[Closed] Boutique/bespoke frames, if you were to, what and why?

What tang posted a bit higher up probably but a bit more understated.

Retrotec

I find it hard to believe any of the above give anything at all other than some weird sense of personal pride and wall pi55ing ability.

I'd buy a decent specialized/Santa Cruz / whatever and be more than happy.

Its still just a bike.

[quote=weeksy ]I find it hard to believe any of the above give anything at all other than some weird sense of personal pride and wall pi55ing ability.
I'd buy a decent specialized/Santa Cruz / whatever and be more than happy.
Its still just a bike.
Depends very much on whether you can find something off-the-peg with the geometry and "features" that you want. Even things like cable routing, bottle cage mounts, rack mounts etc all have a part to play in my decision-making process. Having said that, all my requirements are functional ones. I'm not interested in stuff like fancy paint schemes and twiddly lugs. Mind you, I also think that a watch is for finding out the time and isn't a piece of jewellery so I'm likely not the demographic many of the frame builders are chasing.

Is everything you purchase purely functional though? No concessions to aesthetics or craftsmanship or provenance?

I've been contemplating a custom made frame, as there doesn't appear to be much off the peg stuff out there that suits my needs (see my first thread on this forum about it). Having made some enquiries/done a bit of research, I'm left with the conclusion that a bespoke frame wouldn't really offer anything over something from a mainstream manufacturer, other than some mythical 'uniqueness', and would cost a hell of a lot more, with no genuine benefit. Certainly nothing that would 'justify' the cost of a bespoke frame. Indeed, given the R+D capabilities of some of the big manufacturers, and their experience in designing and building bikes, plus the extremely good manufacturing processes being used these days, a mainstream mass produced frame might even be [i]better[/i] than a bespoke one!

But that's not the point, I know. A fully custom made one-off unique frame is something special. I certainly appreciate that. It's getting exactly what you want, that seems to be the hard bit. I went to a Bespoked bike show a few years ago, and spoke to a number of frame builders. They ranged from 'I can build you anything you want, and you can have my first born too!', to 'you will get what I tell you you can have, and you will wait 6 years for it, and you will be grateful'. Bespoked is very good in this regard, it's an opportunity to learn which [i]builders[/i] suit you, regardless of their products. There's definitely a couple I'd never waste my time with. But there's also lots of really nice people doing great things with metal tubes, and it would be a pleasure to engage with them in the design and build of a bicycle.

Having seen the bike I thought I wanted become no longer available, I'm revisiting the idea of a custom made frame. Seems there's a growing choice out there. Would be nice to see some quirky/unusual bikes that people on this forum have had made.

Pat at Limit is an artist.

http://limitfabrications.co.uk

I would probably be asking 18 Bikes to make me a hardtail with Pinion gearbox and belt drive. Or maybe Olsen Bikes as they are more local but I'm not so sure about their designs

"Depends very much on whether you can find something off-the-peg with the geometry and "features" that you want. Even things like cable routing, bottle cage mounts, rack mounts etc all have a part to play in my decision-making process. Having said that, all my requirements are functional ones. I'm not interested in stuff like fancy paint schemes and twiddly lugs. Mind you, I also think that a watch is for finding out the time and isn't a piece of jewellery so I'm likely not the demographic many of the frame builders are chasing."

Talk of 'geometry' is mostly waffle, unless you have an unusually proportioned body/particular physical issue that requires 'custom geometry'. Or you're just weird and want a really slack angled road bike or very long chainstays, or some daft gearbox+Rohloff+beltdrive nonsense or something. Any decent frame builder will advise on making something within certain limits; a lot of people 'think' they know best, but the truth is, bicycle frame design has pretty much been done, and the best geometry/angles/dimensions have been well sorted now. Things like saddle angle/layback, handlebar width, stem length, tyre choice etc has far more influence on how a bike fits and rides than 'geometry', for the vast majority of people.

So it really is down to having something a bit 'unique', and 'different'. Not a great deal more really.

Watches? If you want accurate tme on your wrist, get a £10 Casio. 😉

bicycle frame design has pretty much been done, and the best geometry/angles/dimensions have been well sorted now.

Things like saddle angle/layback, handlebar width, stem length, tyre choice etc has far more influence on how a bike fits and rides than 'geometry', for the vast majority of people.

Custom can just mean the right tubeset and be nothing to do with geometry.

If geometry was all sorted out, I'd expect to find more than one FS 29er that fit me right. I've got short legs but I'm not that much of a freak!

"eg why are MTBs still changing steadily?"

Steadily, but not radically. My current MTBs are a bit slacker and better suited to their purpose than my first one, but the design hasn't changed fundamentally.

"Custom can just mean the right tubeset and be nothing to do with geometry."

How much genuinely noticeable difference does this actually make, to the real world performance of the bicycle? If two frames from different tube sets were made to look identical, and built up with identical components, how many people would actually notice the difference?

Custom can just mean the right tubeset and be nothing to do with geometry.

Or tyre clearance....

Jay Petervary had Salsa build him a custom Ti El Mariachi with a larger frame triangle so he could fit a larger frame bag.

My Pact has a higher-than-average BB so the saddle is higher and I can fit a decent sized saddle bag.

Some folk find that standard headtubes are a bit short for fitting bar bags without having a stack of spacers.

If I was doing another hardtail, it'd be a custom titanium loosely based on my anglesetted trailfox. Compensate it for a bit less fork, add a dab of reach and get the TT down a bit lower, maybe replacable dropouts so I can do bloody stupid boost when that becomes unavoidable, tyre clearance for a 2.5 in the back, stealth routing but everything else external, and a proper BB... And make sure they know I want something that rides soft, more like my Soda than my Ragley Ti. Simple aesthetics, just a couple of triangles, and room and strength for a 170mm reverb. And that's pretty much it, nothing very clever but I don't think you can get close to what I really want off the peg.

The one bike i return to for everything for winter commuting, to bike packing to most of my off road riding, is my mk1 Salsa Fargo.

But the Fargo is a bit of a weighty beast and i think if the money was there i would something similar, a drop bar bike capable of taking up to 2.4 tyres with bottle cage mounts below down tube and on forks for mounting kit, if money was no option it would be in 931 steel just because i'd use it a lot and the raw finish would make me smile.....

Oh, and a road bike from Donhou.

Jameso is referring to a tubeset matched to the rider and end use of the bike.

I weigh 63kg. Why should I drag round a bike that can pass fatigue tests for someone almost twice my weight?

I built my son's bike. Stock answer on here for a kid's 26er is a 14" inbred. Even with a basic cheap tubeset (just one butted tube), it still came in over 1lb lighter than the inbred frame. I'm making another now for a friend's daughter that will be lighter still.

Then throw in increasing 2017 frames having stuff I just don't want - integrated headsets, boost, press fit bb etc.

Custom simply isn't just about deciding where to have the bottle cage.

Also worth noting that your custom builders And little niche companies are the guys that sorted long fork offsets, 29ers 650b+ fat bikes etc....way before the mainstream even thought about it. The custom frame world is like the primordial swamp of bikes, if it works And evolves enough then the big boys take notice and it becomes more mainstream, if not it grow some extra appendages, fails to breed and dies quietly in a corner of forgotten niche tat.

Clodhopper, I'd say MTB design has changed in the last 5-6 years enough to show how custom geometry is of value. A couple of degrees, 25mm reach or similar changes from industry averages, enough to make a difference to some. Maybe not others. I've ridden a number of bikes that had same geo but different tubes, or v-v, and felt the difference was of interest or value. Not everyone will, not everyone will value a custom bike.
Mick's point on weight also, at 75kg I could still have a safe custom frame that doesn't meet all ISO specs. I had a cool road bike with a super low BB, can't sell the design as a production spec due to ISO regs but I could get it made to a high level as a one off.

As for the op q, I'd have a fillet brazed steel custom from someone who made bikes really well in the type/style I like. So a Shand, most likely. It'd be a keeper so brazed in case I ever wanted a dinged tube replaced.

Cherubim road bike
TJD rigid 29er

Shand Stooshie - winter road bike / commuter / gravel

Always fancied a titanium hardtail, so would probably get Brant at Pact to replicate (a few minor mods) my Singular Swift in Ti (in the absence of a Singular Pegasus).

6'5" - so have thought of going custom.

Here's what I had done.

http://www.saffronframeworks.com/build/stevens-elegant-29er/

Why is difficult. Main reason is because I wanted something no one else had. Fit is another. I've short legs but long body and lie right on the cusp of medium and large in most brands. Either size for me is often a compromise in some respect. An afternoon long bike fit and lots of questioning from Matthew the builder, resulted in a bike that felt perfect front the moment I turned the pedals for the first time. Also, the frame tubes were chosen for my weight and riding style, so it still has that springy steel feel but without being too overly stiff. The top tube is also 853 to cope with the extra strain of the lefty. These things are only possible by going custom. It's like the difference between a bespoke suit and having an off the peg suit altered to fit you. Both will fit you, but only one is truly made just for you.

clubby - that's lovely. A pal just had this one made this year
http://www.saffronframeworks.com/build/dannys-classic-bi-laminate

@Clubby. Stunning bike- one day......

Ti Stooge 27.5 plus on order 10 weeks grrrrrrrrrrr!

My custom starling cost significantly less than an off the shelf Santa Cruz even after a pretty good build

"Jameso is referring to a tubeset matched to the rider and end use of the bike.

I weigh 63kg. Why should I drag round a bike that can pass fatigue tests for someone almost twice my weight?"

I totally get stuff like that. Of course it's nice to have something better 'matched' to you. I'm just open minded about the 'benefits' v the extra expense; there's a point where it surely isn't justifiable beyond:

"Main reason is because I wanted something no one else had."

Which is also absolutely fine.

"I built my son's bike. Stock answer on here for a kid's 26er is a 14" inbred. Even with a basic cheap tubeset (just one butted tube), it still came in over 1lb lighter than the inbred frame. I'm making another now for a friend's daughter that will be lighter still."

TBH, you could build it from scaffolding poles and it would be lighter than an On-One. 😆

"Custom simply isn't just about deciding where to have the bottle cage."

Of course. I'm quite glad the bike I had been contemplating buying, is no longer available (at the heavily discounted price). TBH it wasn't really 'right' for me; it's a cyclocross bike with rack mounts, and what I actually want is something a bit different to that. Hence why a custom built frame may be my best option.

But if a mainstream manufacturer comes up with something that closely matches my requirements, I'll buy that instead. I simply don't 'need' something no-ne else has'.

Custom Nicolai ION Geometron...............again.

I'd like to phone Nicolai up and order a custom geometron with a 68 degree head angle, 430mm of reach and and 1160mm wheelbase, just to see what they'd say.

But a nice, custom steel frame can still be had for sensible money, comparable to the frame only prices of many of the the big brands.

We're all a little vain.
A custom frame must be a lovely thing to spec and own.
If I was ever to spend a couple of grand on a nice, light road bike, I'd go for it like a flash.
A custom, steel, built for you classic or a compromised otp bike for the same cash?

Daft not to.

i did. 12 years ago. looking a bit more battered now.

Still my main mtb and a great ride - even with the dated geometry. Although I'm probably going to go full sus 29er in the next few months but there's no way I am selling the Mather. It will be able to do stuff that the new bike probably won't. At the time it was an itch i needed to scratch and i've had some great rides and adventures on this bike.

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/127/389551860_a83b3c7cb9_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/127/389551860_a83b3c7cb9_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/Aqyco ]fine bike[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/evilgoat/ ]Evil Goat[/url], on Flickr

TBH it wasn't really 'right' for me; it's a cyclocross bike with rack mounts, and what I actually want is something a bit different to that.

That is actually a really good example. A lot of the mainstream "gravel" frames are being sold as jack of all trades (CX, commute, tour etc), when given the choice I'd decide which job you really want it to excel at. Rack and panniers really needs a longer back end for heel clearance, and a fairly sturdy build or the load just wags the bike in a rather alarming way.

My wife's dedicated CX frame is the exact opposite - super short rear end, fairly burly chainstays and downtube, but very slender elsewhere (skinny 12mm stays plus skinny seat tube, top tube and seatpost). For bumpy CX racing this works really well, but attaching a rack would be a wobbly disaster.

"That is actually a really good example. A lot of the mainstream "gravel" frames are being sold as jack of all trades (CX, commute, tour etc), when given the choice I'd decide which job you really want it to excel at. "

The 'gravel' bike should be something that is ideal, but fashion dominates, and they are made to be a bit 'racy', whilst sacrificing usefulness. Indeed, image/fashion are often quite detrimental to bike design, imo, as the vast majority of cyclists won't be racing, so why not leave it for those who do, to have to get custom frames made? I remember when all mtbs had rack and mudguard mounts, and you could race on the same machine people went up Kilimanjaro on. I accept 'because optimisation', but the genuinely useful type of bike has become a rare thing.

but the genuinely useful type of bike has become a rare thing.

I see the opposite,there are some really good options for more 'do it all' bikes from main brands and frame builders now.
It just depends how much the rider wants to adapt to the different terrain.I also think that the 29er and monstercross stuff has added to what more people have in mind ,as they look for the perfect (for them ) bike.

Fat Chance Yo Eddy 2.1 29er. (now I spotted they exist again... 🙂 )

So then, what can I sell...

image/fashion are often quite detrimental to bike design,

Having looked at the Fat Chance site, i don't think it really offers you a [i]custom[/i] frame build, rather it offers some [i]customization[/i] of a Fat Chance frame.

The concept has never done anything for me.

My mate has a custom Shand and besides the admittedly superb custom paint job it's almost exactly the same as my Salsa 🙂

Having looked at the Fat Chance site, i don't think it really offers you a custom frame build, rather it offers some customization of a Fat Chance frame.

I know. Still, it's important to have the right number of bottle bosses and a proper paintjob.

Anyway, it's a Yo Eddy.... so it's gotta be good 😀

"I see the opposite,there are some really good options for more 'do it all' bikes from main brands and frame builders now."

I'm not seeing anything in the shops that seems to fit all my requirements. A few 'CX' bikes, but often with not great tyre/mud clearance. The CdF has clearance for 'up to' a 42c tyre, but not if you've fitted mudguards, when the max tyre useable is a lot narrower (32c or thereabouts apparently. Mudguards also need to be a reasonable distance from the tyre itself, as too narrow a gap can clog up. So, a rigid forked '29er' seems more practical, but then all seem to come with a higher front end than I want. And hardly any seem to come with rack and guard mounts.

The only bikes that seem to closely fit my requirements are hybrids, but there doesn't seem to be anything off the peg that's of the quality I want (mostly lower end steel and alloy frames). Lighter, fancier hybrids sacrifice stuff like tyre clearance for 'sporty' geometry. Or there's 'expedition' bikes which are too heavy. So custom built is increasingly looking like the only option.

My mate has a custom Shand and besides the admittedly superb custom paint job it's almost exactly the same as my Salsa

Of course it is. The geometry is identical, the tubing is exactly the same, the BB shell, dropouts, headtube and cable guides are all carbon copies (pun intended) of the Salsa. No difference at all. Even the lifetime warranty is the same.

If I bought one Steven, could you apply some Salsa decals to it?

TIA 😆

If I bought one Steven, could you apply some Salsa decals to it?

just peel ours off, the Salsa ones are still underneath.

[img] [/img]

I think the point Molgrips was trying to make, was that there appears to be no tangible benefits of the bespoke frame, over an off the peg one.