My thoughts haven’t changed much since the days of the C5 … every home should have (and use) an eBike or something similar … and eBikes are ace fun off road … but even with strict legal definitions between eBikes and electric off road motorbikes, the lines will get blurred, and we should be worried about that when it comes to keeping access to trails (legal or not) and the views of other land users and owners towards mountain bikes. Should bike brands be helping to keep a clear delineation between eBikes and MX, rather them actively feed the blurring of the two?
On the one hand, mountain biking has benefitted greatly from component manufacturers (especially shock brands) getting involved… on the other hand, how to we ensure the public continue to treat the issues of mountain biking and off road motor bike use as separate things? People are far more excepting of pedal powered bikes in the countryside now than they were when I started mountain biking… the “it’s more like hiking then riding a motor bike off road” took a good while to take off… how do we hold onto it?
There are no blurred lines. The law is pretty clear. As ever, people who break the law are the problem
Well, many of us “break the law” every ride, access wise.
Anyway, the derestricting argument wasn’t my point… it was that if a bike brand actively blurs the lines between legal eBikes and a whole different category with their sales and marketing approach (see the link about Intense above) how are we expected to educate and keep other land users and land owners on side when it comes to mountain bikes and eBikes?
how to we ensure the public continue to treat the issues of mountain biking and off road motor bike use as separate things?
Public floggings to show we're serious.
If they can make a chain and cassette with a decent wear rate on a legal ebike, then I’m all for it!
The new Tazer MX model will feature motocross-inspired componentry from recognizable MX brands and is being developed from the wheels up specifically for the powersports customer.
Marketing gumpf.
It's got ohlins forks/shock and a renthal bar. Some motocross bikes also use ohlins forks/shocks and renthal cockpits.
As do many other mtb and emtbs.
As above, the line between the 2 types of bike are very much defined.
If I put a playing card in the spokes of my mtb so it sounds like a motorbike, does that blur the line between then? It's 'MX inspired' as I want it to sound (a bit) like a motorbike, in the same way as the bike in the OP looks (a bit) like an MX bike...
Yay, the weekly ebike philosophy thread.
While you lot argue about this, I'm off to ride my stupid expensive toy in the woods while all around planet Earth slowly becomes an uninhabitable hellscape.
If Intense want to release the ugliest bike known to mankind in the meantime, I will exercise my right to ignore it.
every home should have (and use) an eBike or something similar …
Why should every home have an eBike?
There are no blurred lines. The law is pretty clear.
There ARE blurred lines, regardless, or even because of the law in this area. The law itself blurs the lines; a bike with a motor isn’t a motorbike as long as it’s power output is below an arbitrary level and it’s power is assisting pedals. It’s utter codswallop and allows for a large degree of both legal and illegal interpretation. Ebikes on the road for utility make a lot of sense, environmentally, where the miles they do replace miles that would have been made by an ICE vehicle. Ebikes off road are an environmental abuse; greater trail wear, and generated energy being used to power riders over additional miles that they would not be doing otherwise, or would be but would be self propelled. Ebikes should either be subject to the same rules as motorcycles off road (ie; closed tracks and green lane byways) or else licensed with some sort of ‘blue badge’ scheme to allow people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to participate in mountain biking to enjoy of road cycling.
EMTBs are rapidly evolving into something altogether different to trail MTBing, something altogether more ‘Gnarr’ and akin to enduroMX, and not really consistent with sustainable trail use in this crowded country.
All MTB’s should be steel hardtails. This will make it easier to spot other ‘wrong’ bike types and also give me so much more choice when looking for a new to me bike
Sorry to go off topic but, my Lord, that thing is ugly.
Oh dear… I was hoping for less of the eBike bashing (and backlash to it), and more discussion on the ‘wisdom’ of a bike brand deliberately trading off motor bike connections to sell eBikes, and how that could be counterproductive for both eBike users and other mountain bikers as regards winning support from other land users and land owners as regards access (both legal and tolerated use outside the law).
Surely Shimano has a slimmer battery for Internal mounting? There is no need for such a fat downtube these days.
Being a spesh fanboy I'm not familiar with other manufacturers offering though.
Clearly not a motorbike though unless you are particularly stupid, or american.
Clearly not a motorbike though unless you are particularly stupid, or american.
Whilst not a motorcycle for UK road traffic legislation purposes, it clearly is a Motorbike.
It's a standard 250w ebike. Mx'ers are going to be disappointed when they ride one chipped or not.
Well, many of us “break the law” every ride, access wise.
I don't.
Well done Eddie. I hope you’re north of the border.
Right, don’t just retread the “eBike good or bad, mountain bike or not mountain bike” boring old tripe please… does anyone want to actually discuss a mountain bike brand blurring the lines between eBikes and eMX in their sales and marketing approach, and how it might effect how eBike users and other mountain bike users are seen by non-users, and possible knock on effects?
LOL at V8ninety, been drinking with too many redsocks I see!
LOL at V8ninety, been drinking with too many redsocks I see!
😜 nope, I just think that trails should be for human powered machines only. Allowing motors is a slippery slope. I appreciate that mine is a minority view.
nope, I just think that trails should be for human powered machines only. Allowing motors is a slippery slope. I appreciate that mine is a minority view.
Given that emtbs provide power assistance, of maybe 250 Watts - does that mean you also think that an althete level rider who can put out 500w for a good time should be banned from trails too?
Apart from the extra weight of an ebike (which is irrelevant as an extra 10kg isn't even 2 stone, we don't ban people from riding trails based on their weight...) all an emtb gives you is an extra few hundred Watts peak and average power.
So, are you going to tell Chris Hoy that he can't ride an mtb on UK trails?
Back to the OP - I don't think we're there yet as electric MX bikes aren't that common here, yet...
You'll have emtbs that resemble MX bikes a little more, and maybe lightweight electric dirt bikes but apart from marketing (and maybe the odd ill informed nimby) I don't think it'll be an issue for a while.
Please, eBikes being treated the same as other bikes has been done to death… on loads of threads. Any chance of discussing mountain bike brands using motor bike connections and connotations to sell eBikes…?
[edit: thanks for your edit ta11pau1]
Agreed that one USA brand taking this approach will have little to no immediate effect over here… but what if is not only adopted by others, but becomes the norm? I’m hoping other brands stick to eBikes as mountain bikes in their sales and marketing approach… but will the promise of expanding their target market be irresistible?
To answer the question directly op I suppose it really only matters if the general public see the "blurred lines" potentially created by marketing?
Most riders are much better informed than Joe bloggs walking his dog. So yes, imo, if the marketing results in the great British public starting to think "that motor bike should not be here" then we might have issues.
To be clear,I hope my opinion is wrong and I'm underestimating Joe Public?
I don’t thing you’re underestimating the non-riding public one bit.
But I am hoping this marketing approach will be avoided over here.
It's quite a selfish view V8ninety, particularly since the points you make are the same erroneous ones as walkers have made against mtb. Best to focus your energy on inclusion rather than exclusion, responsible use of trails rather than keeping them all to yourself.
It’s quite a selfish view V8ninety, particularly since the points you make are the same erroneous ones as walkers have made against mtb.
The only point I’ve made against EMTBs that could have been erroneously made against MTB’s by ramblers is ‘greater trail wear’ and whilst it’s easy to argue against ramblers because an MTB only has the same power as a rambler and a tiny bit more weight, it’s not so easy to argue against it when you’ve got a motor that is pushing out a sustained 100-150% more power than the average human can manage from a larger, heavier machine. The additional trail wear is real; as an example it is very visible on every uphill stretch of the Verderers trail where eMTB riders are routinely shortcutting the well designed switchback climbs creating ugly wide eMTB lines up the hills. It really highlights the extra power available and therefore extra erosion that eMTBs are the cause of already.
The title of this thread is ‘blurred lines’ and I agree with it; but it’s not just marketing that has blurred the lines, it’s ill considered legislation that has allowed people to argue with a straight face that a bike with a motor is not a motorbike. Surreal.
Keep motors on roads. Simple.
discussion on the ‘wisdom’ of a bike brand deliberately trading off motor bike connections to sell eBikes
They're a company trying to convince people to buy their products. If the thing isn't profitable, it won't stay on the market long. My guess is that it will be successful.
When I see what walkers did to the pennine way and what farm animals do around every gate every winter, I’m not sure arguments against bikes or ebikes and erosion stack up.
Yes, you need to watch those animals around gates.
😀😀😀
That is not an E MX bike, its just an e DH bike with a standard shimano motor, same idea as a Kenevo etc.
That is just advertising.
This is an e MX bike
The only point I’ve made against EMTBs that could have been erroneously made against MTB’s by ramblers is ‘greater trail wear’
Specifically, you mentioned more erosion and over greater distances. These being equally simple to level at MTB when compared to walking. The point is, you're singling out a group of people just because they're doing something different to you. Does it occur to you that, whilst you're complaining about some straightlining of trails, some walkers might be complaining about the switchbacks. You're talking about a purpose built mtb trail, correct?
My guess is that it will be successful.
I suspect so. Will others take the same marketing path, and will that confuse people that we need to win over when it comes to changing/keeping the legal access we have (when using an eBike or any other cycle) or acceptance/tolerance/indifference of people riding beyond what current access laws strictly allow?
That is just advertising.
Yes, it’s just advertising. Anyone into MX or mountain biking should know and understand the (big) difference between the two. It’s how people who don’t ride either might be influenced by a marketing push that seeks to link the two that has me wondering.
does that mean you also think that an althete level rider who can put out 500w for a good time should be banned from trails too?
A vanishingly small number of people can sustain 500W on a bike for any significant time, so it's not a very useful comparison.
Sustained power...
Except that is not how Ebikes work is it? Hence why they are classified as pedelecs not motorbikes! Still don’t let the facts get in the way of a good bigoted rant 😂
Please, if you possibly can, take that boring done to death argument elsewhere.
Lol, it could indeed be tempting to call that some sort of vindication.
will that confuse people that we need to win over when it comes to changing/keeping the legal access we have (when using an eBike or any other cycle) or acceptance/tolerance/indifference of people riding beyond what current access laws strictly allow?
No.
Would this blurring of lines between Motorcross and e mountain bikes be also detrimental to Motorcrosser's as well?
As not far from where I live there is a couple of areas where Motorcross type bikes are tolerated as they are on bits of land that are not popular with walkers (shale bings etc).
But if you had a high powered pedal assist bike you could use the adjacent canal to get to and from the bings increasing the likelihood of clashes with walkers. This could then create a clamp down on all motorised (bikes with motors) as it would be hard for the average person to tell the difference between them.
I must admit that I was very tempted by the electric Motorcross bikes that were on top gear a while back and I'd consider myself to be a relatively law abiding person. Imagine if you could buy one from Halfords for less than £1k, they would be very popular.
I'm pro e bikes in general though as most I've seen have been ridden by folk who would otherwise not be cycling and are being ridden in a law abiding way.
But if you had a high powered pedal assist bike you could use the adjacent canal to get to and from the bings increasing the likelihood of clashes with walkers.
It’s just an ebike. No faster on the canal path than any other ebike, and slower along a canal path than most normal mountain bikes.
EMTBs are rapidly evolving into something altogether different to trail MTBing, something altogether more ‘Gnarr’ and akin to enduroMX, and not really consistent with sustainable trail use in this crowded country.
Already was blurring and evolving that way well before e-bikes appeared. Trails getting dug, cutties being filmed, roost and air etc.
You can pick the bones out of my previous comment/s but my main point is that e-bikes that look like Motorcross bikes (and marketed that way) would potentially in the long run not be beneficial to the whole motorcross scene as well as the mountain bike scene.
The average Joe wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them so when (and it will be when not if) an accident occurs with someone being hit by an one of these e-bike/crossers (restricted or derestricted) then e-bikers and Motorcrosser's will both be vilified equally. I can see the headlines now 'e-bike louts run amok!'
That’s some leap of conjecture! Despite the OPs protestations you have to apply a huge amount of confirmation bias to the original article for it to support his hypothesis.
A more suitable headline would be “middle aged men in don’t like new things shock!” 😉
The average Joe wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between them so when (and it will be when not if) an accident occurs with someone being hit by an one of these e-bike/crossers (restricted or derestricted) then e-bikers and Motorcrosser’s will both be vilified equally. I can see the headlines now ‘e-bike louts run amok!’
Better that than them looking like mountain bikes.
Motorcrossers have their areas to go play - sadly no heading out of your door to an extensive green lane network on most of our overpopulated island, you need somewhere considerably more empty
It would be a sad day if that happened to MTB too. Knobs on ebikes could take it that way.