[Closed] Breathable waterproofs: An urban myth or am I just a sweaty betty?

No, they all do that. Get a cycling cape.

Wear less underneath so you don't overheat - but a "breathable" waterproof cannot get rid of the amount of water vapour you produce when exercising hard.

eVent's the only thing I've used that's been acceptable. In fact, I think it's pretty darned good

Tried wearing less underneath, so you don't get as hot, and don't sweat so much? I always go with the "cold in the carpark = right temp when riding" rule.

If I wear any less underneath I would have nothing on. I wear a thermal top and that's it. It too was soggy. That was kind of my point. I don't feel to be over-heating at any stage. My body must just sweat for the fun of it 🙂

Are you "big boned"? the larger more rotund amongst us have a lower surface area to volume ratio so find it harder to lose heat so tend to sweat more. Not a lot that can be done about that.

Another eVent fan here.

One key thing is how you layer, as that can really have an impact on moving the sweat away from you and on to the jacket, and then on out. I've recently switched to merino base layers (Endura and Patagonia) and am very much impressed.

I'm a really sweaty bugger and nothing works for me either! I've settled on a merino wool base layer and an eVent jacket and this is the best combo for me when the temp is above about 8deg C.

So I agree with the wear less philosophy.

But unlike your good self stilltortoise my core/main body is boiling all the time.

What doesn't help are backpacks, they ruin me in terms of sweating but sadly a cage and bottle on my Prophet just doesn't work.

Am not rotund at all and sweat like fury.

eVent's really good if you are realistic about what any breathable jacket is ever going to do. You'll still sweat, whatever you're wearing next to your skin will still get wet, and not all that mositure will escape, even if a lot of it does.

In addition to that water will get in at the neck and up the sleeves sooner or later.

I bought a Montane eVent softshell off Ebay last year. The fabric is waterproof but the seams aren't sealed, so it's not technicallly 100% waterproof. That said, it's never leaked though in the 3-4 times it's been used in rain. I wear it for general winter night rides and when we stop there's literally steam coming off me all over, so I can see it's breathing. I just wear a merino base layer underneath it and it's superb, no other word for it. 🙂

I'm a veritable rake and have the same problems with sogginess on the inside of my jacket.

I've tried a Gore XCR jacket which was touted as being the breathableist fabric around - it's been rubbish and I'm not sad that the zip has recently broken. With that jacket I think the outer fabric had a lot to do with it as it was pants at being water-repellent and got mucky very easily (when a breathable fabric is wet or dirty it simply stops being breathable, though is still waterproof).

A North Face HyVent-something-or-other jacket seems to be a little better but I've just bought a [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/clothing/jackets/product/countdown-jacket-29476 ][u]Gore Paclite jacket[/u][/url] that has proven to be much better, just because it repels water and crud very well, thus remaining breathable.

The other alternative is a jacket that sacrifices a little waterproofing (so more "water resistant" than proof) for breathability thus providing a balance between water [i]coming through[/i] and water [i]staying in[/i]...

Having asked for, & received, a Pace 3x3 'e-vent' jacket for xmas, I've been a little disappointed how damp it's got inside, but that's probably through having too-high expectations (will have to try the merino stuff soon). I'm a pretty slim build, & usually sweat less than most.. It's definitely better than my old Altura though. Going to stop testing it out in dry weather soon!

I wondered when someone would ask the big boned question, but no I'm not. I'm average build. My base layer is a Duofold jobbie that used to be popular in the outdoor world 10 year ago or so. I have had Merino before - albeit cheapo - and it was OK. Maybe I'll try it again.

Funnily enough I did have a pack on but my back wasn't the sweatiest bit of me

Cheers

Get fitter, sweat less.

Or, don't bother with a waterproof and keep warm by not stopping.

Membrane jackets just can't shed vapour fast enough, particulary if its raining

Paramo is more breathable but to warm for cycling for much of the year

Ookay. So here's how it works.

Breathable fabric lets water vapour through, right? And it does - that's a fact. So if you sweat and it evapourates off your skin, it'll go through the fabric at a certain rate. However if you sweat too much, liquid will form on your skin ie you feel wet - and that's not going to be magicked away by breathable fabric. So what you need is something to help the liquid sweat evaporate from your skin.

That's why you ALSO need a base layer under your waterproof which soaks up the sweat and transports it to its outside, from whence it can evaporate more easily, a process known as wicking. Lots of base layers are advertised as wicking, some are better than others. Most reputable brands are good, but I have to say in my experience merino isn't quite as good as synthetic for wicking and is also warmer which can exacerbate the problem.

If you are cycling hard and you're warm hence sweating a lot, you'll most likely produce far more sweat than could ever be shifted through eVent. The only option then is to cool down by opening up the zips and vents.

You may want to consider not using a waterproof at all. Even if its raining, you can still stay warm and cosy using appropriate clothing and a windproof layer, which will be much more breathable than a waterproof. You are only wearing the waterproof when it's raining hard, aren't you?

To dress appropriately you need a base layer for sweat wicking, as much fleece insulation as is appropriate (fleece transports sweat nicely) and an outer shell to stop the wind ripping through you, if it's cold.

I ride in windproof, fleece and base layer if it's cold, then I lose the fleece if it's above say 5 degrees and use various thicknesses of base layer until it's maybe 15 or so when I'll ride in just a base layer.

Don't use 10 year old base layers either. I had one and it was nothing like as good as a modern one. Plus, it wasn't even stretch enough to hug me skin tight as a base layer needs to do. And it was quite warm which wasn't good when trying to manage sweat.

If you open your jacket to vent the vapour condenses and turns to fluid, which is unable to pass through the fabric. I know it's a lot more complex than that but i can't be bothered to explain. I’m sure someone will be a along with a "Google-n-paste" to clarify things shortly!

So boys, keep it zipped 😀

Do you actually need to wear a jacket? If it's raining heavily then yes, but otherwise, just get on without one. If you're cold, just turnaround your attitude and cycle harder.

I need to work out how to stop my face sweating now...

With that jacket I think the outer fabric had a lot to do with it as it was pants at being water-repellent

Water repellency is not a property of the fabric, it's a coating that has to be renewed all the time. If your jacket's not repelling water ie the raindrops are not beading off but soaking in, then you need to use Nikwax TX direct or Grangers reproofing whatever it's called. Grangers is better I think. This is true for every jacket out there. You shoudl be doing it every 3-6 months depending on how dirty your jacket gets, what you do with it and how often you wash it.

Goretex XCR is the most breathable fabric if you are on top of Everest. Every fabric apart from eVent breathes better the colder and drier it is outside the jacket. So the UK with its warm dampness is the worst place for Goretex etc. eVent on the other hand works well regardless of outside conditions. The downside is that you need to reproof it more often.

just read this: "Get fitter, sweat less."

What a crock. Even at my fittest I sweat like a nun in labour.

The only option then is to cool down by opening up the zips and vents

Cool down? But I'm not hot, or even that warm. I'm comfortable, but getting steadily soggier

To dress appropriately you need a base layer for sweat wicking

So boys, keep it zipped

I will replace my old thermals and see how that works for me.

turnaround your attitude and cycle harder

If you open your jacket to vent the vapour condenses and turns to fluid, which is unable to pass through the fabric. I know it's a lot more complex than that but i can't be bothered to explain.

With Goretex and other PU membrane fabrics the water vapour has to condense on the inside of the membrane to be absorbed byt he PU and transported through the holes, so your post is incorrect. Plus, if you zip up your jacket you'll get really hot and produce far far more sweat in the first place than if you were properly vented, so it's a silly way to improve breathability...

On the subject of 'thermals' surely thermals are quite warm? I have base layers that are very thin and wick so well that you actually feel cooler than if you were completely uncovered in some conditions.

For breathable waterproof membranes to work well there needs to be quite a large difference in either temperature or humidity between inside and out. The ideal is cold and dry outside (although if it is dry outside why would you need one?). So actually waterproofs for riding in Britain are a bit gash as our rain often occurs when it ain't all that cold so you don't build up the required differential until you are very hot and sweaty. Plus having a bag on your back removes a large portion of the breathable area and the rest of the coat probably hangs loose around the front where to have full benefit it needs to be a snug fit.

Edit - lots of this appears to have been said while I made a cup of tea before pressing post. Hey ho!

The outcome of all of this is to wear softshell stuff unless it is absolutely hacking down! I use one of the old gore phantoms and wear it 9 months of the year. THE best investment I have made in biking kit of equipment bar none.

Shack what you say is perfectly true apart from eVent fabric. eVent is different in that it has actual tiny holes in it that let air through. You can feel it a bit when in wind actually. Which is why eVent is so good for the UK - shame that Goretex have everyone's attention tho.

+1 for wearing non waterproof, but softshell I find way way too warm unless it's about -5. North Face Apex is lovely stuff but still kind of warm.

Oh and saying ride faster to keep warm is stupid. What about when you get a puncture, or a mechanical, or when you get tired.. bit stupid really.

If I know if isn't going to rain a lot I do wear a windproof rather than waterproof. It is excellent. You can see at the end of the ride how much sweat is produced because it is damp to look it even with no rain in the air at all.

Personally I have more or less given up on "breathable" waterproofs. In my experience they are neither waterproof for very long or breathable enough for cycling. I only use them if its light rain. when its tipping down I use non breathable kit that is actually waterproof and allow a lot of venting / air circulation to prevent sweat build up.

Works for me.

I've never had one leak. They are a good tool to make me feel comfortable when it's really pissing down and I don't want cold water running through my clothes, but I dno't wear one often.

My eVent is pretty light and packable so most of the time I just keep it in my pack, and wear a windproof/soft shell the rest of the time.
It doesn't properly rain [i]that[/i] often and as much as I rate eVent a non-waterproof fabric will always be more comfortable.

Having tried everything from eVent (Rab top-end) to your cheap-and-cheerful fabric jacket I couldn't find a combination of waterproof and baselayers that I got on with. Just found myself sweating too much to make the whole exercise pointless.

Now I wear a combination of Rapha softshell (the lightweight one) and baselayers / jerseys. Far more breathable than anything else, is water 'repellent' but most importantly keeps me warm and comfortable. It is also very, very quick drying. I'm actually upgrading to a stowaway jacket as I'd use it more if it packed down smaller (I'm selling the Softshell if you'd be interested 😉 ).

With Goretex and other PU membrane fabrics the water vapour has to condense on the inside of the membrane to be absorbed byt he PU and transported through the holes, so your post is incorrect. Plus, if you zip up your jacket you'll get really hot and produce far far more sweat in the first place than if you were properly vented, so it's a silly way to improve breathability...

[b]molgrips[/b] – I stand corrected by your superior knowledge of the universe and everything.

I did say someone would be along with a Google-n-Paste to explain 😉

Get fitter, sweat less.

Not true. I sweat way more now I'm fit than I ever did before.

Going back to the original question - various people have said it, but nothing waterproof lets liquid through, only water vapour. So once you sweat enough for it to become liquid, you're buggered. Anyone who says that their jacket breathes perfectly either just naturally doesn't sweat much, or doesn't exercise very hard. Breathable waterproofs are fantastic for walking and that level of exercise (slow cycling is fine), but once you start putting in effort, you want something non-waterproof.

One thing worth trying is Buffalo stuff - it is designed based on the fact that breathable waterproofs don't work, and is designed to keep you warm even though you're wet, and to dry very quickly. Pretty expensive, but not that expensive compared with other fancy biking jackets. They do a lightweight one which might be okay for summer (the normal weight stuff is very very warm - for winter mountaineering mainly).
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/ls6.htm

Joe

I have an Event jacket & its only marginally more breathable than the cheapo Altura nevis I also use. I prefer the nevis as it has a mesh liner that works well with just a short sleeved base layer. The event is always damp inside during use.

i started cycling again last summer after a break of a couple of years and started off on a serious weight loss programme. if you doubt the breathability of your clothing try this, which has the added benefit of being a great way of losing weight. Take a bin liner and cut a hole in the middle of the bottom and in the two bottom corners, put it over your head and seal the holes where your body sticks out with tape or a scarf. go for an hour long ride and then remove the bag - i promise you will be amazed at how wet the inside of the bag is.

a couple of words of warning; wear a decent weight top underneath the bag to absorb the sweat and do not over heat. otherwise - enjoy!!

I've always been disappointed w/Gore-tex too, I have found light windstopper much better, I have a puma windstopper running top with non-windproof back, way better.

IMO no point in goretex unless it's going to rain, and windstopper copes with showers.

I've found pertex to be dreadful also.

[i]Get fitter, sweat less.[/i]
utter, utter sh1te even by NTW standards.

I've never found a good waterproof that is breathable to any decent level, so I just don't bother any more. Windproofs are fine for me.

sofatester - I did not google'n'paste - I actually know this stuff 🙂

So once you sweat enough for it to become liquid, you're buggered.

Kind of, but that's where wicking base layers help. They'll suck up the liquid and give it more surface area to evaporate.

Taki - eVent is much more breathable in terms of water transport than the cheap stuff.. but may feel that much better when you're wearing it cycling. Fact remains if you want to keep out rainwater then eVent is your best bet. Waterproof jackets always get damp on the inside because that's where the water vapour condenses.. not necessarily a problem. I suggest all those who think their waterproof is not breathable try getting hold of an old skool non breathable one and wearing that. Big difference 🙂

I've used buffalo but they are insanely warm, so much so that I cant' wear it biking.

IMO no point in goretex unless it's going to rain

Isn't that what we are talking about? Who wears goretex as normal clothes when it's dry? If you are, and you are complainign abotu sweat, then take the bloody thign off 🙂

I've used buffalo but they are insanely warm, so much so that I cant' wear it biking.

Was it the biking specific lightweight one, or the normal climbing type? I'd love to get one to try, but for £100 they are a bit much to buy on a whim.

Joe

Either. Very warm things they are. And expensive too I feel.

+1 for buffalos

I use the standard 'mountain shirt' version for winter riding, but admittedly it doesn't rain much in minus degrees. Even when the weather is slightly warmer, there's enough venting to make it ok. In other seasons I mainly stick with just a windproof over a jersey, it's enough to keep the chill off. I'm definitely more of a warm-sponge than boil-in-the-bag. IMO it's far better to be wet and comfortable than wet and overheated.

I do occasionally use waterproof lowers though, for comfort's sake.

For most winter riding I find a gillet over a thick woolly jumper over a merino base layer breathes nicely and is thick enough to stop the wind. It can also handle light rain. It was good enough for most of the 24hrs in the 09 Puffer.

When the rain gets heavier then it's time for a breathable top.

IMO it's far better to be wet and comfortable than wet and overheated

The weird thing is I notice I am uncomfortable/damp from sweat before I feel like I'm over-heating. On a ride at the weekend - on a long steep draggy grass climb - I stopped to put my jacket ON because I was cold. I already had a base layer and a cycling jersey on. I was still sweating of course. I used to get hot, sweat, then get clammy. Recently I seem to be foregoing the "get hot" bit. Maybe coincidence, but I tend to sweat a lot in air-conditioned rooms too, whether I'm hot or not.

For the record I am only talking about waterproofs for when it's raining a lot.

Personally, in heavy rain I find myself damp from my own sweat and warm, which I find preferable to being soaked from rain and cold. When the rain is heavy enough to soak through a windproof and fleece and I come into contact with rain it get cold and nasty.

Tortoise - you may be one of those people who over-sweat and this might be chilling you more than you need...

throw a bit of talc down my chest pre-ride, eh?

I have the cycling specific Buffalo - it's far too warm for me.

I've never found a waterproof/breathable jacket that actually works.

Don't cycle in the rain!

If you think the breathability of Event or Gore-Tex is bad you should try one of the cheaper Hi-Viz bright yellow jackets. I bought an Altura Nightvision a good few years ago and it was pure boil in the bag. It had pitzips and breathable pockets but I still had to really control my effort to prevent swimming in it. I eventually figured out what effort I could make it work at for the hour long commute but it was always best to carry it in the bag - and it was a heavy b*&^&*.
I also had Fox rain jacket that a was see through plastic shell and it was really dreadfull - purely for the DH crowd.

My newer Gore jacket is much better - not brilliant but much better. Don't expect miracles - it's a sweaty sport we do and a certain amount wet inside has to be expected. But at last it's wet and warm when it's cold out.

On a side note - I was at Glentress in the summer and it was raining. I could not believe all the people riding out of the car park with jackets and even trousers on... it was so stupid when it was warm out and all you needed was a long sleeve top and maybe a windproof in the bag.

We mountain bikers seem to be obsessed with "kit", and hence the answer to all the conditions we ride in is to throw more "kit" at them. The less you need to wear the better in my opinion. It's a 30min ride uphill to the forest where I usually ride which is a great warm-up even in the rain, it's also a horrible 10min freeze down on the way back home. I tend to ride-out without a jacket and pack a windproof/waterproof for the way home (in the winter I also pack an extra warm layer and a dry hat). Common sense.

If conditions are varible, showers likely and the temperature cool I wear softshell jackets (not 'windproof' shells a la montane). I have an old howies cross and an arcteryx epsilon. They shrug 90% of the worst off, keep the wind chill out and are by far the most breathible kind of shell I've ever used.

If its too hot for that I just wear a baselayer and maybe a gilet. If you get wet, so be it, thats life. Wearing a waterproof will just make me utterly miserable. If you keep moving you feel fine, if you have to stop I usually carry a montane windproof which packs down to the size of a desert apple and will keep you warm enough.

Its only if its very cold and constant stair-rod rain that'll get me into a 'waterproof' if I'm out biking. For me, in these conditions, eVent is the best of a bad bunch, due to the fact some sweat can wick into my baselayer and evaporate as vapour, rsather than having to coat the inside of the jacket before it can transport through. Heavy rain reduces that process to a crawl mind, made worse if the DWR is a bit worse for wear.

Out walking mind, and my Rab eVent is the comfiest thing ever, becuase you rarely get hot enough to cook like you do on the bike, and you can generally cool/dry off at the top of the hill in the wind looking at the view 🙂

On a side note - I was at Glentress in the summer and it was raining. I could not believe all the people riding out of the car park with jackets and even trousers on... it was so stupid when it was warm out and all you needed was a long sleeve top and maybe a windproof in the bag.

Same at the Welsh trail centres. It's always rather amusing when you meet the riders that left before you, stripping down half way up the first climb, whist dripping all over there 100-140mm [i]allmountainfreeridelighttrailbikes[/i]. Anyone would think they where riding arcoss the artic 😆

We mountain bikers seem to be obsessed with "kit",

Some of us do. That's also true of non-mountain bikers too 🙂

On the Buffalo theme, I've got a (very) old Polaris MTB-specific top which works on the same principle, but is thinner, with a 100 weight fleece inner. It works a treat. Fantastically breathable, keeps me fairly dry and very warm with just a baselayer in the coldest conditions. Wish they still made them.

FFS how on earth do you expect a waterproof jacket to allow your sweat to evaporate ? Imagine for just one minute you are on a stationary exercise bike, you are becoming too warm and decide to remove your top to allow more cooling, yet still, even with bare skin and a cooling breeze from a fan or natural ventilation, beads of sweat will form and before long you will be covered in perspiration. If your skin cannot cool itself by the evaporation of moisture from the surface of the skin on its own how do you expect a waterproof breathable jacket to help ? Perhaps it is blessed with some magic snake oil !! Yes, some waterproofs are better than others and as the earlier contributor has pointed out they are a lot better than the non breathable ones, but to expect a jacket to perform better than your own skin i don`t really think is possible. Apologies for the semi rant but some people DO believe what the marketing departments tell them is the truth !!

Micky - read my posts about the wicking. Plus when it's miserable out it's often cold. If you are as you say on a turbo and have enough wind blowing at you you won't get sweaty.. that's how it works.

I'm afraid, much as you appear to enjoy being cynical, that breathable fabrics are real and proven to allow water vapour through.

Whether or not this is ideal for your body and your riding type is another question, but you can increase efficacy by wearing the right stuff underneath.

I don't think anyone's under the illusion that wearing goretex will make you sweat free (we aren't that stupid) or somehow less sweaty than if you were wearing nothing; and what's more, the marketing doesn't tell us that either.

The only garments that actually keep me feeling dry have pertex outers e.g. shells or Buffalo/montane. Because they are hydrophilic, they suck sweat out, spread and evaporate it. Light rain is evaporated too. They yield when the rain gets heavy though - time to put the Goretex on.

Other windproof and all waterproof garments* have a more substantial barrier which means if you sweat, you will get damp to some extent. Event and Gore P are currently the best waterproofs ATM.

*Paramo is very different and very breathable, but it's heavy

Tip: wear thin thermal layers and after you've warmed up on the initial climb, take a layer off. This will help reduce dampness loads.

eVent is better than goretex, especially for UK conditions - as outlined above, cos it's made differently. It's more like Paramo.

Also, paramo looks like a shellsuit or a cheap ski jacket from 1985.

For me, spending money on a waterproof jacket is pointless, as even the very best will let in some water at the neck and bottom when I'm riding, and none of them can get rid of water vapour quick enough, so I end up a sweaty mess anyway. Besides I'd be mighty jacked off if I ripped a 150 quid jacket when falling off my bike.

Edit: also I'm not a roady gaylord so getting wet and muddy is fun.

molgrips i am becoming bored with this, despite a lot of people stating that they dont reckon much to so called breathable fabrics of whatever make through personal experience, its your dogged insistance that they do breathe and we all are either not wearing the correct undies, not zipping it up and down enough, at the wrong times, and they are scientifically proven garments blah blah.... Go ouside on the windiest day you can find, set up your turbo trainer and come back and tell me you did not have a bit of sweat on you. Thats how it works in the real world. I am not saying that the fabrics don`t work period, but that in a cyclists case the amount of heat produced cannot possibly be lost through evaporation through 2 or more layers however wicking they might be, and therefore the wearer becomes wet and sweaty on the inside ergo the garment is not breathable enough. It does work for walkers who produce far less heat as the exercise they are performing is less intense. Call me Mr.Cynical all you like, but like myself, it appears others are not very impressed by their breathable jackets either ? The marketing will tell you that jacket XYZ will keep you dry, what it wont say is you will be piss wet through on the inside, which was the reason for the OP. The simple fact is that despite the makers claims of breathability all manner of cyclists have found these claims somewhat to the contrary, and some folk have paid a handsome amount of money to find this out !!

"The simple fact is that despite the makers claims of breathability all manner of cyclists have found these claims somewhat to the contrary,"

No, the simple fact is that you're assuming that everyone else has found the same as you, which isn't the case. Molgrips is hardly the only person out there who's happy with their waterproofs, you're just choosing to present your opinion as some unavoidable truth.

I get a little damp inside my altura attack jacket, but less so than I do inside a less breathable jacket, which is the entire point- and it keeps the rain out. That's what it's supposed to do, that's what it does.

The answer for this climate is Harris Tweed close woven. Real men wear it unlined 🙂