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get the toilets before 12 please 🙂
Course was great, marshals great, prizes amazing (i didnt get any).
Nice mug.
Superb - huge thanks to all involved
twojumpers - timelaps managed to miss my team mates final lap but when I spoke to him, it looked like he had to manually enter the race numbers for some reason, and had written down 368 rather than 268 so manually edited it.
Contact them with your race number and the approximate time of the missed lap and you may find something similar happened. I assumed the timing chips did all of that but seemingly not.
I found all of the fast riders perfectly polite when announcing their planned overtakes but I was only passed 5 or 6 times in total (down to luck rather than speed sadly!) so maybe not a true representation.
We had a great time - rode the 20 miles over, did the race, rode to the pub where we had so many beer tokens we drank til 3am, then rode home. Got to bed at 4.45am. Brilliant!
Here's my feedback for what its worth.
Great event - we are so lucky to have this on our doorstep. Shame there aren't more local events at Stanmer. Thanks to all those who put the time and effort in to organise the race.
My race went well - lapping at 1.00 hour pace - aim was five but stuck with four as the head was going a bit from concentrating too hard to stay on the bike - pesky roots.
Course was tricky in parts - surprised there was no chicken run on the steep chute to the bottom of badgers - far more tricky than A&E IMO. On the other hand forced me to ride it as no other way down.
I could imagine that would freek any beginners out a little!
My other comment is that there was a lot of shouting, barging, high speed overtaking going on from the leaders. I know they are serious athletes and happy to let them past whenever possible but not, totally, at the expense of my own ride. On multiple occassions people pushed past at high speed which forced me to move off line and f*** up a particular section. Not the end of the world of course but as a previous person mentioned we all pay our fee and its the middle rankers / beginners who make up a large portion of particiapants in any sport and add to the party atmosphere / onward development of the sport.
This is just a small niggle that doesn't detract from a brilliant day but it would be a shame if the aforementioned group started to feel this race wasn't for them.
It goes without saying if i was knocking out 9 laps my thoughts might be somewhat different.
DC (middle ranking vet)
I saw a lot of people being very patient behind slower riders. Not a lot of problems from my perspective.
I didnt shout out to slower riders once yet on my last lap some slower riders seemed to just dive out the way - quite handy really.
Thanks for the tip hughjayteens, I'll pop them an email.
I've found that on a couple of races this year. The slower riders just stop at the side of the track for you to pass before you can even ask - makes me feel guilty!
We still like to be thanked though!
Yep my first BDB, even though I'm local. Been told by my son to make sure we keep next year's weekend free.
Agree with darkcyan - only did the 1derdog but noted more 'keenness' on the part of the faster riders than most other races I've been in. I thought it was probably due to the amount of great singletrack where over-taking is harder.
Most riders were polite though which was good.
Here's my excuse list '09 - entries all gone 👿 particularly as I was Etape fit, '10 - hols, '11 - virus
[b]TimP:[/b] Absolutely. Apart from just being nicer, people are usually way more cooperative if you're polite to them and I like to think people would be equally decent when passing me.
Everyone was very nice at BD though. Even the two guys I moved aside for half way down A+E (battling 1st and 2nd in one of the team cats, I think, and absolutely hooning down) shouted [i]thanks[/i] as they blatted past.
great day.
thoroughly dissapointed in my performance on teh climbs. defo could have done more laps but struggled mentally to attack the climbs. love the course after badgers. in fact on non race days i dont mind badgers either which is why i`m annoyed. doing the 3 peaks 2 weeks before is not good race prep.
passing was a bit hit and miss. i like to think i moved over where possible. some points it was hard to stop safely so you had accept to hold back till you could pass. suprisingly i only got overtook on the wider climbs. then i overtook back on the descents.
didnt think the roots were an issue at all. roots were a bit slippy on hte 2 techy climbs if you are stomping but otherwise you just ride them as normal?
being local meant either having loads of fun or being frustrated/amused in equal measure on the descents. i`m sure the descents are harder to ride slower. i had great fun.
no issued with passing. slower riders tended to move out of the way of their own accord. I asked a couple of times for a pass where safe. some of the intermediate riders needed a bit of encouragement to either not brake or move on the descent. Plenty of good banter/heckling/chat/encouragement and even a bit of racing on the way round.
wasnt keen on the marmite used to pave the top end of the course. horrible stuff - really sticky and energy sapping.
defo back next year. hopefully i`ll be able to train a bit before hand.
Some great pics here:
http://moranphotography.co.uk/brightonbigdog2012/
Passing is always a contentious topic at events where you have a mixture of fun and Elite riders on a course together. Opinions about what constitutes a passing opportunity vary considerably between people depending on their experience - you want to try an Elite National on the last lap.... I hope that I passed people politely and don't remember otherwise. I always say thanks (although sometimes more clearly than others as it's hard when you are breathing out of your arse) and usually "when we can please" if it's a very long bit of trail.
It's clearly a different event to XC race and I try to joke with riders when they make a mistake and pull in front of me, wobble or slow down rather than getting arsey. I did have a good giggle at the chap who kept blocking me on a descent where there was loads of room, then speared off into the trees as he was going a bit to fast. From behind you could see it coming... On the narrow bits I just sat and encouraged. I tend to find from these events that the shoving/rudeness isn't actually the lead riders, who on the whole I know to be very polite as I race with them a lot, but is the level below that - riders in team kit thinking shoving and rudeness is ok on their quest for 29th...
I just wish people would learnt to look over their shoulder before suddenly pulling to one side of a fire road... I mean, you would check your blind spot in a car, right...?
It's just a hobby. It's meant to be fun and enjoyable. It always amazes and amuses me when I see people taking it all a little too seriously...
GB
I got my left and right a little mixed up when politely asked to move, so sorry for anyone I messed up - it was my first race. Had a brilliant time though - thanks to everyone who was there for making it a great day.
Gee I think you got it just about right in your post - hope we havent offended anyone who finished 29th!!!!
Was amazed at the skills of the better riders - its as if the roots / chalk / mud are not a concern to them - especially as they all had very fast looking tyres.
Great to get the insights of really good racers on this thread as dont often come into contact with them - that said me and paceman have got tickets to the olympic mens event next week.
Gee - just out of interest is it a given that Killeen or Beckensale would win BBD by a country mile or is it not quite so straight forward.
Would they find the course very easy?
DC
Great feedback so far - many thanks.
Looks like you'd like to see it back again in 2013 - excellent!
Yes, either of those two would win, although not by miles - Liam beats Ben by about 5-8 mins over a 1.5hr race, so maybe he'd win by 20mins or so. Depends how hard they tried, really. People tend to ride quick enough to win, if you see what I mean.
The course wasn't particularly challenging in an "oh god I'm going to die" sense like some courses, but it was damn hard work to ride it fast for 6hrs. Just perfect for an endurance race. If you want a top tip here's one from the 4X arm of our team - don't brake on roots/rocks as you'll crash. Just keep pedalling, pop the front wheel up and hang on. Worked for me.
GB
Gee thanks for the tip - just out of interest what course is one of those oh my god ones.
DC
That's interesting reading, Gee, cheers. Well since this is the "Big Dog Training" thread....As someone further back doing 6 hour solos, I'd like to know how hard you front guys are pushing for six hours? I can see from the times that everyone's laps drop off naturally but are you guys going fairly hard for the whole race to get those times? or are you beginning to coast a bit after the first couple of hours?
(another way of asking do I need to extend my base fitness so that my "coasting" speed is faster? or do I need to extend my endurance so I can keep up a hard effort for longer?) thanks!
I found this year's National at Kirroughtree a bit like that as it had pissed with rain the days before so it was really muddy, dark, rooty, rocky and slippy. Medusa's at Dalby also got me this year as it was hailing heavily. Normally not a problem in the dry. Watching the World Cups on the web I'd love to try Pietermartizburg as that looked mental with all the drops and jumps.
Jim - it's a level down from and XC race. We pushed hard for a lap or so to make sure we didn't get held up at the start or have a numpty crash in front of us, then slowed a bit. I felt like crap for the middle 2 hours so slowed by a min or so a lap, then felt better again at the end. In terms of training I think a combo of long rides to build endurance as well as an amount of interval training and of course weights/core is needed for this sort of event. At an XC race there is little/no time for rests eg behind a backmarker and there are a lot more attacks by riders during the race. Enduros are a lot more leisurely, we were having a chat, until someone gets knackered (which was me this weekend!).
What a great event... I haven't really been enjoying riding in the past few weeks and BBD turned that around. Great atmosphere and a fun course.
Don't know if he's on here, but I do owe one of the slower riders (red jersey, riding a Cotic) an apology 😳
In my defence, we were 2nd in the team event and only a few minutes off first...
Slow rider held me up for a while on the 2nd-last descent and I just stayed behind because there was nowhere to pass. Then he stopped dead on a root across the trail. I managed to avoid crashing into the back of him, but he didn't let me past. I asked if I could get by when he had the chance, and he finally did move out on a wider corner, stopping to let me through. But then his rear wheel swung back out into my path as I rode through, knocking my bars out-of-line. I passed, carried on a bit, stopped to straighten them, then passed him a bit later.
Wasn't very polite to him after the lap when he suggested I tighten my bars 🙁
TBH, I was still a bit fired up from the lap.
Generally, people were really good out there, and I either ask nicely or just tell them where I'm going if I'm heading off-line to get past.
There are always a few Aidan...
I definately think people should bear in mind that a lot of the riders who are gunning it find it difficult to string any sort of sentence together at some points. I laughed on the first lap as some hardcore fella tried to say 'on your left' during one of the initial climbs; it came out sort of 'mmmmwraghffff'!
The more I race the less offence I take, it's all part of the game.
I'm always polite when asking to pass and usually am very impressed how quickly people get out the way. The effusiveness of my thank you is usually in proportion to how off the racing line the other rider has got. If someone doesn't move over at a suitable point then I think a firmer command is justifed. I have to admit liking the feeling of doing a dominant overtake, I'm mild mannered in normal life so enjoy getting a bit macho on the course. Sorry, but that's how it is.
Well thats all well and good but Big Dog is packed full of comparatively mediocre riders like myself. We, I guess should ride through the foliage well off the racing line to let the race snakes through.
Sounds reasonable - do we get a discount?
n.b. changing the subject - how beautiful is that White carbon 29er - that bike just took my breath away.
Anyone on this thread got one or want one?
Well thats all well and good but Big Dog is packed full of comparatively mediocre riders like myself. We, I guess should ride through the foliage well off the racing line to let the race snakes through.Sounds reasonable - do we get a discount?
Not sure if that's in response to me but...
I wouldn't want anyone to significantly hamper their ride to let me past (which is pretty much what Gee was saying, too). The onus is on the faster rider to find a way to make it work, or the pair of you to negotiate something that works for both of you.
If you have to stop/dismount, though, then the first thing you should do is check behind and give way to people who are still riding. If someone's been following you for a while when that happens, you really ought to give way. It's just basic riding etiquette.
I do feel bad about being unfriendly to the chap afterwards, though. Ultimately, we're not racing for life-changing positions and there are lots of uncontrollable variables so it's not a big deal.
Let's not sour what was an awesome ride. It was well organised, had a great soundtrack, and was fun to ride.
Gee: Thanks, that's useful to hear. Yeah, I really enjoyed the WC this year and Pietermaritzberg was maybe my favourite course / race to watch. Proper mountain biking but the course is open enough to film well too. That log staircase looked pretty evil. I seem to remember Frischy saying he Shat himself when he rode it...
Great race, thanks to all the marshalls and everybody who put it on, without their dedication and time, this just wouldn't happen. The big dog is always amazing and a nice techy course with a great atmosphere.
Everyone in our group of 3 teams, which included first time racers and ones who have been at it for years, had an awesome experience.
Bring on next year!
Oh and + 1 what Aidan said
A few thoughts... There's nothing that difficult about the wet roots at Stanmer if (and this is a big IF) you:
1. Stay loose and think forwards, over and beyond.
2. Preload the bike before you hit them if they're not perpendicular.
3. Have your tyre pressures reasonably low.
4. Ride at them fast enough.
Following my very early puncture I spent the rest of lap 1 overtaking riders and I noticed loads of them doing the following when faced with slippery roots or rutted muddy sections:
1. Braking both before and during the section.
2. Shifting their body position bolt upright and even sitting down as well.
3. Looking down at the worrying root/rut just in front of their wheel.
The end result was a lot of bouncing and sliding around with the rider looking unbalanced and/or scared.
The problem for anyone following, whether or not they want to appear aggressive or whether or not they're desperate to overtake, is that if you're forced into braking because the rider in front is panic braking, then that following rider risks becoming a root victim too, as their bike/person system bounces off the roots, rather than smoothly flowing over them. So some of the overtakees may have found the odd overtaking manoeuvre a bit aggressive/scary as the following rider was just doing their best to carry speed and not come off on the roots due to hitting them too slowly. I know this all too well having pretty much learned to ride mountain bikes properly in Stanmer over the last few years - speed is your friend!
On the narrow sections I overtook on the racing line if the riders in front would let me past (which they all seemed to quite happily) whilst on the wider sections I overtook on the other side of trees, way off-camber, over root systems and most memorably through a bush (drawing blood). On the uphill techy sections it was more difficult because without a granny ring my minimum speed was sometimes higher than that of the person in front, then I'd lose traction and have to hop off and push. As I'm no XC racer I'd didn't mind having a breather and stretching my legs!
I guess the inevitable problems occur when you get someone killing themselves racing for the podium trying to pass someone else who's all fired up with fear, so there's just too much adrenalin and suchlike involved. I did try to gently chivvy a few riders down Badgers' Plunge as each lap I found myself behind a line of people braking too much and sliding out of control and thus braking more - maybe a section for a long way round chicken run?
On the section before (down through the chalk bowl thing and then the offcamber descent with the odd rooty moment which then doubles back onto the fireroad) I wouldn't mind the rooty drop to the fireroad being reinstated next year, with this year's line as the chicken run. It's a nice technical challenge and was part of the course in 2009 and 2010 and I don't think anyone was killed to death... 😉
Cheers for the tips on Stanmer root riding CGG, I'd like to think I have a similar technique, but only when I'm really 'on it' with commitment if you know what I mean (the inner scaredy cat needs to be kept at bay sometimes!).
I agree, lower tyre pressures make a huge difference to grip on our local trail roots too, and I'm pretty sure a lot of riders on Saturday were running higher pressures thinking they'd reduce rolling resistance. Preloading, and staying light/loose being the way to go. Switching to a 29er recently has also made a huge difference to my confidence on roots, ruts, drops etc.
BigDog attracts alot of riders from other areas I think, and we need to also bear in mind many aren't use to the terrain, geology, rooty nature of the Stanmer trails we are so lucky to have. Even popular riding areas as close as Surrey Hills, Swinley Forest etc are completely different to ride in the wet, not having Stanmer's mud on chalk trail surface.
I'd also like to see the drop-off you mention back in the BD loop, and yes it would would as a technical line choice giving an advantage over those choosing he chicken run. We call that drop 'Stanmer Wall'. One day I'd also love to see some of the trails on the other side of Stanmer used for a BigDog style event.
Great discussion by the way,
Paceman
Rollindoughnut - sounds like you might need to chill out a bit. One call is enough, they know you're there...
Just had a thought having digested this really interesting string of comments - wouldn't it be great to have a master class or whatever they call it pre race - maybe at 10.00 - 11.00 where those who are interested could go round a few of the sections on the course to demonstrate / discuss line / technique etc.
We have the cream of cross country riding coming to our door step each year yet don't really get a chance to tap in to that experience in a structured way.
I'm sure I've seen that other events have something similar.
Seems to me thats a great way for the race heads to give something back to the masses who I think it has been established on the whole do get out the way most of the time as son as they can.
I for one would find that brilliant.
Gee / Napalm / GCC / Aiden assume you fall into the very good rider / racer category?
Just a thought!
Other than 'don't brake' and 'pedal faster' I'm not sure I could give much useful help...? Maybe on line choice I suppose. In my head it's all about fast reactions and decisions. I'd be happy to do something though, although I'd feel a bit silly doing it.
DC, I'm no XC racer but I'd put money on being able to match their pace on the descents and corners and other features in Stanmer - and I can think of at least a dozen locals I ride with who are as quick as me or quicker. Come out with us in the weeks/months beforehand! We did 'Big Dog Tuesday' for a few weeks before (should have been more but Stanmer was broken by weather) and there's nothing like trying to keep up with quicker riders for teaching you how fast you can ride, especially when they're fitter than you so you have to brake as little as possible to conserve energy (and they're all older than me too, so I've no excuse!) We're out every Thursday (slower) and Tuesday (faster but still not XC race pace by any means - apart from during the month preceding Big Dog), meeting at 7pm at the uni sports centre car park.
Although I can see some line choice tips being useful and applicable during the race, the stuff that matters requires repetition to internalise so you can apply it when knackered mid-race. And the line choice isn't rocket science, it's just a case of finding the smoothest line in 3D space and if the smoothest line takes a low grip path where you need a substantial applied force (apex of a corner, rooty step in a climb) then change the line to a grippier one. And where it's off-camber, get high or stay high.
thanks guys. I know some of the brighton mtb guys so can hook up with them to do a little extra homework for next year.
Funny thing is i ride these trails a lot and typically am fine wet and dry - its when its damp and you want to go faster and then add lots of other riders into the mix that things change.
DC
Pre-race coaching sounds like a good idea and I know some events do it, but what is possible really depends on where you're starting from.
Someone who has been riding for a long time and needs incremental improvements needs quite individual attention. Typically, it's about breaking bad habits and making subtle refinements. So a coach needs to watch them closely to give good feedback. And that means a small ratio of coach : riders.
Getting the very basics for someone who has done hardly any mountain biking is much less subtle and can usually be done with more riders per coach. It only gets more complicated where confidence issues come in.
That's why the coaching sessions at races are usually aimed at kids/beginners.
(I do work as a coach sometimes, but not generally in the summer as I need to race/train at the weekends)
Thanks Aiden - I probably fall into the category of ride a lot, race very little.
Will definitely try and do a skills course at some point.
On big dog, when its damp i think the knowledge is kind of there but confidence not quite.
E.g. I really didn't like Jedi where i was convinced the front wheel would slide out at high speed at any moment on the angled roots that were off camber as well.
DC
gee - Member
Rollindoughnut - sounds like you might need to chill out a bit. One call is enough, they know you're there...
I think I'm alright. I'm really polite and no-one has ever had a go at me for my passing. I just enjoy coming up behind people and saying 'on your left/right please', makes me feel fast.
Stilletoes on Wheels, the women only MTB race at Stanmer in September, has a bookable pre-ride on the Friday evening and on the Saturday morning. It's run by the event organisers / course designers and aims to show riders the the fastest/racing line, the smoothest line, and the safest lines on each section. A good idea I think.
Someone came up behind me, sounded knackered, shouted on your right. Felt as if he was right next to my ear at this point as passed on my left. I sh*t myself and so did he. Quite funny really
Taff, I had a very similar moment where confusion over left/right from the overtaking rider almost sent me into the brambles, funny looking back on it but I wasn't amused at the time!
Will the Stilletoes on Wheels race be the same/similar course??
[b]cyclisttm:[/b] I believe it's a similar but cut down verion. The Coldean section is omitted (that side was actually riding really nicely on Sat) and some of the technical sections have been removed.
There's a map up on here that should give you a pretty good idea:
[img] 
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thanks, will see if some of the ladies in our club are up for this.
Cool. I think it will be a pretty good balance between a good race course and not too intimidating for people that might not have raced before. I'll be marshalling, my wife is racing it too.