think of. The easy access alone means there must be easier trails developed first - as I said, this is no Welsh valley.
I'm sorry you weren't spoon fed information. Did you want someone with a clipboard at the tea hut? This is the C21st. Bristol MTB Club, Cheesy Riders, the Trails Group, 1SW etc etc all ran this a year ago. Do a search on 'Bristol trails development' and see the hits dated a year ago. Given all Mr Agreeable (and others) does and has done, your affront is misplaced. You currently use trails maintained by the good will of others (who know what is needed at a trailbuilding level) and don't like change that brings funding and year round improvement? Put yourself in context - you are not the target audience at this time.
it's more like a few OK sections of singletrack linked up with road, gravel tracks and muddy slogs along the edges of fields
That does sound like the Timberland Trail I've been riding in AC. My one is about 90% in woods with a short (400m?) section across grass and a gravel track just after the hole in the wall. There's certainly none along the edge of a field.
So, anyway, if you have to spend £200k on a bike trail, why not just harden/weatherproof the existing trail in AC at a grade a bit more than blue so that there's something for everyone in the wet? I think you say why here:-
There's also the problem that there is no reason for the current trails to attract further development or investment
So the money is only available for AC if the current trail is sanitised for beginners. The OP's original point.
Then you start contradicting yourself:-
They exist but they have fairly limited appeal
WHAT! Trails in AC having limited appeal? I thought the whole issue is that they are too popular and require too much maintenance.
and
I doubt this would ever happen if the new trails were designed specifically to appeal to a core audience of a couple of hundred experienced mountain bikers
I doubt that unless new trails were death-wish-on-a-stick black that they would only attract a few hundred riders (and I'm not suggesting that am I?)
-----------------------------
charliebigpotato - If you, and many others like you, showed a bit more restraint when it's wet the trails wouldn't need so much maintenance. I too have a family and have to seize the opportunities when I can. If it's raining on that special day I think "I won't go and make a mess of Leigh Woods or Ashton Court" and go somewhere a bit further. It's just self-centred and plain lazy.
don't like change that brings funding and year round improvement
For the last time, for AC it's not improvement, it's sanitising!
surely the bits between quarry & beggar bush lane and pre-bombhole are around a field?
ps: i'm all for it - the Timberland trail has only ever been tricky if ridden b4lls out - this will still be the case if Phil Saxena's previous experience is utilised, the hard stuff is all Gorge side (post Still closure - boohoo) and the potential for pump / jump and possible Still reopening is fabbo.
🙂
"why not just harden/weatherproof the existing trail in AC at a grade a bit more than blue"
Exactly how? It's too flat to ever be red. And £200k will not pay for 5km of hand-built rock gardens.
I do think it'll be a shame if the rooty sections of upper quarry are completely smoothed out particularly as they've had so much stone put in over the years that they do actually hold up ok even if muddy but on balance if the return is a flowy trail that's rideable all year then I can live with that.
Mr_a what is considered blue? Completely smooth like most of the hawthorns section or will there be rocks and roots still eg the first section on bbl from the hole in the wall back towards the AC main gate?
I'll miss the Upper Quarry trail if it changed significantly, proper Bristol riding and very different to most other spots I ride! I'd call that a red section if ridden at any pace. Actually, you need to be a reasonable rider to get much pace over it.
What is Blue? The Blue route at Whinlatter is OK, comparable with something like the Penhydd at Afan I would say. Obviously we dont have the change in elevation that either of those places has.
That does sound like the Timberland Trail I've been riding in AC. My one is about 90% in woods with a short (400m?) section across grass and a gravel track just after the hole in the wall. There's certainly none along the edge of a field.
Then you, like many of us, aren't riding the 'timberland trail' in AC! which has at least 2 sections that could only be described as riding along the edge of field, another that would be described as riding along the side of a road next to field, and then a fireroad climb. If you look at it, you'd be surprised how little single track there is on the 'official' trail compared to the sort of rides that most of us do in AC.
Ant, what are the plans for the other bits of trail in AC? Will they be actively hunted down and closed? Or will they remain fair weather options?
The old BB trail was riding well last year 😉
It annoys me when riders complain about being kept out of the loop, when I'm maintaining a website, a forum (hardly used), a mailing list, a Facebook page, a Twitter feed (alright, the last two are the same), and starting the odd thread on STW, not to mention our web address and my phone number are on signs at the start of the Ashton Court and 50 Acre trail.
Mr. A., get off your lazy arse and hand deliver leaflets through the door of every mountain biker in the Bristol area... 😉
Exactly how? It's too flat to ever be red
I agree that whilst AC lacks the change of elevation many trail centres posses and many people associate with red grade routes, I think it is quite technical in places (as previous two posts have said) and currently includes the red section of the new trail. And any way I didn't say "red" I said "more than blue" which was previously agreed on as "magenta".
And £200k will not pay for 5km of hand-built rock gardens
If the money available would build a blue trail I would imagine it would build a magenta trail as there would be less work flattening everything out and getting it level. And I never suggested 5 km of rock gardens, I want to keep the character of the current trail.
I don't build trails (sounds like you do) but to make it a bit more than blue I imagine you could compact gravel into the rooty sections, put some six inch rock steps in, leave some of the big rocks in but make the level up around them so only the tops protrude but they stay put, dig out the mud pools and fill with compacted rubble leaving a depression, a few hummocks of compacted dirt and rubble, maybe even the odd small tree trunk.
OK, so we may have to lose most of the muddy ruts. C'est la vie!
I don't build trails (sounds like you do) but to make it a bit more than blue I imagine you could compact gravel into the rooty sections, put some six inch rock steps in, leave some of the big rocks in but make the level up around them so only the tops protrude but they stay put, dig out the mud pools and fill with compacted rubble leaving a depression, a few hummocks of compacted dirt and rubble, maybe even the odd small tree trunk
Nah my work is limited to tiny ministrations of cheeky trails in my area - not re-surfacing and drainage needed to withstand hundreds of riders a week 🙂
What you describe sounds great, but a lot of hand-work. Whereas I think what can be done for the ££ is mostly machine-built which is why it tends toward being characterless. But they are going to be putting some hand-build in.
I'm basically in favour of the work even tho it sanitises the trail - some all weather trails are much needed. There are other "naturally" rooty trails in the vicinity of Bristol.
I think you'll find the zig zags are hilly.........
Well it was pretty boggy going last night and more typical of Bristol mud than it's been recently with the freezing ground. I'll definitely miss some of upper quarry if they take out/build over the roots but if it's got a nice flow to it and it's kept reasonably narrow, I really do think it's a price worth paying.
Boggy! it's a total mess I gave up after an hour at the weekend (OK riding whilst suffering with gastric flu is silly), it was bloody awful.
Blue/Red/"Magenta" (!!!) I think people get too hung up on colour grading of trails. It's delivering somewhere to ride your mountain bike all year round, close to the city centre. People should just be happy that in this time of austerity there's money to build things like this, go ride on them and get over themselves.
As the OP said, I don’t think much effort was made to consult local riders, I certainly didn’t hear anything about it until the recent announcement.
Not so, myself and the chairman of Bristol mountain bike club attended a consultation meeting in mid-2010 where Phil Saxena presented a few ideas and asked us for our input, including a long session brain storming and marking trails and routes on OS maps. Also present at the meeting were representatives from the uni mtb clubs, cheesy riders, bristol trails group and many others.
Also present at the meeting were representatives from the uni mtb clubs, cheesy riders, bristol trails group and many others.
Even MORE people who didn't text / write to / phone / e-mail / lead by the hand Mr longwayhome and invite him! Shocking! I suppose you call a broad cross section of the user community 'representative' and a 'consultation' as well? You'll tell me that there was someone listening as well!
*outraged*
Bristol MTB Club, Cheesy Riders, the Trails Group, 1SW etc etc all ran this a year ago
and
Not so, myself and the chairman of Bristol mountain bike club .... Also present at the meeting were representatives from the uni mtb clubs, cheesy riders, bristol trails group and many others.
Club, club, club, club, group, club, club. I can see it's the easy way to get in contact with people but not everyone who goes biking at LW/AC is in a club/group, or reads this forum (I only stated 6 months ago!)
People should just be happy that in this time of austerity there's money to build things like this
I'm quite happy that money is available to build things, I just don't want the it to be used to sanitise the existing AC, AS THE OP SAID AND I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!
not everyone who goes biking at LW/AC is in a club/group, or reads this forum
Well then they are the ones who are willing to stay abreast of what is happening in the area by reading websites and getting involved. Really - how on earth do you think they should have advertised their intentions? If you don't read websites, don't join a club etc, how would you expect to find out? How do you find anything out? Do people normally knock at your door and tell you stuff? You said nobody was consulted, you were proven wrong - now you don't like who was consulted. Have you always been this special?
calm down, calm down..............personally I like the roots and rocks, it really surprised my mate from Wales just how tricky it is on his first trip over for Bikefest.
Goodbye High Rollers hello Larsons?
Having ridden blue routes with my son who's not "mad on riding", which i am dissapointed about, i was surprised at how good a blue route could be and if AC is made "all weather" it is a good thing in my book as last weekend was a bloody slog round AC and 50 acre.
Maybe, if longwayhome came out and joined in with some trail building you might find out whats happening around Bristol.
I don't profess to making every one of Mr Agreeables dig days but i try to make a few each year and if i'm struggling for time whilst out riding i at least drag a couple of barrow loads to the work site for the trail pixes to try and work some magic on a trail thats in a god awful state at the moment.
As pjt201 says, people are getting very hung up on the grading.
Setting aside the tedious debate as to what constitutes a red, blue or purple grade trail (search for "Thetford black run" if you want to lose the will to live), there seems to be an assumption that the trail in Ashton Court is going to be flattened, smoothed out and generally rendered not worth riding.
This isn't the case. The trail will change drastically, but if anything it will become less flat (one of the key aims of the redevelopment is to get a trail that drains, remember - it won't do this if it's all at ground level), more twisty, and faster to ride. It won't be as rooty as before (because roots tend to grow below ground level, and trails below ground level are a bugger to maintain), and the micro-design of the trail is going to be put in as the build happens (to give the trail builder some flexibility if inspiration strikes) but there will no doubt be some cool little features, be they jumps, rocks, logs or whatever.
The new trail is also going to feature, for the first time ever, a decent length downhill section, in New Barn Wood. I would have liked to see a full-on descent to the bottom of the estate, but that would involve bulldozing a mountain bike trail through the SSSI in Clarken Coombe (across from the Zig Zags), which unsurprisingly hasn't got the green light. There are other local spots with a decent bit of gradient that have trails we can currently ride and where there is scope for organised trail development in the future.
I imagine you could compact gravel into the rooty sections, put some six inch rock steps in, leave some of the big rocks in but make the level up around them so only the tops protrude but they stay put, dig out the mud pools and fill with compacted rubble leaving a depression, a few hummocks of compacted dirt and rubble, maybe even the odd small tree trunk.
This is more or less what we've been doing for the past few years. It doesn't make an all-weather trail, and it also leads to the trail widening as people ride round the repairs we've made. It we fill in a puddle but it collects a bit of standing water, people will ride round it. It's human nature, and no amount of tutting on internet forums will change it.
Same with riding in the wet. The places that tend to have a successful "no riding after rain" ethos are often in the US, in parts where there's a very definite rainy season. Here in the UK I suspect that if we stuck rigidly to this rule, some years we'd get just a few weeks where we weren't restricted to the turbo trainer
Ant, what are the plans for the other bits of trail in AC? Will they be actively hunted down and closed? Or will they remain fair weather options?
AC's policy has always been to close off-piste stuff - if an unofficial trail is still open it's generally because they haven't found it, or people have unblocked it. I think if there's a proper trail for people to ride, it will certainly be less of an issue as you won't get the same level of poaching. I remember trying to convince the estate manager that hardly anyone used the old singletrack along Beggar Bush Lane any more, just as three riders in quick succession went past us. Which made me feel a tad foolish.
In Leigh Woods, the land managers have been firmly advised not to do any wholesale trashing of the old trails for diplomatic reasons, and seem to have taken this on board.
TooTall - I get it now, MrAgreeable is good ([s]trailbuilder[/s]) cop and you're bad ([s]trailbuilder[/s]) cop.
You paraphrased me as
You said nobody was consulted
What I actually said was
I don’t think much effort was made to consult local riders
and also
Club, club, club, club, group, club, club. I can see it's the easy way to get in contact with people but not everyone who goes biking at LW/AC is in a club/group, or reads this forum
Can you see the similarity between "not much effort" and "the easy way" and the difference between the two of them and "nobody"?
MrAgreeable - Here's a suggestion then, seeing as it sounds like quite a few people as well as me like the quarry section, why not keep it as a red/magenta/more-than-blue loop off the main blue? If you don't want to ride it, simply turn left instead of right. OK you might have to do some drainage work but doesn't the terrain slope away from the quarry edge slightly?
Also will the new downhill red bit run into the current short downhill section just before the quarry loop? It's another of the really nice bits and it's on a slope so will drain well. Could it be included, mainly unchanged?
lwh - I just get really frustrated when people - and I lump you in this group - sound off about something you could have had an input in - but didn't. There are a few people on this forum who have told you they knew about the plans and consultation and some even participated. You didn't know about any of this, yet many people did - and you seem to think this isn't your problem. I can't understand who you think is at fault here and what they should have done for your wise words to have been duly noted. At what point do you take responsibility for your own (in)action?
What's all this talk about magenta trails??
I WANT CERISE TRAILS GODDAMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MrAgreeable - Here's a suggestion then, seeing as it sounds like quite a few people as well as me like the quarry section, why not keep it as a red/magenta/more-than-blue loop off the main blue? If you don't want to ride it, simply turn left instead of right. OK you might have to do some drainage work but doesn't the terrain slope away from the quarry edge slightly?
I think there are a few problems with this suggestion:
1. Where is the new trail going to go? [url= http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/maps/aston-court ]There isn't much space at all between the two arms of the quarry trail[/url] (they are less than 20 feet apart in places), the lower arm is bordered by SSSI to the South, and missing out this section would take out about 1/4 of the available trail length in Ashton Court.
2. Who's going to maintain your bit of trail? We're been working on it regularly for about 5 years and believe me, we've done more than "some" work on it to try and get it draining properly, but it just isn't happening. As I say, next time you're riding it, have a look at it - it is basically a long muddy rut. There is a drainage point on almost every corner but that is no substitute for a trail that's built properly in the first place.
Also will the new downhill red bit run into the current short downhill section just before the quarry loop? It's another of the really nice bits and it's on a slope so will drain well. Could it be included, mainly unchanged?
I suppose it could, but why, when there's a new red downhill section being built next to it, and a technical downhill (with jumps and drop-offs) that's four times as long over in 50 Acre Wood? And again, go and have a look at it. It is, to use a technical trail grading term, pretty knackered. The wheel-swallowing holes at the bottom are particularly fun to try and negotiate.
I appreciate that you want the trails to stay as they are, unchanged, but that's based on a flawed impression of them.
Behind the scenes, a lot of work has gone into them, but they are still deteriorating and lots of riders don't enjoy the results.
There is no money that will cover proper professional maintenance as there is no revenue stream from the trails, and whatever public money is left out there after the global financial wobble is aimed at new projects, not patching up tired old ones. So, in the meantime, a bunch of volunteers are stuck with the Forth Bridge-like task of repairing them again and again, so you can enjoy your nice summer rides, when we could be building new technical trails in more suitable places.
TooTall
There are a few people on this forum who have told you they knew about the plans and consultation and some even participated
Yes, BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CLUBS/GROUPS AND EASY TO CONTACT!
Please get the idea out of your head that I think or stated that NOBODY was at the consultation. Obviously there were people there but the majority seem to be from local clubs and groups (because they are easy to contact) and have a interest in making the trails all weather at any price.
There are others around who haven't heard about the plans (because we're not in a club or group) who like (bits of) Ashton Court as it is (when dry) and are a bit concerned about it being turned into a sanitised motorway.
Please read people's posts and take the time to understand them before you start ranting about something that wasn't said.
MrAgreeable - A genuine question as you seem to be the reasonable one. How much damage is done to the trails by riding them in good, dry conditions comapred to riding in the wet? Is this the root (sorry!) of your problem?
I, for one, like the challenge of a rooty, muddy, rutted slog fest. Obviously, I am weird. I've been riding these trails for 20+ years and they have evolved quite well. However, I suppose that change is inevitable. £400k will not go a long way though. The mud will prevail eventually, just give it a season or two. I just hope that Leigh Woods doesn't get '50-acre-wooded'. i.e. turned into a scene from the Somme, with most of the woodland felled and the cheeky trails destroyed.
There are others around who haven't heard about the plans (because we're not in a club or group) who like (bits of) Ashton Court as it is (when dry) and are a bit concerned about it being turned into a sanitised motorway.
As I say, our web address and my phone number are on laminated notices at the start of the Ashton Court and 50 Acre trail. The trails have also been through the planning process so the designs have been on the Council's website and also on display on site.
Just out of interest, how would you have gone about consulting? Who would you have spoken to, and in the likely event that you got a complete mish mash on conflicting ideas, whose opinion would you have given the most weight to?
This isn't a perfect solution - what is? But it's been planned to keep most users of the trail happy. There is no shortage of muddy blown-out trails either locally or nationally. What we do need is something more durable for the wet months of the year.
How much damage is done to the trails by riding them in good, dry conditions comapred to riding in the wet? Is this the root (sorry!) of your problem?
All use of the trails causes erosion - obviously this is accelerated in the wet. Unfortunately getting shirty about it with riders who just want to enjoy the trails (and may even prefer riding in the wet) is probably the least effective solution.
LWH, here's a wacky suggestion, join a club.
I know it's a strange idea but there's at least 5 clubs in Bristol, just for mountain bikers, that i know of, you don't have to turn up to an AGM every month, just join their forum or mailing list and you'd be kept in the loop as to whats happening in the City/Aston Court/Leigh Woods/50 Acre/etc then you can have your say in what happens to the trail in Bristol.
I just hope that Leigh Woods doesn't get '50-acre-wooded'. i.e. turned into a scene from the Somme, with most of the woodland felled and the cheeky trails destroyed.
The "cheeky" trails in 50 Acre are actually the old official trails - there may be scope to re-establish these a some point, now that we're not going to be constantly repairing the Ashton Court trail.
and are a bit concerned about it being turned into a sanitised motorway.
Me to, although Phil Saxena knows what he's doing.
. turned into a scene from the Somme, with most of the woodland felled and the cheeky trails destroyed.
The felled woodland does seem to help the trails dry out quicker presumably as they are more open to the wind / warmer air.
I could be talking bollocks though.
LWH, Ant's *personal* mobile phone number and the web address to the not ambiguously named but completely volunteer run "Bristol Trails Group" are at pretty much every trail head in AC, 50 Acre and Leigh Woods, and in numerous bike shops in the area. There's a facebook group. Google "bristol mountain bike trails" and BTG is third hit, after two BMBC links. What else, seriously, do you think could be done to keep you in the loop?
I understand that you're not a member of any organisations (I don't really ride with a 'club' either, as such, although admittedly I know many members of the riding community that are). But you're beginning to look a bit ridiculous. You've got to accept that if you don't make any effort to inform yourself, this sort of info is not going mysteriously beam itself into your brain. If you were vaguely interested in the state of the trails you may have, perhaps, just glanced at the BTG web site, surely?
Yet now you want to moan about things, saying you like things just as they are, apparently without considering the huge amount of work that goes into to keeping the trails in their current pitiful state. Without BTG you wouldn't be able to ride in AC at all by now, wet or dry. The current trails are the(failing) product of many hours of constant, selflessly given volunteer work that you frankly don't even seem to have noticed as you ride around AC. They are neither natural nor sustainable.
The felled woodland does seem to help the trails dry out quicker presumably as they are more open to the wind / warmer air.I could be talking bollocks though.
No, that's spot-on. It wasn't done for that reason, but I reckon in the long term a more open canopy will benefit the trail there.
mmm, spent a bit too long writing that. should've just said what they all said ^
ianpv - Membermmm, spent a bit too long writing that. should've just said what they all said ^
I thought it was good Ian, a verbal bullet to his brain. 😉
I too now feel a bit like this thread is wasting my time.
On a more positive note, the tender for the trail build is being awarded next week, and work will begin really soon after.
No, that's spot-on. It wasn't done for that reason, but I reckon in the long term a more open canopy will benefit the trail there.
Indeed, I actually quite like the open feeling of 50 acre now.
[quote=longwayhome]the majority seem to be from local clubs and groups (because they are easy to contact)
They contacted local clubs because they represent groups of riders that use the trails frequently, many of them for a long time, and have an interest in maintaining the trails. These clubs and groups exist partly to bring riders together and give them a collective voice precisely in situations like this.
I suppose they could have run a 6 month public consultation, taking in the opinions of mtb'ers, walkers, runners, pony clubs and everyone else that uses AC/LW, but that probably would have used up the whole budget before anyone even started to dig.
[quote=longwayhome]have a interest in making the trails all weather at any price.
Now you're just making stuff up. If you're not affiliated to any of the local clubs, i'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion. BMBC certainly is not in favour of an "all weather at any price" trail. On the contrary we'd like to see the character of the trails remain as intact as possible, but at the same time recognise that some compromises are required to create a trail that doesn't turn to shit after 30 minutes of drizzle.
As the saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time. I'm not convinced that the 50-acre wood trails dry out quicker these days. An inevitable consequence of some of the trails disappearing may be that the remaining trails are used more, and hence require more maintenance? I'm sure with the fullness of time though that more offshoots from the main runs will be established.
Change is not made without inconvenience, even from worse to better - Samuel Johnson.
Also: longwayhome et al. You don't own the trails, you're willfully ignorant of local MTB issues. Suck it up.
Can I just mention that cutting down trees and having less canopy doesn't give you drier trails at all times of year. Sure, exposing the ground to wind and sun helps, but during growing season big trees have a big thirst - bigger than Thirst Pockets and elephants put together.
ps - Hi Bristolians! I miss you guys 🙁
d1rty -
Now you're just making stuff up. If you're not affiliated to any of the local clubs, i'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion
Simply by reading the posts on this thread.
Firstly Bristol Trails Group. Now please don't make me spend ages cutting and pasting quotes, but I think you'll agree with me that MrAgreeable and others have made it abundantly clear that the Bristol Trails Group are fed up with continually fixing the existing trails and for this reason would like professionally built, all weather trails. They'd like technical interest but would really, really like not to have to mend them all the time.
I can understand this. It's a thankless task, though I here publicly acknowledge and thank them for their hard work.
Now onto the mountain biking clubs. Back on the first page we have
flashes - Member
I'm in 2 minds, I don't like gravelled paths but riding in Leigh Woods Tuesday night meant sticking to the fire roads, as the trails are pure mud, the AC trail is even worse, at least I would be able to ride all year round and Monday Cheesy rides could support normal numbers...
In other words flashes would really like to be able to ride the trails all year round come rain or shine, sometimes in a large group. Now I am making a bit of a supposition here, but I suggest that this is the prevailing attitude in all the clubs as they all seem to promote regular rides in AC/LW/FAW. I can understand why clubs like regular events and AC/LW/FAW is an easy option.
So, when did Bristol Mountain Bike Club last head out to AC/LW/FAW?
Fianlly you say
BMBC certainly is not in favour of an "all weather at any price" trail. On the contrary we'd like to see the character of the trails remain as intact as possible, but at the same time recognise that some compromises are required to create a trail that doesn't turn to shit after 30 minutes of drizzle.
So you are placing wet-weather capability above technical interest then? By "at any price" I didn't mean sell you children or lose a kidney, from the first post we've been talking about technical interest.
Now I am making a bit of a supposition here, but I suggest that this is the prevailing attitude in all the clubs
Quite a leap of faith there fella. Is it because the clubs take a responsible stance in the viability and future of the trails? Perhaps the clubs are all mincers who can't handle a steep kerb. You really do keep digging don't you?
This thread has given me untold amusement. I do love the way to some folk an eroded trail is "technical" and building a trail to be sustainable means it can no longer be "techical"
It is perfectly possible to build a trail that is sustainable in all weathers and still has technical interest.
Well done on getting the funding. It looks really promising. I'm sure Architrail will do a great job.
