[Closed] Bristol plans development of the Timberland Trail etc

I think whoever let that "artist's impression" of the new centre get into the public domain should be fired.

[url] http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bristol-trail-developments [/url]

FWIW the trails haven't been 'sanitized' at all, people still ride what was there 15 years ago. Repairs have been made by a very small group of unpaid VOLUNTEERS. The traffic is even now so high we can never keep up with the repairs needed.

The trails seriously need investment and a durable surface put in throughout - this is exactly what they propose to do. IMO the whole trail network is so shagged out, this is the only thing that can save them. It will no longer the 100% natural, but it might be less of a rutted battered blown out multiple line hub-depth quagmire with no flow. AC has insufficient topography to super techy uber gnarl - those trails in LW that have this will be left untouched.

But we will get a trail with some decent flow that will stand up to the abuse they get. We've been told we will not get a motorway - sweet twisty singletrack will remain.

I was seriously annoyed with the hawthorns section when those contractors came in and whacker-plated. But there was no other way to fix it up before the bike fest. Now its one of the only sections in AC that has really decent flow and the trail has blended back into the trees, which are still frighteningly close when you're pushing on.

The guy doing the work is world class, a local rider himself, and streets ahead of some disinterested council workers with a whacker plate. I have every expectation what he will produce will be good.

So I welcome it. Anything is better than the mess up there at the mo.

They haven't consulted any of the mountain bikers who actually ride it or know what needs doing.

Oh and this isn't true either - I was at the meeting where they spent a long time getting our views. The room was full of bristol riders. Well the ones that could be bother to turn up - not to dissimilar to the small party that turn up to fix the trails.
[url] http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/component/agora/topic?id=43 [/url]
[url] http://www.bristolmountainbikeclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=801 [/url]
[url] http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/news/160-1sw-projectbristol [/url]

They will end up sanitising the trail far more than they already have

Are you sure you ride the Bristol trails, sanitised? They are ****ed.

Oh here too:
[url] http://www.thecheesyriders.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3060&page=1#Item_0 [/url]
and here:
[url] http://www.thecheesyriders.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3066&page=1#Item_49 [/url]

From what I can see of the proposals the official route in Ashton Court will become easier but the (Timberland) trail in 50 acre wood isn't being touched.
As I understand it Leigh Woods has always been officially a prohibited area for cycling but it's never been rigourously policed so to get a proper trail and a skills area in there is good news.

I personaaly like Ashton Court as it is as I think the slippy muddy sections combined with all the roots that criss cross the trail make it interesting and just technical enough make you concentrate when riding without needing armour and as was pointed out above it's not got enough height loss / gain for some techy black downhill route.

Saying that my daughter wants to ride around the loop at Ashton Court and as it is I think there's some sections she couldn't manage (I maybe being an overprotective dad though).

If protecting / rebuilding / re-modeling the current loop a bit encourages more people to ride then it's got to be good surely, as in my view, once there was a dedicated route in place people would be expected to ONLY ride this and not the other places like the downhill by the "summer house" and that's why I think the current route is so heavily used and worn out.

I think it's quite a complex issue and in this case it's not been helped by Bristol being a "cycling city" as the council etc have to please everyone and justify money spent and probably need to show that "their" off road route through their favourite public park is accessible to all and not just a few scruffy mtbers.

Oh and seriously a BIG thanks to the BTG for spending their free time to keep the trails up together.

More nearby all-weather trails sounds good to me.

Ashton Court and Leigh Woods are practically on the doorstep of a very large city centre. The trails there get hammered 12 months of the year, so they suffer pretty badly. You will never have pristine singletrack in such a location - there isn't any there now! It has to be a good thing and I agree with everything ADH has said (the shame).

It sounds great to me - nothing worse than overuse turning trails into unrideable quagmires. Particularly keen on the pump track, beginner jumps and skills area bits!

I think this is great news. The flat xc trails around AC desperately need something. I only ride them when they they're either frozen or in high summer.
The rest of the time I can't be bothered. Will a modicum of selfcontrol from riders, these new developments should take traffic off the good natural trails in wet weather, meaning that the good trails stay good for longer. Of course, most people will probably continue to knacker the good trails in the wet, even when this alternative is available...

There has been ample consultation with those with even a passing interest in the trails in AC, and the trailbuilder is a good choice. Well done Bristol I say!

Phil Saxena doesn't make a habit of 'sanitising' tracks or trails and as said this will make the trails rideable all year hopefully. Theres so much moaning that no money is being spent then when Bristol stump up the cash, involve the local community and employ a world class trail builder thats not good enough either. If it means I have a trail centre on my doorstep that not only pro level xc'ers but myself and my kids can ride year round then bring it on.

Have you seen the stupid [url= http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Bike-trails-make-envy-UK/article-3123960-detail/article.html ]comments on the this is bristol site?[/url]

400,000 for mountain bike trails. Is the world going mad?

I presume that the people who use them will be charged to try and recoup some cash or will it simply be funded by the motorist?

sounds like they have their very own TJ as well. He's called George 😀

and like theres anyone actually called Timothy living in Bedminster.

I'm in 2 minds, I don't like gravelled paths but riding in Leigh Woods Tuesday night meant sticking to the fire roads, as the trails are pure mud, the AC trail is even worse, at least I would be able to ride all year round and Monday Cheesy rides could support normal numbers...

good news. lots of other trails if you don't want to ride theirs.
something for everyone and a cafe. Great.

just gutted I don't live in Brizol anymore.

Bit early to make assumptions IMO.
I'll just wish mr saxena the best of luck. I've only ridden AC/LW twice. Didn't like it but look forward to trying again after the work.

Bit early to make assumptions IMO.
I'll just wish mr saxena the best of luck

Indeed.

I used to ride in LW & surrounding environs pretty much every day (ah, the beauty of shiftwork) during the summer/autumn... & avoided it religiously during winter. And I grew up on Mendip - where the mud [i]eats[/i] bikes.

I can't wait to be back.

There will be (hopefully) all season semi-technical trails which Bristol really needs, and the other, old, "interesting" stuff will still be there for those who know where it is to ride.

I struggle to see anything negative in all this.

When are you back noteeth?

[i]When are you back noteeth?[/i]

Summer, if all goes to plan...

First opportunity I get, I'm riding out to Blackdown & up to the Trig point.

And then I'll sit there for a while. 😀

and like theres anyone actually called Timothy living in Bedminster.

I know one of the guys on the build team, he races WC 4x so knows a fair bit about making a nice trail that flows yo. All good as far as I'm concerned, shame I won't be around to enjoy it 🙁

Personally I'm with the OP and racemonkey on this one, I like AC the way it is - rutted and rooty and technical - I just don't go up there when it's wet. Mind you, you need a few idiots who do to make it what it is.

The problem is that the Timberland Trail already covers most of the wooded area (that's not deer enclosure) in AC so there's little latitude for additional bits off the main route.

LW on the other hand is a vast wooded area with tracks all over the place, all of which are a bit permissive. Here an official route would legitimise mountain biking in the woods whilst allowing harder, off-piste additions. It would also link in with the easy motorway down to Paradise Bottom and the cycle track along the river.

If it means I have a trail centre on my doorstep that not only pro level xc'ers but myself and my kids can ride ...

ridingscared

I can't see that happening, they're blue trails remember.

I've missed all this as usual because I can't get on the forum at work, but just to clarify a few points:

- The trail at the moment has terrible problems with drainage and soil type in particular, and has had needed regular work over the past 4-5 years to keep it running. This has all been undertaken by volunteers, as ADH says - a situation that can't really continue indefinitely.

- The trails are going to be a mix of blue, red and skills area. To be honest I think all the current official trails would be graded as blue if they weren't in such an awful state for the wetter months of the year.

- There are some other projects in the works that will complement the main trails, such as the pump and jump track on the way to the trails, and it also looks likely (although not definite) that Still is going to reopen as a DH venue. Also the trail in 50 Acre is going to stay natural and there may be scope to develop other places as riding spots too.

- Even if you don't think the development plan is catering to most riders' needs, it makes much more sense to start with something accessible and build on it, rather than risk creating a white elephant which only a few riders will use.

- Leigh Woods is really crying out for an official trail. It has a reputation as a great place to ride, but the number of completely knackered trails there has grown over the past few years as it becomes a victim of its own popularity. The ones in the worst state (which are almost certainly the ones that get the most use) are the gentle flowy trails across the top of the wood, not the scary steep stuff.

- When you're consulting for a project like this, it's nigh-on impossible to involve everyone.

- The design for the trail isn't planned out to the last detail, and there is plenty of scope for tweaking as the builders figure out what works where.

If anyone's got any specific questions, feel free to drop me an email. I'm not on the design team, I just co-ordinate the volunteer repair efforts, but to his credit the designer has tried to actively involve the volunteers in the design process as much as possible, so I feel pretty clued up (not to mention optimistic) about the project.

Cheers

Antony

Have to reply to this

The trails are going to be a mix of blue, red and skills area

From the published plans the proposed trails appear to be 90% blue with a small red section each in AC and LW and a skills area in LW. That's not much of a mix.

To be honest I think all the current official trails would be graded as blue if they weren't in such an awful state for the wetter months of the year.

Yes, so they're probably about red as they are. Nice!

There are some other projects in the works that will complement the main trails, such as the pump and jump track on the way to the trails, and it also looks likely (although not definite) that Still is going to reopen as a DH venue.

I (and I think others) don't want pump or jump or downhill, I want a continuous red graded trail. Like AC is at the moment!

rather than risk creating a white elephant which only a few riders will use.

I don't think there's any chance the existing track in AC would ever become an unused white elephant.

Leigh Woods is really crying out for an official trail....

Here we agree.

Finally ...

Even if you don't think the development plan is catering to most riders' needs, it makes much more sense to start with something accessible and build on it

Why? Why take away people's amenity? AC's only problem is overpopularity, which would be relieved by having an easier, all-weather route in LW. And as stated above, there's not much room for alternatives in AC.

noteeth: "First opportunity I get, I'm riding out to Blackdown & up to the Trig point."

Alert the locals nearer the time and we'll help you celebrate your return.

Still Woods was the biggest loss to bristol riding, that place was special 🙁

The timberland trail? its a bit dull, I can only imagine that the addition of hard packed sanitized trails will be erm, good for emptying the dog along?

I want a continuous red graded trail. Like AC is at the moment!

Eh? A few roots do not a red trail make. In the dry I commute in on it on my slicked-up road bike FFS.

Some people really will look a gift horse in the mouth.

Eh? A few roots do not a red trail make. In the dry I commute in on it on my slicked-up road bike FFS.

You Sir are rad to the power of sick.

did you know that phrase comes from the fact that you can gain a reasonable idea of a horses age by looking at how much of their teeth are showing, you'll probably also be familiar with the phrase "long in the tooth" and again that's of a similar origin. So in essence, don't look a gift horse in the mouth as you may find something a little disappointing if you peer too deep.

so there we go, there end the lesson.

This thread highlights the Bristolian attitude to sport in the City, no consensus and so nothing gets done. I'm pretty happy with the plans, some reservations that the trail appears to be 95% blue, but looking forwards to a pump track and jumps area (for over 30s please, no intimiding yoofs!).

The cafe will be a great edition, hopefully with a more cheery proprietor and no "no muddy bikers" signs...

My main worry would be if the unofficial trails in Leigh Woods were closed to bikes, I dont think that would be the case though, the Knicker Trail etc should main open. As pointed out, LW is a mud fest right now (no surprise I know) and unrideable in parts.

But, I'll believe it when I see it, cant believe this is going to be done by the end of the summer....

Being as I am, rad to the power of sick, I am well aware of the origins of the phrase.

Its a gift, even if you're going to boil it for glue, you're still quids-in.

Its a gift, even if you're going to boil it for glue, you're still quids-in.

I owned (by default) a racehorse once, it cost me many, many £'s to look after, If I had sold it for glue it still would have owed me many, many £'s.

Eh? A few roots do not a red trail make.

Magenta then! It's certainly a bit more than blue, which was my point.

Its a gift, even if you're going to boil it for glue, you're still quids-in.

Not if they've taken away your thoroughbred and given you an old nag, which again, was my point.

I agree with magenta in present state. But they want a blue trail with red bits in it. Fair enough.

But they want a blue trail with red bits in it.

Have you seen the plans? They want a blue trail with a tiny bit of red for decoration.

[img] [/img]

([url= ]Link for larger map[/url])

I'm just baffled that there are people that enjoy riding AC in the wet. Even compared to 2004 when I moved to Bristol, it is now totally trashed. Flat trails with big wet holes in them are just no fun to me. Anthony and team's fantastic efforts mean that the trails are still pretty good in the dry, but I'd rather have a weatherproof, flowy blue trail that I could get some winter night riding in on than the current quagmire. The OP makes out that it is some mecca of technical XC riding that is going to be 'sanitized'. It isn't, it's a blown out mess of what used to be nice woodland single track.

Just because at present novices find it difficult while more experienced riders can ride it with no trouble doesn't mean that it is good riding.

longwayhome - what have you done so far to enhance the trails in the area? You seem hard over that what is planned is bad, what is there is what is wanted and the first funded trail should be what you want.

The Timberland Trail is battered. Another trail, of any grade, FUNDED, has to be a good thing, even if you are too gnar to ride it. I'd guess the vast majority of riders will get more out of what is planned than what you suggest, so the majority gets it - democracy in action. Pump and downhill? Diversity is great and welcomed. This is a city centre facility, not a Welsh valley. It has to survive over-use more than anything.

Another trail, of any grade, FUNDED, has to be a good thing

Yes, for LW where there is not an existing continuous trail but a series of excursions off the main tracks. No to AC where there is something already in existence that is more interesting than the sanitised version we will be handed back that has little possibility of harder detours.

I'd guess the vast majority of riders will get more out of what is planned than what you suggest

Sorry to sound like Laocoon, but I think a lot of people will miss the current AC (in dry conditions) when it’s gone. In fact I think my plan offers something for everyone, not just a dumbing-down all round.

so the majority gets it - democracy in action

As the OP said, I don’t think much effort was made to consult local riders, I certainly didn’t hear anything about it until the recent announcement.

Pump and downhill? Diversity is great and welcomed

I’m not against pump, jump and/or downhill, just that it’s not a replacement for the current AC Magenta.

This is a city centre facility

No, that would be Broadmead or Lloyds Amphitheatre. This is city limits.

I can understand people's reservations about what's happening to the trail in Ashton Court, and yes the roots will go (there will probably still be some rocks) and the new trail will probably be ridiculously quick to get round compared with the old rutted struggle-fest.

I'm not sure I recognise the description of it as a "continous red trail" though - it's more like a few OK sections of singletrack linked up with road, gravel tracks and muddy slogs along the edges of fields. If, as planned, the new trail uses fewer of the dull connecting bits, narrows the stupidly wide sections and adds a few more twists and turns (a lot of the trail is very straight at the moment) then it may not even seem that much shorter.

People also seem to be downplaying the problems that bad weather causes. Next time you're riding the section along the quarry fence, have a look at the edges. In places it is 6" below the surrounding soil due to erosion. That in turn makes decent drainage a near-impossibility, which increases erosion as people cut through the wet trail surface or worse, go round the puddles and widen the trail. It's a vicious circle that requires some major work to reverse.

By my reckoning we spent around 300 man hours working on the Ashton Court trail last year and it's still verging on unrideable in the winter, unless it's frozen. And don't forget that we recently had two summers on the trot that were near wash-outs too. The new trail is going to be built in a way that addresses these problems . To my mind that's better having something that's fun to ride for just a couple of months a year, after lots of hard work has gone into it.

As for making the trails easier to ride, it's only one trail out of a number we have in Bristol, and it's the first place that many people go when they want to try mountain biking. Of course I want more technical trails in my life but there are other places where they exist, or can be built in the future. I can see where the project managers were coming from when they decided that Ashton Court should be a beginner-friendly experience.

There are defintiely concessions to more experienced riders. 50 Acre Wood is being left under rider control (that's about 50% of the singletrack in the Timberland Trail) and there should be plenty of techy features dotted about the easier trails. Parts of the new Leigh Woods trail are also going to have to be built by hand - from experience I'd say it's hard to end up with a dull uniform trail when you're doing this.

We have been consistently pushing for harder official trails in Bristol and the stumbling block we always come up against is that the current trails don't really fit the brief as a hard trail (too flat and too popular with beginners) yet they're not beginner-friendly either.

There's also the problem that there is no reason for the current trails to attract further development or investment. They exist but they have fairly limited appeal. So we end up fixing them for free with minimal resources.

The new trails are going to offer people a much more consistent experience, and there's a chance to build businesses (and therefore revenue streams for trail development) off the back of this, and expand the official network to include more challenging facilities in the future. I doubt this would ever happen if the new trails were designed specifically to appeal to a core audience of a couple of hundred experienced mountain bikers.

Sorry for the length of this ramble, but just one more point. It annoys me when riders complain about being kept out of the loop, when I'm maintaining a website, a forum (hardly used), a mailing list, a Facebook page, a Twitter feed (alright, the last two are the same), [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bristol-trail-development-consultation ]and starting the odd thread on STW[/url], not to mention our web address and my phone number are on signs at the start of the Ashton Court and 50 Acre trail.

If you want to know what's going on then you can drop us an email, phone me, or if you don't use Facebook/don't have an internet connection/can;t use a phone/aren't literate, you can always stop and talk to us when you see us on a trail day. I'm also planning an informal meeting where hopefully some representatives from the deisgners can come along and answer questions - more details to follow soon.

Very well said mr agreeable.

Aye. Sounds good to me. When's the next dig? 🙂

Lots of fair weather bikers here; I would like to point out that this is a luxury opinion. I am one of those who ride AC in the wet/snow/dry. Like many, I plan my rides in advance and have to work them in around family and professional commitments. If it is raining on that 'special' day I am left with the choice to either wait a couple of weeks, or hit the trails!

Hit the trails everytime!

Thanks to all those who volunteer their free time to maintain the trails that give me so much joy and respite. While I can't join you in this maintenance, I give you my full respect appreciate that this project and investment is testament to the trails that they provide us with. So stop yer winging and enjoy the ride!