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Look at how regularly mainstream bikes are 'updated', possibly a bit of emperors new clothes and that
A lot of emporers new clothes IMHO. After all the big companies are in the business of selling new bikes to somebody who's already got a previous model. You just have to look at how design does full circles back to where they started. There's not anything fundamentally wrong with an Orange SP, or a SC VPP - or indeed with a 1998 Marin SP!
My fleet is evenly split between mainstream (2 Specializeds) and a couple of boutique type frames (Van Nicholas and Cotic - also got On-One and Dave Hinde frames not currently built up). If Specialized made an equivalent (Ti or 853 hardtail) to the boutique frames I have then I'd definitely have considered one, especially if they were substantially cheaper.
That is true, but without people like Fox doing increasingly clever shocks, a lot of single pivot bikes would probably ride like total dogs!
Would putting a modern shock into a 12 year old Marin not be akin to what Orange have been doing for years!?
(runs)
a few points here;
your mate needs to decide what type of bike he wants, if he's staying with full suspension then his choices of boutique are restricted anyway.
then he needs to set his budget, if he's got £7000 the world is his oyster, if he got £700 quid then... well the world is not his oyster.
what does he do with his bikes, does he like trying different parts and playing in the garage or does he just want to buy it, ride it and put it away until next week?.
orange hardtails are manufactured in the far east whilst fs are manufactured in halifax.
are all bike frames really welded by hand?
we went out yesterday, at one point there was 20 of us, a mix of mass produced, boutique, old, new, hardtail, full suspension and a raleigh! the first one to reach the top of the climbs and the bottom of the descents was the rider with the strongest legs and biggest bollocks (or crapest brakes!!!), nowt to do with the bike.
mainstream manufacturers will change their designs annually because the marketing department want to sell more (that's common to all manufacturing, not just bikes) and we, the consumer, must have the latest model. orange have only tweaked the five a bit because it was good from the start, their approach was to add to the range, blood, st4 etc
My mate bought a new orange 5 with a fancy new fox shock in it, he had a quick go on my ten year old Marin Eastpeak and commented how much plusher the suspension was without all the fancy platform damping etc.
fancy platform damping etc.
imho platform damping is a technology that only exists to correct poor suspension designs...
I'd quite happily buy a boutique brand at the right price - I picked up my Inbred at £399 when they were on offer, built, with a full deore group etc. from on-one. I'd never have paid full price (£700 I think) for it - my urge to have a different bike isn't that strong.
At the end of the day, a big brand bike is going to be better on paper for the same money, whereas a "boutique" one is going to be different. In objective terms a VW Golf is a reliable car that's quiet and comfy, and sometimes fast. But people still buy Morgans for more money...
I'd never expect a boutique bike to be more reliable - in my view that's down to component choice. Pick stuff that's known for reliablity and build a simple bike.
I'd never expect a boutique bike to be more reliable - in my view that's down to component choice
Depends if we're talking about frames snapping.
I've trashed hand made and big brand frames. The difference is that the big brands have always given me free replacements.....
rootes1 - Memberfancy platform damping etc.
imho platform damping is a technology that only exists to correct poor suspension designs...
Sort of but not entirely. If a platform shock allows you to use a simpler/stiffer/lighter design then it's a good thing if the overall result is better than a design that works 'better' without platform damping.
Orange are not, IMO, Boutique. My idea of [i]boutique[/i] is all that fillet brazed, intricate dropout sporting niche nonsense you see at the handmade bike shows, typically bought by people for whom directional speaker cable is a concern.
I think the argument here is [i]large vs small scale[/i] manufacturing.
Large scale manufacturers provide the most bang for the buck through economy of scale. This is great for us, but with it comes a downside. The target market for such products is so vast that their bikes have to have mass market appeal. Fine for say 70% of riders, but too comprimised for the remaining 30.
If you have more specific tastes or requirements, perhaps dictated by your geographic location or trail conditions (what works briliantly for California rarely works so well in the Peak District) or pure personal preference, you have to look to the smaller guys who better accomodate or focus on those requirements. You'll get less for your money, but that's the price you pay for getting what you need.
If you really don't have any such specific requirements, buying from the smaller companies makes little financial sense. Marin, Giant and Specialized are your friends.
rootes1 - Memberfancy platform damping etc.
imho platform damping is a technology that only exists to correct poor suspension designs...
Sort of but not entirely. If a platform shock allows you to use a simpler/stiffer/lighter design then it's a good thing if the overall result is better than a design that works 'better' without platform damping.
Suppose, though platform damping by it very nature is resisting movement, not the same thing as stiffing etc.
from the bikes I have ridden i would take works properly without platform over requires platform and lever twiddling any day.
anyhow suppose this is going off topic...
Rootes..can you explain that in english please
Does that mean a steel hardtail has the best suspension as it has no shock at all just some basic springy tubes 🙂
Rootes..can you explain that in english please
I read it as meaning he has an illogical aversion to platform shocks, not backed up by experience...
From my limited experience I've found platform shocks excellent. My Enduro is very active unless locked out (these either had lockout or Brain shocks) but even with the most basic pro-pedal Vanilla (with the only available adjustment being rebound and no way to switch pro-pedal on or off) it seems to work amazingly well. Plenty of bounce when descending but virtually no bob when climbing.
No offence to Orange- definitely not Boutique. Its mass-market.
My Santa Cruz is also mass-market (but global mass market as opposed to UK). I love it. It doesnt have special welds etc- it just works.
[i]I think the argument here is large vs small scale manufacturing....[/i]
Absolutely, the small scale producers can fill the small market gaps that the mainstream producers don't think are economically viable - but that makes them low volume, not boutique, products.
One point that seems to have been missed is regardless of a Company's investment in R&D and warranties etc, the individual designer is a rather important part of the overall process.
I'm thinking of designers like Chis DeKerf, Tony Ellsworth, Jeff Streber, Dave Weagle and Brant to name a few. Their input can be and is important to some people (inc. me) who need to know their bike was not designed by a commitee and also that the bike was not designed to meet a specific price point.
IE: the designers have total control and take the design where their individual talent and flair allows. They are not (or shouldnt be) influenced by greedy marketing suits who demand year-on year sales growth.
A hugely simplified view is, Boutique/Niche brands make bikes because they love making bikes. Big companies make bikes because they love making money.
Discuss....
Their input can be and is important to some people (inc. me) who need to know their bike was not designed by a commitee and also that the bike was not designed to meet a specific price point.
Can't say that any of that is relevant to me. I'm only really interested in the resulting design - not who designed it and what their motivation was (guess I'll never own a Jones then). I don't know (or care) who designed my Epic but still think it's a great bike.
I own bikes designed by both Cy and Brant so am interested when they come out with something new, however they've yet to design anything more relevant to my riding than the Inbred and Soul, so those are what I still have.
A hugely simplified view is, Boutique/Niche brands make bikes because they love making bikes. Big companies make bikes because they love making money.
But most of the people who work for big bike firms do so because they love bikes, surely?
And sometimes a committee (or you might call it a team) can produce better work than an individual, bringing different expertise and perspectives to the same task.
A hugely simplified view is, Boutique/Niche brands make bikes because they love making bikes. Big companies make bikes because they love making money.
No, bike companies are generally started by people who love building bikes, and arguably get it more right than those who end up owning boutique brands! Mike Sinyard anyone, 2 hour lunch rides for all the Spesh employees at Morgan Hill.
ballsofcottonwool - that's been photoshopped 😉
I stand corrected.
imho platform damping is a technology that only exists to correct poor suspension designs...
gash.
I guess it depends what sort of bike you're after. All manufacturers are governed/resricted by their manufacturing methods. If you're after a fillet brazed steel hardtail, then chances are you're best bet is 'boutique'. If however you want regular FS bike then in my opinion best ones tend to be made using lots of cold forged bits and hydroforming and require a lot of R&D, so tend to be from big companies using Taiwanese factories...
If they make mainstream frames as pretty and shiny as boutique frames then that's fine. For me personally, I like different. I've got a lovely marin mount vision 2009 awesome bike to ride, it's had about 5 rides in total and I'm going to be selling the frame because it just doesn't get my juices flowing to look at. So if someone wants an award winning ultra reliable super competent trail bike frame there will be going for sale soon.
More bling awaits 😀
If however you want regular FS bike then in my opinion best ones tend to be made using lots of cold forged bits and hydroforming
No - the best ones tend to be made using lots of moulded composite bits, which requires even more R&D and can only be done in big Taiwanese factories.
Bikes are a bit like cars, once you've spent a certain amount there are very, very few really crap ones.
As to brands/marketing, people will pay far in excess of a products costs if they believe the hype - you've only got to look at the high 'value' fashion items. Many years ago I did some work at an importer of materials and silks - they were buying scarves in at dozen for a pound - that eventually ended up in Liberty at £50+ each.
As for bikes, for me the cost of the frame is irrelevent - its how it rides thats the key. But its in the components where you can make a real difference, and usually money talks.
Its also very enjoyable in buying a mainstream bike, and then swapping and buying top end stuff over time - whenever deals and/or breakages happen.
All the gear and no idea, comes to mind. He's been happy riding his old bike for ages so dont believe the hype of any make, large or small, it's about testing them, even if it's just off the kerb outside the shop. As Bruce would say .... Don't think.... Feel
I am fortunate enough to ride a few premium brand bikes. Ibis Mojo, Salsa Selma and a Whyte 19. But after lots of research I felt (not knew) these were the right bikes.
As I am lucky enough to be in the job I am, I wanted to have bikes which were outside the upgrade every year route.
But it's logical that you get the best price vs quality from the big brands. Trek/Spesh/Giant have frame designers, suspension designers, colour gurus etc.
Is my Mojo better than a Fuel? IMHO slightly, but I would tell my friend with a smaller budget to buy a Trek. If they love the Fuel they can always upgrade in the future.
Boutique for me is custom. Nicholi, Jones, Independant Fab etc. Yes one day, but I am still getting there.
Is my Mojo better than a Fuel? IMHO slightly, but I would tell my friend with a smaller budget to buy a Trek
My Fuel has a retail price of £5500, I could've bought a very bling Mojo SL for that, if not less. It's not about 'being fortunate' enough to be able to afford boutique stuff, and that's what I don't really get. Mainstream doesn't necessarily equal cheap.
only price 😀
Njee. You are right. But my mojo retails at very similar to your Trek and every single part is how I wouls like it. Frame, Wheels, Components were all my choice. I also looked long and hard at the 9.8 with the plan to make it into my dream 9.9. But I know that next year there won't be a new better '11 mojo coming out
So for me it made more sense.I have ridden most 'special' bikes, corporate or niche but felt that the Mojo (not SL) suited me best.
Why have you changed from your pimp Epic?
But for my brother who haf a 1500-2000 budget he could get a bike (EX8) almost as good as my Mojo for a lot less. At the top end its all abput choice, your pimp EX is the mutts, in its area the best. But in six months there will be a Trek ever so slightly better. My ibis will still be a rival....
But buying niche/premium/boutique you also run the risk that the bike you choose might not match your riding stlye. Buy big brand and you can almost know that you will jump on and like it.
If a small builder/designer/engineer matches your style exaclty, then and only then you know their choice will be spot on. But that's their style, the big guys are buildimg and designing bikes to all riding styles and shapes. You know it will work. I had two decade of MTBing and two years of riding great Trek Fuels (Alu and Carbon) and Anthems before I went a tiny bit off mainstream.
your mad 😯
I think boutique v mainstream is the wrong approach for your friend.He needs to decide what he wants the bike to do,then test ride bikes that will do this,then decide which he wants ,based on ride spec and price.
The mainstream brands may not be as "excitinf",but how much of that is media hype anyway? I've moved from a Rocky Mountain ETS-X to a Trek remedy,coz I wanted more travel and a burlier build.Can't say I've noticed any difference in build quality,but the trek offers more bang per buck IMO.
Ian
Anyone can afford a 5k bike. Its called 0%APR.
What is crackers is someone buying a 5k bike and driving round in a 2k car. I couldnt get my head round that.
Especially as mtb's plummet in value.
Buy any frame- get it resprayed in a colour of your choice and its unique, far better than boutique. Simples 😀
Especially as mtb's plummet in value.
And cars don't?
A 5k car doesnt plummet in value over a year does it?
Anyone can afford a 5k bike. Its called 0%APR.
What is crackers is someone buying a 5k bike and driving round in a 2k car. I couldnt get my head round that.
Especially as mtb's plummet in value.
Buy any frame- get it resprayed in a colour of your choice and its unique, far better than boutique. Simples
That’s the spirit 0.1% counts as a recovery apparently, lets get up to our eyeballs in 0% magic free Debt again!!
5K bike 2K Car? Sounds like that person has their priorities in order to me…
Compared with Cars, bikes hold there value stunningly well, Especially MTBs, if someone tried to sell you a car telling you they had “used it mostly off road” and “Not had any big crashes” would you buy it?
I like bikes but I came to realise its the person and the person's fitness and attitude that are more important than a bit of bling.
Riding around on 5k (even 2k) doesn't make you a better rider.
Hence rider training is in order for me this year and Im aiming to get out more 😀
hora last year i was driving to rides in a £180 mondeo with a 5k bike in the boot , not so bad this year my cars worth £1500 but i do more miles on the bike than i do in the car so why not 😉
Why have you changed from your pimp Epic?
I change every season (another case for mainstream there actually, I really struggled to sell my Titus, where as people have bitten my arm off for my Epics for the last 3 years!), and just fancied a change from Spesh. The Fuel seems very nice, even more bling than any of the Epics!
I love orange but would certainly not consider them boutique. Take Ventana offering frames for a price which not far off mass produced stuff. Everything bar the bearings made in-house (including the powdercoating now, so they have control over the quality), offering custom and semi custom geo, customer service where you speak with the main man, trade in programme - the list goes on. There are others in a similar vein too.
I've had warranty issues with big brands in the past. I'd rather them spend less on flashy advertising and more on basic customer service and support and REAL R&D - so they are not sending out poor product which is being tested by us! Grrrr.
@hora -
Agreed.
But given a 7K pot of free money and tasked with purchasing a car and a bike I think I’d weight my spending towards the bike end of things, cant see why people see such importance in a car...
Who wants a pricey car? It only gets keyed it’s not like you can drive the thing at any speed anywhere anyway, if your not stuck behind some blue-rinser then the rozzers have a camera waiting for you…
Nah something to transport bikes and people that is all a car is for these days, so why spend more on it?
so they are not sending out poor product which is being tested by us!
You really think it's the mainstream manufacturers doing that? As a percentage failure rate from what I've seen I would say the boutique brands are far more guilty of that!