Just got a new bike with deore xt brakes , the latest one's. In terms of performance (stopping power & feel) how do these compare with hope tech evos M4s? Can't try them to compare, as they're new in box, and will prefer to sell them as new if they aren't a massive improvement.
Unless i'm thinking of something different the Hopes will probably have a bit more power as they're 4 pot rather than 2 on the XTs.
Saying that I've ran XT brakes and still using the original ones on the rear and they work great.
Never had an issue with Shimano brakes, they just don't look as bling as the Hopes i guess.
I like Hope brakes and have the techX2 on a bike, but to be honest, with the XT's on my Rocket I never felt under-braked during a week in the Alps and had no issues what so ever-no fade, no squeal and the pads were only half worn at the end.
I had 203f/180r rotors-standard not icetech- and finned pads
Considering the price difference......
Nothing wrong with Shimano but Hope are better
Hope brakes are superb and will last and last. Beautifully made like all Hope products I have purchased.
its subjective really, Hope look nice and can be rebuilt and have good support, whereas XT's are common but, are also the benchmark brake. Never ever had a problem with my XT's from XC on the south downs to flat out WC DH courses in the alps and wouldn't replace them for anything else. Utterly perfect in my opinion
Overall power won't be very different at all.
They way they deliver the power will be. Hopes have a lot more modulation, whereas the Shimano's, well, don't.
Hope are better but it's marginal and given how much you'll get selling both sets I would sell the Hope and keep the XT.
FWIW, the performance increase is no where near the increase in price.
If you sell the hopes now, by the time the shimanos die, you'll probably be able to replace them 2 or 3 times over for the money you get for the hopes.
Only time I've got hopes is when I'm either upgrading from something truly awful or I haven't got any brakes at all. If I have XT, they just stay where they are.
They way they deliver the power will be. Hopes have a lot more modulation, whereas the Shimano's, well, don't.
^this
I prefer the hope E4's but there is no way on earth that they are worth the extra ££££££££££ you'd need to change.
Not this shit again.
In a nutshell, Hope are endlessly rebuildable which is good, because they need to be. Shimano are extremely reliable but spares aren't really available so you just replace the lever or caliper if it goes wrong.
Both are better than most people require and going from one to the other will feel strange. Hope suit people who like to tinker with and bleed their brakes endlessly. Shimano suit people who like their stuff to work.
shimano zee for me
jimjam +1
My last set of hopes lasted about 10 years with zero maintenance. Utterly reliable apart from the threaded brake lever bolt after about 8 years. Needless to say they sent me a new lever for free. Probably bled them every few years? Current m4s are just over 2 years old and have been bled once, mainly because I changed to some blue braided hoses. If I already had XT then I wouldn't bother, I wouldn't say they are expensive, rather that shimano have just become so cheap! For me the customer service has bought my loyalty. Compared to my slxs on another bike they are more power and the modulation is far better.
If you are bleeding them every 5 minutes I would suggest your doing something very wrong.
seeing as you can buy a complete set of XT brakes for about £90, you won't be getting much for a second-hand set. (they are, even if you haven't ridden them)
use them until they die and in a couple of years time decide the expense of hope really isnt worth it.
Jimjam has it.
Not this shit again.In a nutshell, Hope are endlessly rebuildable which is good, because they need to be. Shimano are extremely reliable but spares aren't really available so you just replace the lever or caliper if it goes wrong.
Both are better than most people require and going from one to the other will feel strange. Hope suit people who like to tinker with and bleed their brakes endlessly. Shimano suit people who like their stuff to work.
What a load of rubbish. Hope's don't need to be rebuilt continuously, they are just as reliable as Shimano's. Follow the instructions, bleed them properly and look after them (like you should with any brakes) and they won't go wrong.
As Hob Nob mentioned above, there is a clear difference between the modulation. I've tried shimano brakes, couldn't fault the stopping power, but didn't like the lack of modulation.
Yep. Hobnob's comments are far more relevant than jimjams.
I'd have the Hopes personally, out of those 2 (*). Not because of power, the XTs have shitloads, but for delivery. Trouble is, this is a personal thing, there's no such thing as right feel. The value and performance of the current Shimanos is ludicrous.
When you think about it... The depreciation you'll get taking the XTs for a ride is way less than the cost of screwing it up and selling the wrong brakes. No substitute for trying it here IMO.
(* I'd sell both and get a set of Formula The Ones, personally, but that is not the question)
Sir HCWhat a load of rubbish.
wrecker - MemberYep. Hobnob's comments are far more relevant than jimjams.
My sample size is based on hundreds of bikes sold, hundreds of after market brakes sold and warranty info based on thousands of brakes sold. But carry on recommending things based on what you and your mates have, and shit you read on forums.
Also worth noting
Shimano suit people who like their stuff to work.
That's not necessarily the case.
There are plenty of stories regarding Shimano & inconsistent lever feel, despite no apparent issue (no leaks/seal issue/bleed needs).
FWIW, i'm not really 'pro' any brake - I have some E4's and some XTR's. I still think some sort of hybrid M9000 race lever (without the nasty servo wave)/Saint caliper would be one of the best options out there for me 🙂
I'd imagine there's a shitload more shimano brakes out there, so more likely to be more issues tbh, goes without saying.
Never really got the modulation issue tbh, maybe if your a brake dragger it's an issue, I do try not to do that, but sometimes when I'm tired I drag em a bit. Not an issue for me though.
Depends on your riding style. If you're aggressive and ham fisted and skid to scrub speed rather than controlled deceleration then use the XT's as you don't need any modulation. If you're a smoother rider you will appreciate the feel you get from the Hope brakes.
Shimano's brakes are throw away parts. They always seem to get to a couple of years old and need new seals which means a new calliper/lever. They are so cheap and do almost as good a job as the Hopes for 50% of the price.
My sample size is based on hundreds of bikes sold, hundreds of after market brakes sold and warranty info based on thousands of brakes sold. But carry on recommending things based on what you and your mates have, and shit you read on forums.
I couldn't care less how many you have sold. The people on here are users and their/our opinions are at least as relevant as your supposed sales point of view. This isn't a "sales assistant only" thread.
Modulation isn't about brake dragging it's about nice progressive brakes. Being able to slow down without locking a wheel. The hopes make it easier so you don't lock up and leave brake bumps into corners all the time.
wreckerI couldn't care less how many you have sold. The people on here are users and their/our opinions are at least as relevant as your supposed sales point of view.
No actually it's not. That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
Why, because you sell them? The Op wasn't asking for sales advice, he wanted to know what they are like to live with and you can only know that from using them, not exchanging boxes for money.
wreckerWhy, because you sell them? The Op wasn't asking for sales advice, he wanted to know what they are like to live with and you can only know that from using them, not exchanging boxes for money.
Ah, right. So that's what people in bike shops do is it? Exchange boxes for money?
Just to bring you up to speed, there are often people on the end of that money. They have faces and holes in their faces that they speak out of. If their brakes continually fail or need maintenance these walking cash holes return to the place they bought the item from and complain.
In the scenario where these (lets call them customers) buy a bike they'll often ask about the components on that bike. Components like the brakes for instance. After a period of riding said bike they will return it to the shop for a service. This is generally an accepted point at which the person who sold the bike will engage in a dialogue with walking cash hole about the good and bad point of the bike. Walking [s]cash holes[/s], sorry customers generally don't hold back when it comes to complaining, particularly a fairly important component like brakes.
Often, they'll return many times to the same shop to have their bike serviced or have any faults repaired, and the cynical cash stealers will get to know them (amazing I know). Over time they might get to know a lot of [s]cash holes[/s],customers a lot of bikes and a lot of components. Thereby building a knowledge base that far exceeds the average individual.
HTH
OK, so lets see the stats for your sales and returns for different brake brands then? Or is your evidence as anecdotal as the rest of ours is?
I don't buy this nobody knows shit compared with a LBS worker at all. I've met plenty of clueless bike shop workers as I'm sure you have customers.
This was a fairly informative and helpful thread until you waded in with your superior knowitall "not this again" attitude, well done you.
wreckerOK, so lets see the stats for your sales and returns for different brake brands then?
I quit that job.
wrecker
Or is your evidence as anecdotal as the rest of ours is?
No. Yours is anecdotal as it's from a small sample. That's what anecdotal is. HTH
wreckerI don't buy this nobody knows shit compared with a LBS worker at all.
Good for you. Keep believing what you believe.
"In a nutshell, Hope are endlessly rebuildable which is good, because they need to be. Shimano are extremely reliable but spares aren't really available so you just replace the lever or caliper if it goes wrong.
Both are better than most people require and going from one to the other will feel strange. Hope suit people who like to tinker with and bleed their brakes endlessly. Shimano suit people who like their stuff to work."
BAHAHAHHAAHAA - in the world where i actually ride my bike several sets of shimano XTs have proven to be extremely unreliable and succeptable to destruction through heat with sintered pads Or their resin pads lasting approximatly 12 second. The deores actually faired better than their XTS
My hopes all 2 pots - all bought used except my race X2s on my race bike on the other hand have not needed rebuilt ever and working brilliantly - cope with using sintered pads on long descents and thus get excellent pad life.
But shimano are very cheap new and easy for a salesman to sell on pricealone.
Did you read the original post? 🙂The Op wasn't asking for sales advice
No. Yours is anecdotal as it's from a small sample. That's what anecdotal is. HTH
I don't think you understand what anecdotal means.
trail_ratBAHAHAHHAAHAA - in the world where i actually ride my bike several sets of shimano have proven to be extremely unreliable and succeptable to destruction through heat with sintered pads Or their resin pads lasting approximatly 12 seconds
My hopes- all bought used except my race X2s on my race bike on the other hand have not needed rebuilt ever and working brilliantly - cope with using sintered pads on long descents and thus get excellent pad life.
Awwwwww mate, you sound awesome. In my world, where I actually ride my too, my brakes also work extremely well, have done for years.
wreckerI don't think you understand what anecdotal means.
Snappy comeback, that's me schooled.
From a sample size of 2 (bikes) I've not noticed a huge amount of difference, they work by stopping the bike when I want.
I'm just heading down to the cat rescue to pick up some kittens 8)
Snappy comeback, that's me schooled.
Welcome! Happy to help. Those who can, teach and all that.
im beginnign to wonder if he and bartyp are one and the same troll wrecker.....
It's funny. I had a conversation a few years ago with a brand manager of a british bike brand discussing companies using this forum for a form of stealth advertising. They would periodically create threads, essentially the same threads, and fanboys would leap to the defence of their preferred product.
I asked if it really happened (wasn't sure) and he told me he knew people and that was part of their job. Orange were the brand I most strongly suspected, he nodded and told me there was another large british company doing and couldn't say who they were. Hmmmmmmmmm
Don't question the all knowing bike shop god! He will smite thee!
The delivery may be questionable but he is right on the point about jimjam's point being anecdotal. Of course that doesn't make it invalid and if you trust him as an impartial source then the sample size tends to make it more reliable anecdotal evidence than wrecker's smaller sample but it still comes down to impartiality.
I've known many bike shop employees who are far from impartial. I've known many others who were very balanced. People, eh?
( I also worked in a bike shop so I'm right, OK 😉 )
so you work for shimano/madison then 😉
trail_rat - Memberso you work for shimano/madison then
No, I used to work for CRC.
Me? Hope on my bikes though I suspect that Shimano are nowadays a better product overall. Equally I expect it's tiny margins and that both are good and some people just like to argue.
jimjam - MemberNot this shit again.
In a nutshell, Hope are endlessly rebuildable which is good, because they need to be. Shimano are extremely reliable but spares aren't really available so you just replace the lever or caliper if it goes wrong.
Both are better than most people require and going from one to the other will feel strange. Hope suit people who like to tinker with and bleed their brakes endlessly. Shimano suit people who like their stuff to work.
Got to agree, from a much smaller pool of the 15 or so riders in our extending riding group our experience pretty much matches this.
Hope stuff looks great and works well, but I think Hope are handicapped by their need to have anything machined, it makes their stuff bulky and expensive.
Oddly despite what other people have said my Tech V2 were like an on/off switch - one that operated an anchor because they were massively powerful, more powerful than any other brake I've ever used - but of course we're not talking about V2, my Non-Evo M4s were the same but less so. Lovely, lovely brakes.
My Shimano Deore brakes are sublime though, I only bought them as a 'get me by' when I needed something quick and cheap, that was more than 2 years ago now, I've never felt the need to change them - Alpine descents, yeah no problem do a load of them, get home, keep riding.
It really depends what you're after, but there's no way in hell, that I'd put either in the spares box to spend money on the other, they're both good, if I was starting from nothing I'd buy Shimano because I can get a set of Deores, SLX or XT for far, far less than Hope and frankly I wouldn't care which, they're all good.
As for ease of use / ownership, no maker can hold a candle to Shimano, not one, they're very reliable apart from a tendency to shit caliper seals now and again - if that happens with most manufacturers you buy a seal kit for £20, spend an hour getting horrible DOT brake fluid everywhere, rebuild them, bleed them, bleed them again and it'll probably work - with Shimano, you just buy a new caliper - they cost about £7 more than the pads they come with, you unscrew the old one, screw in the new one - ride.
I'm a Shimano fanboy and have been since I bought some original Saint brakes. Most of mine have been pretty reliable - the only ones that I've had issues with were a set of XT's. My Deore's are ace especially when you consider they cost £65 for the piar. The Zee brakes that replaced the XT's have proved to be super reliable and ver powerful.
I quite like sharp brakes, but I used to really like Hayes brakes when a lot of people thought they were wooden and grabby.
I'm pretty 'meh' about Hope these days - I gave up on their brakes after the Mini lever. All the brakes that I used Mini, M4, Mono series were bad. Really bad. It was at this tme that I went Shimano.
These days they may well be very good brakes but are they worth the extra compared to Shimano? It's a big fat no from me. I don't like the CNC look or clump levers either.
For the record, I'm not defending any product. Both hope and shimano make great brakes. I do take exception to an individual claiming to be the definitive authority based on working in a bike shop and suggesting that others opinions are not valid based on their own experiences.
Only on STW can someone pop up with huge real world experience and get dismissed as a troll. It doesn't mean "someone who has a different opinion to me".
Hope rebuild-ability is a myth; you'd just sell 'em on if they broke and buy some Shimano's instead.
Well, you might 😉
Mind you, I've only replaced a seal once.
😀 I broke a seal on my XTs once; jsut sent them back to the shop and they gave me a new brake!
My Hopes are about 8 years old now. Suspect that might be outside of warranty 🙂
Touche!
Still waiting for one of our sets of hopes to fail.
Had one shimano XT shit its seals, it was ~10 years old, and dual control, so not a massive concern. Replaced it with more XT, so I have a pile of spare parts now.
Fours sets of Shimano brakes in this household. The XT,SLX and Deore are all faultless. All the power you could ever need. They've been all over the UK and Europe and all they've had is bleeding.
Also I have Saint's on my DH bike which have never worked properly. Horrible lever feel, pulling to the bars then pumping up. Inconsistent power. I've bled them over and over again. The ice tech rotors melted. Not what you want on the bike you use to throw yourself down mountains.
They've had me considering Hope's for the first time since it was Hope vs. Hayes. But they're so big and chunky and ugly and expensive, I can't get turned on about them.
(mr boring arrives at the thread)
i really want to like Hope brakes, but i don't want umpteen dials on my brake levers, i don't want titanium bolts, i don't want 4 pots*, i don't want vented or floating discs. They're all pointless trinkets.
i understand that the brakes i want would cost 95% of the brakes with all the bells and whistles, but i don't want those bells and whistles. They're annoying.
(bring back the mono-mini?)
(*it's not MOAR POWER!, it's just twice as many seals and pads and etc. 4x 16mm pistons has the same area as 2x 23mm pistons. Just use 23mm pistons FFS)
OP - the XTs should work almost faultlessly. If they don't, or if you just fancy burning money*. get some Hopes.
*I'll have the XTs off you if the price is right.
Zee or Saints will give the feel/modulation of Hope due to the 4-pot design and two of those pistons biting the rotor momentarily before the other two come in.
Yes Deore, SLX and XT can be a bit abrupt but don't pull so hard on the lever!...i only have Saint because they came up cheap in a sale but I can see the difference in feel now even if outright power seems similar.
That said if I was buying new my go to brake is XT, you can get a pair for less than £100 and they'll stop you in the Alps all day long....if anything in the caliper fails buy a new caliper, they're cheap enough on CRC!...likewise if anything in the lever fails replace that, it's even cheaper.
I've never had to bleed Shimano brakes, they work from the box, fit and forget....Avid on the other hand would require bleeding again after a bloody pad change!
[quote="ahwiles"]but i don't want umpteen dials on my brake levers,TBH, I've got a pile of assorted grub screws, and I'm sorely tempted to ditch the dials on my hopes and just bang some grub screws in, I mean, once they are set up, you shouldn't really need to adjust them.
I've had a pair of original Hope Minis on 4 different bikes since 2002. I've stripped and rebuilt them twice in that time and replaced the original from rotor with a bigger one so I could fit some post mount Foxes. All parts for the 2x rebuilds were still available from Hope. If you upgrade your kit regularly then go Shimano, if you want a product that lasts then go Hope.
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My memories of my Hope Minis* mostly involve complaining about how much time I had to spend bleeding them and faffing about.
I don't really have any memories relating to the SLXs I've had for the last 5 years, that's a good thing.
*this info is based on very old Hope brakes, so is possibly irrelevant. Though, possibly not, as I've never had the slightest inclination to swap back.
*this info is based on very old Hope brakes, so is possibly irrelevant. Though, possibly not, as I've never had the slightest inclination to swap back.
It was more a comment on how spares and telephone support are still available for an old product. If Hope are still willing to entertain an old spendthrift git like me then I think the extra ££ initial price you pay for Hope stuff is worth it.
Shimanos. Cheaper, more reliable, easier to set up.
If we're throwing 'dotes around I've heard quite a few horror stories of Hope brakes cooking and fading really badly on long alpine descents. Anyone care to comment?
And +1 for Formula The Ones despite that not being the question asked. 🙂
so its fifty fifty between shimano and hope
one person likes formulas
and everyone hates avids
I'd love a set of Hope but they were just too expensive at the time.
As for Shimano I'd go either Deore or Zee - the latter being ultra powerful, but with way more modulation than SLX/XT.
Northwind - Member
Only on STW can someone pop up with huge real world experience and get dismissed as a troll. It doesn't mean "someone who has a different opinion to me".
+ one millionty.
I know JimJam in a biblical sense. A great shag and very knowledgeable when it comes to bikes. Doesn't make his opinion the only one but hearing his words isn't the same as reading them. I guess that goes for most on here though.
I too somehow manage to get called a troll on here quite a bit (I [b]don't [/b]know my bike stuff) but seem to have a different opinion from the type of people who like to call others a troll. I even got called an idiot last time i was on. And idiot troll. Not that i'm bothered as i'm actually a non-trolling genius 😀
Anyway i only logged in to say i like avid brakes (not trolling btw - i do like them) but i've not tried shimano or hope. Hated my The Ones - again not trolling, just didn't like the stupid amount of power they had.
p.s. 'walking cash holes' 😆
Had new Deore, SLX, XT, XTR. Hope Tech3 X2 and E4. SRAM guide RS.
Best feeling and performig brake so far?
Guides.
Most reliable?
Hope.
Most powerful from the first pull?
Shimano.
Most modulation?
SRAM.
Best servicing ease?
Hope.
Best value?
Deore.
What would I buy, if I were spending on a brand new set of brakes?
Probably Hope E4. I just know they'll be working as good in six months as they were when I bought them, and if I need to fix them its easy peasy.
I've had a few bikes over the last 5-6 years but only one set of brakes hope tech 4's ,never been rebuilt and only bleed once I like them apart from the bulky/out of place looking adjusters on the levers.
well I think you are all wrong and the best choice actually is Hayes El Camino
neither modulation, nor stopping power, nor reliability 😉
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see you in a hedge / tree 😉
Hope suit people who like to tinker with and bleed their brakes endlessly.
I haven't so much shite for a very long time.
Why do people post such drivel?
Well you are trolling.
Bled my hopes once as I moved them from one bike to another in 5 years of ownership. Never had to bleed my Shimano. Both were fine on Alpine holidays, both had sufficient modulation, both had sufficient power.
Avid are shit in comparison.
In the last 10 years or so that I've been using discs, I've had 2 sets, so will only comment on those 2 sets.
Avid Juicy's - shit in every sense
Hope Tech M4's - put them on my Enduro with braided hoses when I built it up almost 7 years ago. They look lovely and work well - they might work a tad better if I ever got round to bleeding them, but they still work fine and have never been bled in all that time. The pads are a doddle to change and by all accounts when they do need bleeding, that's easy too - some nice online tutorials available. I actually use the umpteen dials (all 2 of them on each lever) as they are useful. Whether or not they are the most powerful, I don't care - they work for me and I like them. I pay more for them for the same reason I don't mind paying more for Hope lights
I see your Hayes el camino and raise you a Hayes so1e.
Mmm one piston so you have to keep manually adjusting one as the pads wear? Check.
Auto bleed feature where the little rubber bung falls out of the godawful looking lever and ejects your fluid all over the front wheel? Check.
What were they thinking???
I was a huge fan of shimano deore brakes, one of the best value items i have bought. However had to replace my rear and bought the latest version. The hose needed to be cut and therefore bled. This was not posible without buying a specisl shimano bleed kit and faffing around with syringes, sure, you dont need to do this often but why change a brillant simple design to incorporate a non-beneficial complicated bleeding system. Not happy.
If we're slagging Hayes am I right when I say that people often compared HFX9's to cantis only using wood instead of rubber blocks?
Still loving my E4. The original one that is, thirteen years old now? Lightning rotor is still going as well 😀
The shimano bleed is pretty easy with just one syringe and the funnel, the latter being just another way of topping the reservoir up
JimJams origional comment is very succinct and absolutely spot on IME
As is this comment:
Hope stuff looks great and works well, but I think Hope are handicapped by their need to have anything machined, it makes their stuff bulky and expensive.
I'd also add that it makes them look rather dated these days too, but that's just an opinion, to which I'm entitled.... 🙂
I've come to a conclusion about MTB brakes in general and it goes something like this:
DoT fluid is generally speaking used in average to crap brakes, mineral oil in the good ones. I've just got this feeling that DoT fluid isn't particularly suited to bicycle applications for some reason. Don't ask me why this should be.
Hope are OK, but when Deores are so bloody good and so bloody cheap I can't see how they justify their price.
Finally though, as long as you steer clear of Avid/SRAM brakes you'll probably be OK.
The hose needed to be cut and therefore bled. This was not posible without buying a specisl shimano bleed kit and faffing around with syringes, sure, you dont need to do this often but why change a brillant simple design to incorporate a non-beneficial complicated bleeding system. Not happy.
I've cut literally dozens of Shimano hoses. At one point I built a run of 12 ambulance bikes for Heathrow Airport (in use now) all of which had Deore hydraulics. 24 hoses cut, not one needed bleeding. I must have done somerhing in the region of 75-100 Shimano hoses in total, and I can only remember having to bleed one after the hose sprang out of my hand and flicked some fluid out. If you're careful and methodical it's quick and easy.
Syringes? Cheap and clean. A Shimano bleed kit is one syringe and a length of tubing. A few pence. (Again, see Avid/SRAM if you want a faff...) bleeding Shimano is quick and easy, 2 minutes a brake tops, and the fluid doesn't peel the paint off the levers over time. Same for Magura and Tektro.
All Shiamno brakes bleed the same, push new fluid through from the calliper. They've never changed that one little bit! You can either take the cap off the master cylinder and suck excess out with another syringe or screw the special cup into the bleed port on newer brakes in the cap to catch it. (Part number SM-DISC, rrp £3.99)