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I've had an alu shim get badly corroded in a carbon road frame. Still didn't crack the frame though.
but you have asked them to remove it for you – they got it so far and it showed signs of fatigue/cracks – the damage was already done
We don't know this.
What frame is it (for the third time)?
We don’t know this.
Well by the time it was noticed we do, which I think is what that post is getting at, they can't undo the damage regardless of if they caused it, the op did or riding with misaligned valve stems and tyre logos did.
But yes, you're absolutely right. There is no way to know when the damage occurred, that works all ways though.
but you have asked them to remove it for you
No we didn't, we asked them to look at a saggy post. They said that it was stuck but that they could sort it so we let them get on with it. If they can't remove it then stop. No they can't undo the damage so they should be looking to make good.
And as I said in the OP I'm not mentioning names yet whilst we see what they can do. Naming the frame gives it away somewhat. It's a carbon frame.
Seat tubes aren’t straight all the way down, they taper out toward the bb, so I imagine when the post has corroded and furred up and the shop got it spinning it was ok, but when they’ve tried to pull up, the now slightly wider post was being pulled into the narrower taper, hence the cracks.
So does this mean the frame was, for want of a better word, broken, because it had a knackered post in it or is there a way of it coming out without causing damage?
So they’re saying the stress lines in the carbon are a result of the corrosion. Not the removal. They’re not saying we broke it but it’s your fault, they’re saying you broke it and it’s your fault.
If the expanded seatpost, due to corrosion, has caused the fractures then all they did was notice them and not cause them....
So does this mean the frame was, for want of a better word, broken, because it had a knackered post in it
Maybe, depends how and why the post is knackered.
or is there a way of it coming out without causing damage?
See above, often you can get them out, but not always and just because of looks like you've done it without causing damage doesn't mean you have. It's harder but not impossible with carbon because a lot of the things you'd use to dissolve all the salts can be worse for the carbon than the gunk you're trying to get rid of, Otoh you often can't see that so the assumption is its OK and come out without damaging the frame.
So Mrs Hoppy has spoken to them and the shop have confirmed that they "broke" the frame pulling the post out but that they couldn't do anything else. They're going away to talk with the manufacturer to see what they can do about a better offer.
I’ve had an alu shim get badly corroded in a carbon road frame. Still didn’t crack the frame though.
A friend has a cracked steerer tube from corrosion in the headset - Alu frame. If you zoom in you can see the cracks. He has implemented a temporary repair!
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52085237470_86eb4442ef.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52085237470_86eb4442ef.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2nmAstG ]Cracked steerer tube[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
As an aside though op, why did you take the whole bike in to the lbs, given you're handy enough to build your own, without even trying to check the cable/housing wasn't the problem given the tension seemed to fix it for a while at a time?
He has implemented a temporary repair!
They'll be rusted to the outside in a week and push the cracks back. Very clever.
We need pictures!
Why does everyone that posts these threads always miss out key information. What damn bike is it and did you ever get it serviced? 😂
The bike shop has likely clamped the post in a vice and twisted the frame to try and get it loose. This has resulted in a broken frame.
They really really should have asked you if it was ok to go at it like they did. There are other ways of removing a seat post.
They've admitted they broke it I would be expecting a replacement.
As an aside though op, why did you take the whole bike in to the lbs, given you’re handy enough to build your own, without even trying to check the cable/housing wasn’t the problem given the tension seemed to fix it for a while at a time?
I didn't, I can only deal with what I get told about and as far as I was aware it was sorted on the last ride we did together but it was playing up at SoS last weekend apparently so Mrs Hoppy went in to speak to them whilst in town on Monday as adjusting cables wasn't fixing it. They said it sounded like the cartridge was gone and needed replacing.
Short of going in to see what they meant by it spins but doesn't go up or down yesterday I've been bypassed.
It is all unfortunately a bit "for the want of a nail"
I think in the same position I might feel the same, ie please let me be pissed off with someone else so I don't have time to think about the hundreds of opportunities I had to make sure this never happened. The world needs a spin your seat post day.
So Mrs Hoppy has spoken to them and the shop have confirmed that they “broke” the frame pulling the post out but that they couldn’t do anything else. They’re going away to talk with the manufacturer to see what they can do about a better offer.
Hopefully the shop will use this as a valuable learning experience when it comes to communication with the customer.
If they do then the business might survive. If they don't then they'll probably go out of business blaming everyone but themselves. No doubt with their mates telling them they're right and it's their customers who are wrong.
The world needs a spin your seat post day.
I'm sure there's a national day for it. There's one for everything else. Heck we've even got national lady sat on a chair for the first time four day weekend next month.
I can only deal with what I get told
Ah so it's [s] your wife's fault [/s] all your fault you bloody monster! after all 😉
Surely like most business and tradesmen they’ll have insurance cover for stuff like this? I’m a tradesman and if I substantially knacker someone’s property I have insurance cover to make good.
Regarding the spinning; if the post was properly stuck in there, I bet they’ve put the seatpost head in a vice and used the frame as leverage to get it moving and pull it out (I’ve seen this done in a bike shop, so not my imagination…) and then twisted/damaged the key ways causing it to spin within the outer seatpost.
This kind of pressure would likely cause stress marks if enough torque is applied.
Of course, I’m not saying this definitely happened but stress marks means there’s been stress of some sort. 🤷♂️
The bike shop has likely clamped the post in a vice and twisted the frame to try and get it loose. This has resulted in a broken frame.
Not always easy with a dropper unless you have a portion of the lower part of the post exposed as you will break the post if you try and twist the top part.
Which is my point exactly.
mainly because I’d be expecting it to be carbon fibre at that cost
Ok, I retract my comment but the OP didn’t mention it being carbon, my 1st thought was Ti or something.
Yeah, the shop should’ve at least consulted the OP.
I do all my own spannering so perhaps people who actually use LBS mechanics are better-placed to have an opinion here. Sounds ridiculous to me.
I’m all for supporting bike shops in principle, but unless they are good for preventing this sort of major mechanical mishap, what are they good for?
It’d be like if you took your car in for an oil change and they just accidentally set the engine on fire (because oil is slightly flammable).
As above, i do all my own stuff, how often have you had that seatpost removed in 4 years, i tend to have my dropper out and cleaned every month or so, it's amazing how water gets in there and contaminates, i also like cleaning out the cable as it also gets a little messy, all in all it's a ten minute job, reapply some carbon paste and it's all good.
Carbon and Aluminium aren't friends over time on bikes, seatposts always get scratched up going in, allowing corrosion to occur, and weaken the carbon fibre resin, i've also never had a dropper that didn't need a service at least once every 6 months, those things suck in the crap!
The seat post man doesn't guarantee removal of a stuck post. So you could of been needing a frame at some point anyway.
He claims 100% customer satisfaction (which I don't doubt) but he asks you get in touch first so he can assess the job.
If your turned down, you won't be a customer so you won't go on his stats...
Ironically his two last posts on Facebook are knackered carbon frames. One is cracked from the oxidisation swelling the frame the other from spinning it in a vice before he got it probablly....
I do sympathise with you and the shop however. Shit situation. I hope you can both work something out.
There are some very supercilious replies on this aren't there.
Seems like OP admits his maintenance has been naff, but has taken it to a shop and asked them if they can fix the post, they can't but without consultation try to rip it out, and break frame in process.
OP seems to have been honest, LBS seem to be honest, no need for anybody on here to be gobby about it, LBS supplying a frame at a bit (20-35%) off trade seems fair. 3.5k frame, 30% margin, 2.3k trade, 1.8k for new frame, everybody learns a valuable life lesson and life goes on. With nobody being uppity or gobby apart from inexplicably a few on here.
PS: OP please give your seatposts a little love.
LBS supplying a frame at a bit (20-35%) off trade seems fair
Nope. Bike shop claims to be able to fix it, screws up, breaks something and doesn't want to pay for their screw up.
WTF? Some of these replies are mind-boggling! You take your bike to a professional, it might not be repairable but if they attempt (their choice!) and break it, it’s on them obviously. How would you react if the same thing happened in a garage to your, say, £20k car?! Oh, never mind, I’ll suck it up 😂 If they don’t have the appropriate insurance to cover it it’s 100% on them, not the customer.
Sorry folks but the liability is with the shop. They owe you an equivalent frame at no cost to you. Check the "which" site for guidence but this is how it is to me.
If they had said " we might be able to fix it but we might break it" it would be different.
Don't take excuses or anything to do with the manufacturer. They broke it they fix it
They'd said they might have to damage the seatpost, that was fair enough as it was dodgy, nothing said about the frame.
And in my defence I'm not a complete maintenance numpty. We're running 5 bikes with droppers and this is the only one that has an issue.
https://www.merlincycles.com/blog/looking-after-your-carbon-road-bike/
WD40 means Water Dispersant 40. It's not a lubricant. And according to Merlin Cycles should never be put on Carbon Fibre.
It's a load of chemicals which you're introducing to carbon fibre strands which have been glued together with more chemical. Chemicals react with other chemicals. That's why you've got stress fractures. Their fault. End of discussion.
So lets assume for a second the OP goes in with
"No, not having that, it's 100% on you..."
LBS says. "sorry sir, lack of maintenance means it's on you"
What next ? It's all well and good a few people on the internet saying it's the LBS fault... but that is unlikely to change the shops mind ?
Some people seem to treat bikeshops and their mates as being the same thing. If I gave my bike to a friend to fix and he broke the frame then I'd just have to suck it up.
If I gave it to a bike shop, regardless of how slack I was with maintenance, and they broke the frame I don't have to suck it up. That's why we use bike shops instead of just getting our mates to fix our bikes.
As others have said, they should have insurance for this sort of thing. If the bikeshop can't make this right they are effectively just some guys with some tools and not a proper business.
Most of us are perfectly capable of breaking our own shit while trying to fix it. We shouldn't have to pay for someone's salary, tools, training, electricity, business rates, and (most importantly) insurance so that they can break it instead.
What next ? It’s all well and good a few people on the internet saying it’s the LBS fault… but that is unlikely to change the shops mind ?
Small claims court.
And name and shame, of course.
IMHO
Not totally the shops fault for breaking it, that's the result of the lack of maintenance on the OP's part coupled to the shop's attempts to remove it.
It is the shop's fault though for not advising the OP about the issue properly; somewhere up there it's reported they said 'it's seized but we can sort it' - not ....we can sort it but it might break the frame, do you want us to carry on or give it back or send it to the seatpost guy or......?
Liability shared I think, but what share? 20% off a new frame sounds reasonable to me - remember at the end of the day the OP will then have had four years use out of the original frame, which has a value in itself, and then will have a new frame rather than an old frame with a seized up seattube.
Out of goodwill, shop should transfer all the bits over though, not charge for that.
It’d be like if you took your car in for an oil change and they just accidentally set the engine on fire (because oil is slightly flammable).
More that the oil filter was corroded onto the sump and the threads were damaged when getting it off.
As haggis pointed out WD40 is a water dispersant not a lubricant. I'd be questioning their skills and experience in removing stuck seatposts using this method. Or were they just having a go and the red mist set in when it was obviously stuck fast.
Not totally the shops fault for breaking it, that’s the result of the lack of maintenance on the OP’s part coupled to the shop’s attempts to remove it.
Sorry, but it is. If we can only expect to get our frames back in one piece if the bikes are perfectly maintained then I'm really struggling to see what the point in bike shops even is.
They are not our mates with tools who happen to be good at fixing bikes. They are a business who should have insurance for this sort of thing.
As you said, if the shop had said 'We might break the frame getting this post out' then it's a completely different situation.
The shop should have used this as an expensive lesson in communicating clearly with the customer instead of trying to avoid the costs themselves. It sounds like they're not going to learn this lesson and they are going to continue creating unhappy customers until they go out of business.
I would take my bike to my lbs to avoid this situation as it's exactly this sort of situation where my own hamfistery would end up in this result
Random aside - as a bike shop (or a garage dealing with cars come to that), is there an insurance policy you could have for employee **** ups? I'm guessing its a third party liability insurance and most have it. How easy is it to claim on though? Refusal to 'do the right thing' I guess could be either that they are totally confident they did nothing wrong or the financial impact of making it right being business critical financially.
All up I think I'm on the customer/ops side here. Mainly because of the lack of communication. I've popped enough stuck seatposts to know when I'm getting into frame wrecking territory. That's because I've got some experience, a brain and some common sense. The key point about most bike shop employees is they are not engineers. Or even close. They get paid way too little for that (and we are not prepared to pay better to get over qualified engineers replacing inner tubes so that every now and again a person with the right understandings is in place for the rare job). So if you have a non-engineer (with a noddy bit of cytec paper or not) with little common sense, experience or interpersonal skills these things happen. Most of them don't know what they don't know. Most have never layed up a bit of carbon, tig welded a bit of aluminium alloy or used a lathe. Their material science knowledge comes from drinking up the bike mag coolaid.
They should have communicated the risks of getting more physical to continuing to attempt to remove.
They should have explored the possibility of deliberately destroying the post and cutting it out to protect the frame and given you that as an option.
They should have given you the option of just leaving as was as a least worst option.
Total aside...a reminder to us all. Attend to your shafts. No one enjoys a dry shaft/hole interface, especially if it's a long term relationship.
To me it comes down to the telephone conversation.
Did they mention any damage to the frame at that point?
Did they mention the consequences of trying to release a seat post?
Was the only contact back to say that the frame was damaged by email?
Especially on the last point that would sound alarm bells with me. At the very best its incredibly poor customer service
To me the first convo should have been. "The frame looks visually ok (or damaged as they appear to be saying) but your post is stuck. We can try getting it out but the consequence is that it could damage the frame beyond repair". "How would you like us to proceed customer"
I am no expert on getting post out, but surly you get to the point of cutting the post out before damaging the frame?
I am no expert on getting post out, but surly you get to the point of cutting the post out before damaging the frame?
Not really. Generally you just try more and more brute force!
However... if it gets to the point where you've clamped a bloody great crowbar into the top to get more leverage or you're hanging off the frame like a gorilla, you would at that point pause and reconsider all the options since it's fairly obviously knackered.
And at that point, i would call the customer and say: "here's where we're at..." and describe the options. Mostly because at that point, it's all the customer's fault and you can sell them a new seatpost and some carbon paste...
Not totally the shops fault for breaking it,
Some jaw dropping comments on this thread, like this one. WTF? You would not say this if it was your frame they broke, that's a certainty.
In what world isn't it totally their fault? The ONLY get out with stuff like this is that they call you and ask you to come into the shop and they get you to sign some sort of waiver to say that you understand the risk involved of them trying to remove the seatpost and that you're happy that they have fully explained all the risks involved. Without this they haven't got a leg to stand on and probably know this deep down. They sound like chancers to me.
A telephone call, unless recorded wouldn't be enough either. As they did not do this and just went ahead and obviously used excessive force then its on them completely.
Frame before they touched it - fine.
Frame after they attempted to remove seatpost - donald ducked = 100% their fault. Simple as that.
I wouldn't be willing to pay anything towards a new frame. That's all on them.
The ones saying its the owners fault for not looking after the bike is just stupid. So that means when you take your car for a service and they discover it needs additional work which they do and say set fire to your car doing the work - this is partly your fault because you 'didn't maintain the car properly' is laughable and just lacks the most basic of thinking.
Frame before they touched it – fine.Frame after they attempted to remove seatpost – donald ducked = 100% their fault. Simple as that.
Hmm.
Frame before they touched it - [b]appeared[/b] fine...
Slightly playing devil's advocate but it clearly wasn't fine because the seatpost was already seized in place. Whether that had caused any additional unseen damage, internal weakening of the frame is probably very difficult to prove one way or the other.
Quite often you only discover problems when you come to do what (on the face of it) is routine maintenance. The shop almost certainly made it worse but that's not to say the frame wasn't already screwed - just much less obviously so.
That to a great extent yes...