[Closed] bikers and green lanes

My objection to them is more to do with "green lane-ers" not using green lanes and destroying other parts of the countryside that they shouldn't be in.

That frustration then boils over onto those using the legitimate lanes. It's not big and cleaver, and I don't like myself for it, but I don't seem to be able to help myself.

I have similar issues to mountain bikers using "Cheeky trails" but then I'm a bit anal about sticking to "rules" in general....

it just annoys me when people bikers seem to think they own trails they regularly use and anyone else is trespassing on there turf 🙄 then have the cheek to threaten to involve the authorities when you've done nothing wrong

it just annoys me when people bikers seem to think they own trails they regularly use and anyone else is trespassing on there turf then have the cheek to threaten to involve the authorities when you've done nothing wrong

I think part of the problem is the damage that 4x4s and MXers can do, if the ground is in the slightest bit soft it gets ripped apart to the point it becomes unusable by everyone.

thats why i like to ride footpaths 😈

I don't mind them using the same trails as me aslong as they don't rip it up as much as they do. Also the motorbikes put loud exhausts on for no reason...

Haven ridden both pushbikes and motorbikes off road I find the worst thing for making a mess of a trail is a horse. And it leaves shite everywhere too.
Loud pipes save lives.

supposedly motorbikes dont do as much damage as a car but they go everywhere to try make it more challenging which means they go off the track onto the verges ripping the fresh grass up where as in a 4x4 you don't have as much freedom to move about although there are some idiots who go tearing off looking for mud to get stuck in and just purposely make a mess

Don't mind them using green lanes as they're allowed. Don't like them going off road in undesgnated areas but I ride undesignated areas too so pot kettle and all that.

horses are a nuisance around here on soft moorland where they sink into the mud making ankle braking sized holes... and the people riding them (mainly women) can't keep control of them when they get giddy around bikes and its always your fault

Same as some greenlaners act like fools some bikers do too. We sadly only remember the bad ones.

Around my way there are far more BOATs than bridleways. It's also an area due to the geographical make-up that gets very very muddy. Due to the number of boats and the "challenging" conditions we get lots of groups of bikes and 4x4s come to the area at the weekends.

The reason I've come to dislike them is that they turn local byways open to all traffic into byways passable only by motorised vehicles and those travelling by foot, horse or push bike have to find alternative routes as they are so churned up. And as I said earlier we don't do many bridleways so legal mtb riding gets pretty thin on the ground.

I respect that the law allows them to be there (although there are plenty of boats around here with bans on motorised vehicles from November to March which seem to be frequently still used in the winter) but modern vehicles do seem a little large, heavy and powerful to do the long term health of these fragile old byways much good.

I am aware of the irony of mountain bikers complaining about other users doing damage and it does remind me how I might be viewed by others further down the off road food chain 😉

[b]mrmo[/b]
I think part of the problem is the damage that 4x4s and MXers can do, if the ground is in the slightest bit soft it gets ripped apart to the point it becomes unusable by everyone

It's about picking your routes, being considerate and playing by the rules.

Where to start……..

The Dales has had a lot of damage to green lanes from recreational vehicles which became ‘exponential’ in the late 1990s and beyond due to a discovery of the opportunities by many. This was curbed to a large extent in 2006 by the NERC Act which effectively stopped any new public rights of way for recreational vehicles being recorded in England and Wales. There are however still Byways Open to All Traffic (BOATs) that carry rights and UCRs that although not carrying recorded rights, were exempt from NERC so a prosecution for driving on them is unlikely as rights might (beyond reasonable doubt) exist.

Recreational vehicles (unlike pedal cycles (bikes)), have never had a right created on such green lanes - the rights were for wheeled horse-drawn-carts so as time went by, carts were replaced by cars and motor bikes then suddenly they were ‘discovered’ as a recreational resource for drivers and so the horse/cart ‘loophole’ exploited. Bikes however are a different matter. In the 1960’s legislation was introduced to expressly allow them on bridleways and BOATs. You therefore cannot equate the rights of motors to be on green lanes with the rights of walkers, cyclists and horses.

Recreational vehicle drivers argue they have a legal right to be there (which they have with the loophole) however eventually that will be closed as the majority of people think it is inappropriate (ICM poll). If you look back at how the UK has cleaned up it’s act, the environment and general wellbeing you cannot see that the improvement made over the last 25 years will not be continued over the next 25. For example it is very difficult (I would say impossible) to argue that driving recreational motors ‘for fun’ on green lanes in a National Park is in line with the special (statutory) purposes of the Park. That when the drivers could just as well ‘enjoy’ the lanes on foot, cycle, horse or disabled (special) vehicle.

Recreational vehicle users often quote that walkers don’t like cyclists however that’s not really arguing a good point for vehicles! It is playground arguing and shows there is no real positive argument that sets out why allowing recreational motor vehicles on green lanes is a good thing.

I live and was brought up in the Yorkshire Dales, ride my bike on the green lanes there every week and have seen the relentless degradation of the unique resource that is our green lanes which is why I support management of the routes and have joined GLEAM-uk.org to press fro green lanes to be free from recreational motor vehicles.

C

It does seem that 4x4's in general do cause an inordinate amount of damage.
The Tennyson Trail which runs along the spine of the Isle of Wight was quite popular about 10 years ago with the 4x4 set 1and was closed to the majority of 4x4's around 3 or 4 years ago. Only now has it stabilised and returned to what it was previously. Some of the more fragile / softer parts where like swamps even in the summer.
A more pragmatic approach needs to be taken to where people ride. This applies to bikes/ horses / 4x4s. I see a lots of trails ripped up by horses over the winter and in the summer they are a lumpy nightmare. Most of the bike riders I know tend to avoid the softer stuff in winter to prevent trail damage. Horse riders less so, especially the steeper stuff, all you end up with are loads of churned up steps down the hillsides.

I obviously want everybody to be able to enjoy the countryside.

But the rights of way system is rubbish.

It needs to be based on what is sustainable.

Plenty of green lanes are not capable of supporting 4x4 without destroying the surface for other users.

There are attempts to try and make green lanes sustainable for 4x4 but surely this is closing the door after the horse has bolted.

Ie the lane should be capable of supporting a 4x4 and hence its a green lane/boat not the other way round.

The whole ROW system needs to be updated all routes should be reclassified mainly based on sustainability but also on suitability.

Im my opinion many of the bridleways in the Chilterns arent suitable for horse riders in the Winter and should just be open for 9 months of the year.

Also many footpaths can quite often be wide open and almost be roads these should clearly be open to MTBers and horse riders.

And clearly there needs to be separate categories for bikes, powered bikes and powered 4 wheel vehicles.

With bikes total weight of bike + rider 100 - 150kg being treated very differently from horse + rider 380 to 550 kilograms + 70kg rider.

T***
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a long time ago i used to work on a farm with several byways, we were encouraged by the owner/farmer to cut up the byways as much as possible at the start and ends to quote "keep the riff raff out". you can do a lot of damage in a tractor.

they don't bother me much to be honest, the only thing i don't like is the noise....as it scares the crap out of me and i have visions of being ran over by some massive Dakar rally type bike

I don't think that you can generalize I have seem some Landrover drivers and offroad motorcyclists who drive with great care and consideration for the track they use, I have also seen others who are incapable going anywhere without ripping the track to shreads.

You are very right. You cannot generalise which is why the law cannot allow 'just a few 4x4s' or 'just the slow trail bikes'. It would be like having a drink drive law that allows 'only the ones who can hold their drink'!!

C

Kayak

whats the biggest damage to snowdon?
1 4x4
or a ****ing massive railway carved and blasted out of the rock and bridges built and just a total massive eyesore to take a few sightseers up a Mountain.

Irony?

Sancho, I am sure you are right. If applied for in 2012 Snowdonia NP would never ever allow an application to build a railway up Snowdon.

I am confident that the next move will be legaslation to ban recreational motoring on all unsurfaced tracks in National Parks because of the special qualities of the Parks.

C

as 4x4 and trail bike user use BOATS and RUPP's, then these are under the control of the local authority. If there is a problem with drainage, or the lane being water logged in winter, then its the local authorities duty to repair or make good the trail.
As a trail bike rider of some years, I've come up against many a snotty walker/mtb'er giving me their thoughts about my mode of transport, even when on perfectly legal right of way. If walkers/mtber's don't like seeing other users on lanes, go walk/ride on a footpath or bridleway away from motorised vehicles. Otherwise learn to share.

I don't drive on Greenlanes, done it once and it's not for me, I like my bike.

At the end of the day though 4x4s and MX bikes have very few rights of way left. Live and let live really. If you don't like them go elsewhere

Some of the responsible Green land chaps do a lot to maintain and fix stuff. It's not all knob heads

Hi Daisy D,

RUPPs do no longer exist, they were all converted en-masse on 1 May 2006 to be Restricted Byways and hence only have public rights to walk, cycle, horse ride and horse drawn cart.

Mantainance is not the job of the Local Authority. It is that of the Highway Authority if the way is mentained at public expense, or the land owner if it not. Here in the Yorkshire Dales many ways have public rights (to use) but are privatly mentainable. Notwithstanding that, mentain, mentain, mentain is not the answer. Routes across open moor and country that were designed in 1700 for carts should not be made into motorways just so some bloke in a massive 4x4 can indulge and show off his manlyness

C

if motorised users have a legal right of way, then they are at liberty to use them. Many lanes weren't designed for cyclists, but we are lucky enough to use them. The ROW legislation is all to cock in this country, but we need to learn to use our countryside along with others.
Now I don't live in Yorkshire dales, but here in North Wales, our local TRF have spent hours opening unused lanes which would otherwise disappear. The majority of lanes we used to ride on are unsuitable to walkers cyclists are they are overgrown. I'm not going to feel guilty for riding legal byways, because it may offend someone how knows little about the legal ROW system.
[url] [/url]

In all this people forget about mother nature and farm vehicles.
Problem with alot of mtbikers these days they have never been in the countryside till they got a bike.I have greenlaned for years never had a problem with farmers or landowners have had some nice chats.Only problem i have is with walkers and cyclist.Funny that.I get more hassle on a mountain bike to be honest.

[quote="Sancho said"]
Kayak

whats the biggest damage to snowdon?
1 4x4
or a **** massive railway carved and blasted out of the rock and bridges built and just a total massive eyesore to take a few sightseers up a Mountain.

Irony?

I see your point, however, that damage is at least minimal and controlled now to some extent, its not going to get worse really is it.
Allowing 4x4'ers access to places like that would undoubtedly only leave the area in the kind of 'Battle-of-the-Somme' type conditions that I encounter on bridleways all too frequently.
I have little sympathy with 4x4 enthusiasts. Perhaps an island should be provided where they can all go and winch themselves out of puddles, and maybe stick the jet-skiers there too... 😮

Not on MY island i hope!

Allowing 4x4'ers access to places like that would undoubtedly only leave the area in the kind of 'Battle-of-the-Somme' type conditions that I encounter on bridleways all too frequently.

Unlikely, there's nothing resembling soil on Snowdon really.

Daisy D,

You say that if motorised users have a legal right to use a RoW then they should. Again that is only an anomaly and a ‘loophole’ which needs closing. Remember these RoW have been handed down to us solely because they were once cart tracks.

As for the TRF clearing tracks, they might not be as do-goody as you think. They repair only a fraction of the damage that they make as a nation and they would only open up a lane so they can ride motorbikes up and down it. I would have some respect for them if they cleared a lane then just walked up and down. Also they might clear a track ( and remember it’s a tiny amount of clearing that is done) then trash it riding up and own.

And I'm not sure how they repair the damaage to the peace and tranquilllity, or that made by buring oil etc

C

some facts

see: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/rural/countryside/prow/about.htm

Figures for England
Total public righs of way (kilometeres) - 188,700 kilometres
BOATs - 3,700 km

Chris E, you're not really prepared to share are you ?

Regarding maintenance -
"County Council responsibilities
Ensure the Definitive Map and Statement are kept up to date
Signposting all rights of way where they leave a metalled road and providing additional signs and waymarks where necessary
Keeping the surface of rights of way in good repair and managing natural surface growth, including field headlands
Ensuring that farmers comply with the law that paths over cultivated land are properly restored after they have been disturbed and remain apparent on the ground thereafter
Prevent the closure or obstruction of any highway
Ensure maintenance of existing bridges and culverts and installation of new ones
Provide a 25% grant to landowners for repair or improvement of structures
Administer the Parish Paths Partnership scheme"

it looks to me as if the landowner does not maintain BOATS (they do stiles and gates).

Regarding the Yorkshire Dales national park:
Total ROW length(km) = 2178 + 1879 = 4047, BOATS (total) = 46km, so it must cost a bleeding fortune to keep that open.

chris e - get off your bloody high horse.

spent an awful lot of time fighting the prejudiced views of your parish councillors etc re; the definitive map. the country side is there to be used and enjoyed by all as long as it is done in a legal and responible manner.

Farmers are as guilty as any other user especially the hilltop occupiers in their unimogs and fasttracks! horseriders in he wrong conditions and the thousands of walkers!!

same with any discipline - you get idiots and tossers, as trailriders in the dales the biggest problem was MXrs coming in vans on unregistered bikes treating all the lanes like a race track - twice I put my own bike in the way of some lads from the northeast and told them to bugger off.

IMHO Chris your not the voice of all dales residents - Mr Wilkinson from the garage in Kettlewell will help you with some other view points.

Last time I was riding in the dales on my MTB I was riding from Arncliffe to Street gate - came across 3 lads on 250's coming down (naughty I know!) I had a chat with them at a gate pointed out their error and they thanked me and said they'd cross it off the list. TBH I was making a bigger rut with my 2.1 then they were - no visible damage at all.

sorry - ROW issues get my bloody goat - ALL types!!

Look out for the NIMBY Nazis, you'll only be allowed on a ROW if you own the land or wear red socks

First they came for the 4x4s,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a 4x4 enthusiast.

Then they came for the MX 'ers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a MX er.

Then they came for the Horseriders,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Horse. 😯

Then they came for Mountain Bikes
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Live and let live, they don't have much to play on

and I claim Goodwin

+1 Tiger

I remember dealing with the nimbys during the definitive map debacle

Only time I can think of when horsey types, mtb'rs and trailriders fought against a common 'foe'

They were enlightened enough to see the powers that the new act enabled and the possible problems that could be caused for all users other then your wooly hat brigade!!

+ 1 Tiger & Talltom

Live & let live I say, not ridden a motorbike off road for prob 25 years & never driven 4 x 4 but if thats what folk wanna do then let them, so few legal routes now that to restrict them even further is just being plain mean.

An old route near us, must have been some sort of byway if not bridleway in the past, now partially tarmac to get to a house & the owner goes crazy if you so much as push a bicycle along it

ChrisEe's comments about 'a loophole' allowing motor vehicles on green lanes is a real red herring. Of course RoWs originated with horse and carts, they all did whether tarmacked eventually or not. When motor transport took over they still used unsurfaced RoWs obviously mainly in country areas. So at what point does motor transport become offensive? It seems when it becomes recreational, which seems illogical.

live and let live

in many areas the [b][u]noise[/u][/b] and aggression shown by the majority of greenlaners is simply in the wrong place even when the activity is legal, majority because its the minority that are quiet(er) and give way to other users

as to the mtb's will be next argument - the distinction is simple - no motor = no noise and not a lot more erosion than walkers or horses

this could become a self fulfilling prophecy for those that have the attitudes of the offroaders and choose to align with them - rather than look to what the Ramblers Association and CROW have achieved for walkers

Ruts. They are a pain in the a***.

I obviously want everybody to be able to enjoy the countryside.

But the rights of way system is rubbish.

It needs to be based on what is sustainable.

Halleluja!

I nearly posted a proper comment on here just now but....
Too depressing.
Most 4x4 are.... Majority of Geen-laners are..... They're all the same you know...

OOh look! Red ones in my sock draw.

Be careful what you wish for, it'll be us next who'll be banned...

glad you said that b r

it's a point that all too few grasp!!!!

First of all something to grasp. Those who argue that there are 188,700 kilometres of RoW in England and Wales but only 3,700 km of BOATs then go on to argue that they are not offroaders they are traveling on ‘roads’. However if that is the case there are 188,700Km of lesser RoW and well over 400,000Km or A, B and lesser classified roads. So motor users have by far more places to drive than a few BOATs.

The maintenance liability of a RoW is not connected at all with the rights over it. Many routes have public rights to go over them but are privately mentioned, for example RT routes. There are many many RT routes in the Dales.

I haven’t spoken to the garage owner at Kettlewell but the attitude you speak of is not at all typical of the farmers, residents and MTBers I know around here. I don’t think it’s surprising that the only person you quote as liking offroaders is a guy whose spends all day on Sunday selling petrol to tourists.

As for ‘bikes will be next’ – of course that’s an argument that you can never resolve either way. That said the government and the YDNP have consistently supported bikes, pumped money into cycling routes and cycling generally so much so that I don’t believe that argument at all.

C

The point here is 'off road'

The fact that there's nearly half a million K's of tarmac is a moot point!

The Chap at the petrol station is just an example - you ever tried buying fuel off him?? Kettlewell has no legal lanes near there so get very little trail traffic.

In 15 years of trail riding I've only had 1 instance of a walker having issues with the trail we were on (Mastiles before it was closed). Yet on mtbs I've had quite a few run ins with Horse riders and ramblers - Gargrave, Malhamdale, Scar House, Harden Moor....

Of course the YDNP are going to promote cycling - its easier to get a grant for a new cycle lane then it is a footpath!

IMO its the parish councils who have way too much power when it comes to access. No user group is immune from being removed - Next thing you know Colonel Purple will move to the end of your fav run and then develop a dislike to the noise of your freehub.

4 of the ETRO's in the dales were instigated by the Parish council, The emphasis being on the 'E' These were meant to be 12 months - nearly 5 years ago!!

NIMBYS

sorry - ranting

And in today's paper, as you say, locals just love them.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/9481868.Quad_biker_drove_at_villager_in_green_lane_row/?ref=rss

It seems the incident was not just a spur of the moment but came about when locals pointed out that they were not allowed there. The guy says he goes green laning all the time. Nice to think we share the lanes with this sort of people. Doesn't make me feel nervous or threatened at all!

I am afraid I know of several run-ins with green laners, most often when they are on the wrong lane or doing illigal damage to the surface of lanes

C

Such a load of toss being spewed on this. Green lanes are roads that were never tarmacced, bridleways and footpaths are rights of way that were opened up under right to roam, neither has anything to do with the other. For every kilometer of green lane there are twenty of bridleway and footpath, puts the whinging in context really.

Mountain bikers quite rightly ignore the restriction to bridleways - that's how ramblers got their footpaths after all. Green lane bikers would love act the same, but the moment you have a number plate it gets a lot more perilous. It's not being in the right or not that makes it easy or not.

The depressing thing is how everyone's a rambler at heart. "Well I'm not doing any harm, but THEY shouldn't be here..." A phrase I've seen used here is "jealous of those having more fun". Quite.

You wait till the electric 4x4 and motorbike no NOISE.Is it a electric motorbike or a cycle all those juicy bridleways on a KTM/GASGAS/Beta etc bring it on.

Think the main problem is people don't realise that 4x4s can drive on these Byways etc...

Back in the summer I went activly looking for off road ROWs to drive down for fun, never had any problems mind, and met quick a few walkers.

If you paste this grid ref into google and zoom in on the Satellite view you'll see a BOAT that has been widened to 4 lanes by the 4x4 crowd on their way to drive the Gap in the Brecon Beacons
51.835141,-3.32602
It's the same trail widening that you see with MTBs and walkers, but more so. So right or wrong, they cause more damage and are correspondly more unpopular.

I might also add that the ridgeway near me has had motorised vehicles banned for a few years now and it's a much more pleasent place to ride and walk with the kids. So i'm happy that a few suffer restrictions so that that majority don't have to wade through knee deep puddles.

It does look fun though and banning them is the thin end of the wedge

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/9481868.Quad_biker_drove_at_villager_in_green_lane_row/?ref=rss

I was going to try to ride up Dacre Lane as part of an alternative route over to Settle. Perhaps not then...it's a FP isn't it?

I'm glad that I don't want to ride on the same trails as petrol heads and that they don't want to ride where I do either..

Chris - that is precisely the sort of behaviour that gets ALL parties backs up.

There is no place for it on any highway.

Idiots like that quad biker give all motorised users a bad name. He was in the wrong - apologise and move off. Mistakes are made, Man up and admit them!!

Closing lanes merely funnels use onto a decreasing number of alternative RoW.

With regards to widening - it happens, all users are guilty. Pockstones Moor was terrible for it due to one section. It was closed for a few months, the short section repaired and then reopened. All users happy.

Kettlewell has no legal lanes near there so get very little trail traffic

theres one up the road above troutbeck which leads on to a few others heading towards hawes

I ride Motorbikes and mountainbikes,

Firstly MX bikes are not allowed to ride green lanes

Trail Bikes are, providing they are Road registered, taxed and insured.

The problems came with the Ramblers Divide and conquer methodology and its been made worse for them as a result.....

Most of the People I knew who trailrode, dont do it any more, or if they do, its in a very different way now.......
Before you`d have a trailbike, tax it, insure it ride it on green lanes, the odd cheeky bridleway or lane that was in dispute over rights of way, but on the whole all legal and above board, some idiots, but you get that in all hobbies really.

Now the argument goes.....why bother having a legal, traceable road bike, or sticking to legal trails when you get so much grief over it anyway, with the risk of bike confiscation etc if caught.
Why not have a proper MX bike, which if you have to "make progress" out of there pretty sharpish is a far far better tool for the job, more fun, cheaper to buy, no tax, no insurance, no registration, so no tracability.....
People will give you hassle regardless so you may as well ride where you like.....

Not saying I completely agree with it, but I kind of understand its a case of "Be careful what you wish for"

To start with all the user groups were united in defence of the "rambliars" association and Gleam

Then gradually, they all split up because they really didnt understand that there was saftey in numbers, and didnt want to align themselves with 4x4`s or Motorcycles, when they were getting a hard time, they looked after themselves......

The TRF did warn that the Walkers (who have access to pretty much everything after right to roam) would not stop with 4x4s or Trail riders...... they`d be coming after Horses and MTBs next..... and lo and behold thats what is beginning to happen...

I'll keep riding / driving / pedalling regardless, but I'll just pick my time and place

Theres plenty of room for all of us to enjoy what we want, but the walkers want it all exclusively, regardless of the Impact they have on the ROW network (Which is far greater than that of any motorised traffic) look at the Trail armoring and repairs needed on walking trails, the time, money and effort expended on getting the materials up there, often needing Helicopter access for stone etc

But they ignore that impact, because it suits them too

+ another for Tiger

if your going to ban one then ban Everybody! (no one can Moan about anything then!

Oh Except having nothing to do and nowhere to go.

I am afraid I know of several run-ins with green laners

it takes two to tango you know & happens on perfectly legal routes too, mates reconed they got deliberately blocked by walkers almost every time they went for a ride down the Ridgeway (when it was legal to do so)

It's all about being considerate and sharing . Groups like GLEAM are full of selfish wealthy NIMBYs ..however... the trail riding community as a whole has plenty of inconsiderate idiots who need complaining about.IME the TRF are a responsible organisation both in the way that they ride and the way they defend their right to ride the few remaing UCR's and BOATS . I trail ride quietly but also relish the peace and tranquility of the countryside and do my utmost not to spoil other's enjoyment.

Taka - aye forgot about that

+1 cr500dom

amen

cr500dom ... ex Supermoto VD'er indeed

I just think it's a fair size Island we live on, let's not get too het up about a bunch of lads on bikes or 4x4s, at the end of the day they are pretty restricted already, they don't do masses of damage, non of it's permanent and we'll all be okay tomorrow. Nobody gets stressed about a Farmer ploughing a field.

(I might add my natural state is an aversion to both bikes and cars, I don't like them, they are noisy, slow, create ruts, massive puddles. basically they can cock right up my bike riding but it would be a bit selfish of me to get rid of them because I don't like it. Not put up or shut up! Look at the bigger picture beyond my own selfishness and Live and let live. )

They are pretty restricted already, let's not campaign to take way the little that is left. That just seems petty minded to me.

What if your a fatty or can't walk or ride should you be excluded?

Yours a cyclist who has no love of vehicles on my trails.

Just to set a few things;

Electrically powered motor bikes will make no difference under regulations and the law. With the NERC Act 2006 Parliament inserted many changes in other extant acts too. That included amending all acts (including the Road Traffic Act) that had previously referred to ‘motorised vehicles’ to now state ‘mechanically propelled vehicles’. That will now group motor vehicles with steam powered, electrical and all suchlike vehicles to be treat the same.

Most modern trail bikes you see are not riding legally. If only because of the number plate as the The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 states the size of number plates, the size and the font of the text and at 5 (5)(a) that “number plates must be mounted vertically or, where that is not reasonably practicable, in a position as close to the vertical as is reasonably practicable”. It also states that they should be “easily readable” which includes keeping them clean. Now obviously it is important that all this is done so that other users of the route could note a number and record that should they believe it is driven/ridden in an inappropriate way.

The petrol station at Kettlewell is en-route for most offroaders who ‘do’ the southern Dales as they include, by necessity, Littondale and Cray in their circuit.

Using a motorbike on a bridleway is illegal. Riding a push bike on a footpath is not. There is a very clear distinction in legislation between ‘it is an offence to ……’ and ‘are [not] allowed to’

Klumpy – I still can’t accept that you argue ‘Green lanes are roads that were never tarmacced’ then will not accept that when totaling up the kilometres of routes open to ride, you do not include the ‘ordinary road network’. You can’t have it both ways!

I am still waiting to see any evidence whatsoever that the government wants to restrict the routes open to cyclists. In fact there is much evidence to the contrary. I don’t agree with much of what the CTC does but the NERC Act was lobbied through by the Green Lanes Protection Group that was an alliance including RA, GLEAM, CLA and the CTC amongst others - so the CTC thought it right to restrict the recording of any more ways for motors to record public motor rights (on green lanes).

The bottom line is that motor vehicles on green lanes are more and more seen as being inappropriate and slowly are being legislated off them. This is because of the damage they are perceived to do, the damage they are seen to do to the wider environment and the detrimental affect it is perceived to do to the experience of other (non-motorized) users. Mountain bikes are most definitely not!

C

ChrisE - in much the same way that mountain bikers don't want to be restricted to roads & fireroads, & walkers don't want to be restricted to pavements, believe it or not some motorists don't want to be restricted to tarmac. 4 x 4 drivers & trail riders have already been subject to restriction of access to byways that were previously open to them.

Re: the number plates - are you aware that motorcycles do not have to have as large lettering as cars & if one has a 5 or 6 digit number (eg A12 XYZ) number then it is quite legal for you to have a pretty small plate.

I'm all in favour of enforcing existing laws & restrictions & maintaining routes to prevent damage, but please no further restrictions should be called for. Perhaps you should start looking at green lanes that are roads that have never been tarmaced over, it might brighten your outlook on the matter.

live in a National Park - we get lots of everything - MX, Trail Bikes, 4x4, MTB and squillions of walkers.

They all transgress on occasions, some days are worse than others.

Easiest thing would be to widen access rather than restrict, that dilutes the problem and dissipates the users.

There is a very active section of the RA that is moving against 4x4 and Trail/MX bikes. Very subtle shift in message recently from this to "wheeled traffic" adn that's us. They cite too many "cheeky trails", well done guys we are now being put into the same cohort as 4x4 and Trail/MX bikes.

I will be very upset if I lose hte ability to hit any number of bridleways and ride right from my front door. It's why I moved here.

Consideration and a bit of thought is all that's required.

At the risk of being boring, read the regulations. Motorcycle number plate text must be 64mm high, (cars normally 79mm). 64 is massive and easily readable if clean, mounted vertically and is ridden within the TRF code of conduct (ie 25mph max, on the clearest straightest way, slower on less safe routes (ha ha))

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/made

The only argument I hear is MTBs do damage, walkers have paths repaired by helicopters, walkers drive cars into the National Park, bla blah. That’s not really an argument why allowing offroad bikes and 4x4s on green lanes is a good thing. Has anyone got a standalone argument as to why allowing motors to use green lanes, for recreation is good for the rest of the population?

C

Chris - your attitude just gets me down.

Why is walking in the hills, mtbing, cycling in general any more beneficial to the population then walking to the shops. That is not an arguement. The only arguement against off road driving is erosion. The fact that they have illegal plates is moot - if the vehicle isn't roadworthy it shouldn't be on the road - end of.

Erosion is caused by all users - have you not seen the ground after any off road race - cycling / running / horse. I remember a conversation with a ROW officer a few years ago who hated mtbers. His point was that we leave ruts - ruts channel water - water erodes. Hard to argue against.

Well maintained and drained roads used sensibly do not erode.

Cyclists have no right to cycle on footpaths away from the road but only commit an offence where local by-laws or traffic regulation orders create such an offence. Cyclists can ride on bridleways, but not on countryside footpaths.

you're wrong - (although the work of art that is NERC seems to ignore this.)

IMO the NERC act was work of lobbying factions against the minority. A absis of the reclassification was proving historical use - yet left the interested parties no time to research.

No one mentioned proof of banning mtbers (isn't there a thread elsewhere on here ??) The point is that the act now makes it possible!!! - All it takes is one nervous NPA to get lobbied by the red sock brigade and NIMBYS and - bishbashboosh - you get a TRO.

 

Out of interest can someone educate me why some of our countryside enjoying community are known as "red socks" ..what's the origin?

Has anyone got a standalone argument as to why allowing motors to use green lanes, for recreation is good for the rest of the population?

In what way is *** for recreation good for the rest of the population?

*** - insert a hobby or pastime of your choice

[i]Out of interest can someone educate me why some of our countryside enjoying community are known as "red socks" ..what's the origin? [/i]

Lots of people enjoying the countryside while wearing red socks,.

HTH.

Cyclists have no right to cycle on footpaths away from the road but only commit an offence where local by-laws or traffic regulation orders create such an offence. Cyclists can ride on bridleways, but not on countryside footpaths.

You are right though, NERC was driven though by a huge majority who thought it as right. That’s how democracy works. There was even an amendment to have no exempt claims (rather than the cut-off date of 19 Jan 2005) however that was defeated. It would not normally have been defeated but the government had retained a large amount of Lords due to fear of being turned over on the ID cards debate later that evening so the government whips trooped through on division at the bell that night.

No exempt claims would have negated the need for Winchester which had a huge effect on BOAT claims in which the TRF dropped a massive clanger. As applicants in the process, DEFRA invited in the two people, one a TRF member and the other a senior TRF RoW exec to be named on the action as interested parties. As such they would have no liability for costs but crucially would (later) be able to appeal Winchester. The first didn’t reply but the latter sent a stupid sarcastic letter back going on about what a waste of paper the case would be. That decision cost them the right to appeal. Ever since the TRF have never told the members that and indeed bent the truth whn they tell members there was no way they could have appealed it. What they meant was there was no way because they lost that by their own choice!!

I am not a betting man (much too much a Yorkshireman for that!) but I would bet that in less than 10 years recreational motoring (offroading) in National Parks will be banned on all unsurfaced routes, on the grounds that it is not compatible with the statutory purposes of the Parks, leaving such routes open only to walkers, horses, cyclists and horse-drawn carts. Watch this space!

Incidentally did you see the Peak District Green Lanes Alliance was formed late last year and they seem to be making huge strides.

C

haters gonna hate

Just confirms to me my fears that some MTBsrs are as selfish today as the ramblers were in the past.

This forum needs a block list or a stackexchange style reputation system so commentards get downvotes and lose the ability to spout rhetoric

In the interests of balance for anti green lane activities people could visit LARA GB

http://www.laragb.org/

Not saying I agree with everything they say - they have an agenda to push as much as GLEAM.

Incidentally did you see the Peak District Green Lanes Alliance was formed late last year and they seem to be making huge strides.

Will look this up, we have green lanes all round us and I live in the Peak. NIMBYS - often people who have moved into the area - have already managed to close access to two popular trails for MX/Trials/4X4 but that did not stop several MX/Trials bikes passing me on both of them last week.

The biggest cause of erosion round here is walkers - just take a peek at the footpaths up and around Mam Tor, Kinder, Win Hill, etc - decades of being tramped by the vibram soled jack boot of the Ramblers Association membership!

And breath...

Roger http://pdgla.org.uk/about-the-alliance/

Nick, it's somewhat ironic that you think people who want to campaign for green lanes to be free only for walker, cycles and horses should be 'marked down' and loose the ability to post!

C

did you see the Peak District Green Lanes Alliance was formed late last year

No, PDGLA is headed by Dr Karen Hinkley, Prof Mark Everard & Roy Hattersley (the ex dep leader of the Labour Party). There are a number of MTBers are members too but obviously the more MTBers the better to keep a strong voice.

C

they are members of the alliance though no?

Nick, it's somewhat ironic that you think people who want to campaign for green lanes to be free only for walker, cycles and horses should be 'marked down' and loose the ability to post!

A stack exchange style system wouldn't allow an individual to prevent others posting. It would be the community based on the stuff said by the originator. So no, not ironic. more access for everyone on the trails IMO

access for EVERYONE! cos we dont Own this world (although some of us Think we do)

legal yes, right?

rogerthecat - Member
....
There is a very active section of the RA that is moving against 4x4 and Trail/MX bikes. Very subtle shift in message recently from this to "wheeled traffic" adn that's us. They cite too many "cheeky trails", well done guys we are now being put into the same cohort as 4x4 and Trail/MX bikes

yes but that isn't RA policy - but if those that ride MTB choose to align with motorised offroaders and maintain the disorganised (politically speaking) stance then those walkers with more extreme opinions will win through

RA policy (i believe) i addded the bold bit

[i]The Ramblers view is that motorised use of rights of way, for sport, is rarely appropriate and that vulnerable users - pedestrians, [b]cyclists[/b], equestrians and horse and carriage drivers - should be able to enjoy the rights of way network away from as much motor traffic as possible[/i]

[url] http://www.ramblers.org.uk/rights_of_way/knowledge_portal/vehicles_in_the_countryside.htm [/url]