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Mrs hoppy has been having issues with her dropper not holding properly. I'd adjusted the cable tension but it would stop working after a while and start to sag.
She took it to the LBS (who supplied the bike) and they thought it was the cartridge which needed replacing. She left it with them to sort out. We got a call saying the post was stuck so they'd put some WD40 on to soak and would have another go. Next day it was spinning but not moving up or down, I went down to speak to them and they said they thought the actuator might have been binding (???) but they'd go back to look at it later. I got an email today to say that they'd got it 80mm up but the frame was showing stress cracks and is now junk.
As it was corrosion it's not warranty apparently, so we have to buy a new one. They've spoken to the manufacturer who have offered 20% off a new frame.
But the new frame is £3.5K, so for them breaking our frame we have to cough up £2.8k. Given I gave them a working bike except for the seat post and they've borked it by being crack handed that feels like a bit of a punch in the dick. I'm pissed off they've broken the frame when if they said couldn't safely do it or were struggling I'd have sent it to the seat post guy for £110.
AIBU to expect them to be doing better on this?
No names, until I've set the Mrs on them, god help them.
As it was corrosion
As in the seatpost was stuck in the frame because of corrosion? If so, that is down to you I reckon (sorry)
Given I gave them a working bike except for the seat post and they’ve borked it by being crack handed that feels like a bit of a punch in the dick.
Careful with this bit, you gave them a bike that hadn't been maintained properly so had 2 parts (one of which you were asking them to work on) fused together. However . . . they were carrying out the work and I assume there were no concerns raised on their part about possibly writing off the frame? Given that there are non-destructive methods for seatpost removal I'm struggling to see how they are not liable for the replacement
Also, the frame might be repairable - not by that shop of course
Yeah, without being able to see what the damage is and how it might have been caused I'd have to defer judgement.
Somewhat unusually I'm not wholly in line with what IHN says.
True that the corrosion is unfortunate, but before the bike shop stepped in he had a working bike with a bust seat post.he now has a bust bike...
..presumably still with a bust seat post.
I wouldn't expect a 3.5K frame to corrode. Ever.
Unhelpful, soz.
It's a good reminder to jiggle all my seatposts again though.
As in the seatpost was stuck in the frame because of corrosion? If so, that is down to you I reckon (sorry)
If a shop is handling a bike in a way that might write it off, I'd expect at a minimum they'd contact the customer and discuss the risks with them first.
I know personally, I'd rather have a £3k frame with a knackered seat post, than have a knackered £3k frame.
What bike/frame out of interest?
If I took my car to the garage to repair a seized engine because I'd forgotten to put oil in it, I'd be expecting a bill for an engine and labour. I wouldn't expect to have to replace the bodyshell because they had difficulty removing the engine due to corrosion and decided to rip it out using a forklift.
She took it to the LBS (who supplied the bike)
The question I'd be asking is, who assembled the bike?
If the bike shop assembled it, how long has it been since she took delivery?
Even if the seat post was installed by MrsHoppy, the bike shop shouldn't be writing off frames trying to disassemble them. If it gets to that stage, I'd want written permission from the customer before I started doing anything that might damage the frame.
Small claims court?
Carbon frame I'm assuming.
I reckon you need to have a chat about them either claiming on their own insurance or sucking up the cost - unless you were warned in advance of course?
The bike was assembled by them, however, my same age bike that I put together with appropriate carbon paste is fine now 4 years on.
Yes I should have checked more frequently but well assembled it shouldn't have got that bad and they should know enough not to stress fracture the frame. Certainly 20% doesn't feel like a fair split of responsibility, I'd get nearly that off just for being a member of the local club.
This is their fault, no question.
Stuck seatposts are a common enough thing that everyone should know about them. I've done a fair few myself on my own bikes. A bike shop mechanic should know all the tricks, that's the point of taking it to a bike shop. By taking on the job of removing it they should have accepted the risk of damaging it. Or, if they weren't confident, they should have refused the job.
As above, if you take your car in to have a cam belt changed, and they get it wrong and smash the engine, you wouldn't expect them to just wheel it back over to you with a post-it on the steering wheel saying 'Sorry!'
Regarding IHN's post, you wouldn't expect them to free up the post for free if you'd let it corrode; and if you'd asked them to free the post they should have discussed the risk of destroying the post. But there's no way that they should expect you to foot the bill if THEY break the frame.
Have you seen the damage, or any idea how its been caused?
I think if they were going to undertake something potentially catastrophic then i would like to have been consulted and my permission obtained.
Yes it's a carbon front triangle so it'll be galvanic bonding. They got it spinning but have caused stress fractures moving it up but not removing it. They did not ask whether I was happy to risk the frame being damaged, if that was where they were going I'd have gone to seatpost guy.
Who's the manufacturer?
If Spesh or Trek, you'd do well to contact them directly. I expect they'd offer (a lot) more than 20% in the circumstances. Probably a replacement frame.
They owe you a new frame.
They are the experts - before trying to get the seatpost out of the frame they should have assessed if they could do it without breaking the frame. If YES then you go ahead and remove the seatpost. If NO then you call the customer and explain.
They did the assessment, decided it would be OK so went ahead. They were wrong and they've now busted your frame.
They owe you a new frame.
End of... (I hate that phrase but it fits here).
I wouldn’t expect a 3.5K frame to corrode.
mainly because I'd be expecting it to be carbon fibre at that cost
If they haven't had the discussion that they could bork the frame surely it's on them.
Related experience - I've taken Mrs Epic's 25 year old Giant MTB to the LBS cos it needs a new BB. But the BB is seized cos it's been in there for 25 years. The LBS rang me up and had a conversation that getting the BB out is a challenge, they might get one side out but not the other, and potentially they could bork the frame. And a discussion about the economics about the labour cost vs the value of an old frame.
So if a shop can do that for a frame that is worth maybe 80£, you'd expect a shop to do it for 3.5k£
Carbon alloy interface can cause galvanic corrosion if you don't use sufficient quantities of carbon paste. I'd kinda assumed that they'd done it better than they had, with a dropper post there's no real reason to move it which can lead to a bit of complacency.
Even if (and let's be clear, I'm not saying this should happen at all) you accepted their offer, I'd be expecting the 20% off' to be off their cost price, and hope they'd not be looking to profit in any way from the frame sale, so the price to you should be considerably less than 20% off list.
So to check I understand your post:
The seat post was ceased in place
This was caused by corrosion due to lack of maintenance.
There are stress fractures in the frame.
The bike shop have removed the post
Found it was corroded
And told you "The corrosion has caused stress fractures in the frame."
Whilst I'm happy to accept they might have knackered the frame by removing the post it's also entirely possible - and completely in line with the above - the damage isn't a result of the post being removed, it's a result a result of the corrosion which stuck it there, which is a result of poor maintenance. Now one is free from the other they can see the problem, that's not the same as causing the problem.
Without actually seeing the damage you've no way to tell. without knowing what they've done to relocate post you've no way to tell.
Ultimately, you took it to them with a ceased seat tube and seat post. They've isolated the problem and told you yep it's got a broken seat tube and seat post. It's not like they're saying the seat post was stuck and your headtube is borked from removing it.
TLDR: if you haven't already, wait until you've seen it before you decide between reaching for the pitchfork or the sheepish grin.
dangeourbrain
Full Member
So to be check I understand your post:The seat post was ceased in place
This was caused by corrosion due to lack of maintenance.
Yes, potentially some liability on me for not checking it more frequently.
The corrosion has caused stress fractures in the frame.
The bike shop have removed the post
Found it was corroded
And told you “The corrosion has caused stress fractures in the frame.”
No, what they've said is "We managed to move the post about 80mm out of the bike but we have noticed stress lines in the carbon , so unfortunately this looks like the end of the frame. As this was due to the seat post not being removed for a long period of time and becoming corroded / seized it would not be classed as a manufacturing fault in the carbon . ". And that's in a frame that was fine yesterday.
I don't dispute it's not a manufacturing fault, it's a workshop balls up.
Even if (and let’s be clear, I’m not saying this should happen at all) you accepted their offer, I’d be expecting the 20% off’ to be off their cost price, and hope they’d not be looking to profit in any way from the frame sale, so the price to you should be considerably less than 20% off list.
This. And it should be considered the option of absolute last resort.
If they haven’t had the discussion that they could bork the frame surely it’s on them.
Also this.
Even if (and let’s be clear, I’m not saying this should happen at all) you accepted their offer, I’d be expecting the 20% off’ to be off their cost price, and hope they’d not be looking to profit in any way from the frame sale, so the price to you should be considerably less than 20% off list.
We've had 4 years use of it and there potentially is some liability on us over checking, so I can see they might try to not give us a free frame but 20% off list seems a bit off even as a starting point.
what frame is it?
And that’s in a frame that was fine yesterday
No, that's in a frame that looked fine yesterday. It might have been fine, it might not, but with a seat post stuck in it you and they couldn't tell.
we have noticed stress lines in the carbon , so unfortunately this looks like the end of the frame. As this was due to the seat post not being removed for a long period of time and becoming corroded / seized it
So they're saying the stress lines in the carbon are a result of the corrosion. Not the removal. They're not saying we broke it but it's your fault, they're saying you broke it and it's your fault.
They might be right equally they might be be trying to pull a fast one but from the statement alone you really can't tell.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just wait until you've seen the problem before you decide on the cause and who is to blame.
(eg the lines might have been under the seat post collar so until the post lifted and the collar could be moved, not visible)
Similar(ish) situation. Mate buys a bike second hand. We're out and the seatpost bends backwards and breaks the frame. It turns out some Rsole had taken the bike for a 'test run' and swapped out the post for a sawn off one. The small bike shop, well known in this parish, very honourably replaced the frame. That's what can happen.
(eg the lines might have been under the seat post collar so until the post lifted and the collar could be moved, not visible)
Except that was all visible yesterday and fine. They've not been able to remove it so it's not internal, so this is new external stress cracking. It's on them.
It’s a good reminder to jiggle all my seatposts again though.
+1, I wasnt even aware this was a thing
“We managed to move the post about 80mm out of the bike but we have noticed stress lines in the carbon , so unfortunately this looks like the end of the frame. As this was due to the seat post not being removed for a long period of time and becoming corroded / seized it would not be classed as a manufacturing fault in the carbon . “
This to me reads to me that in moving the post they saw the stress lines, not that moving the post caused the stress lines.
No, that’s in a frame that looked fine yesterday. It might have been fine, it might not, but with a seat post stuck in it you and they couldn’t tell.
This is very true. Just because it looked fine from the outside doesn't mean it was.
Again, the seat collar could be lifted before as the seatpost wasn't sitting flush and they've not removed the seatpost so they haven't exposed anything.
So they’re saying the stress lines in the carbon are a result of the corrosion. Not the removal.
That's deliberate ambiguity, they are trying to wriggle out.
Also, the frame's probably not a write-off - carbon is repairable. Hell, at those prices I'd wrap the seat tube in Fiberfix.
so a seized seatpost - shop tried to remove it for you, and in doing so its caused a crack?
what exactly would anyone else have done? assuming its a decent shop they will have all the tools and knowledge to remove it as best they can
you have failed to maintain your bike, and now blaming the shop for removal of said seatpost thats seized? how is it there fault? if you asked me to remove it and it cracked would you expect me to cough up the money for it due to your lack of maintenance? im not sure how they could physically do anything different if it started to show signs of cracks/stress at 80mm, no matter what anyone would have done it would have the same result, how were you going to get the seatpost serviced if its stuck in the frame? or if it needed a new cable etc?
its ultimately your fault for not maintaining it, yes id be gutted, and hopefully the shop can give you a better discount but its your fault for letting it get like that
if a little harsh im sorry but thats how i see it
Target have been very helpful in a chat I had with them. But they can't give sensible quote yet but their numbers, whilst better than new frame are still quite ouchy.
It’s a good reminder to jiggle all my seatposts again though.
Fnnnar.
Really hard to offer any opinion without seeing the issue and hearing more.
This could end up being a very expensive reminded to jiggle your post more
(repeat fnnnar).
Could these just be paint cracks ?
and yes get target to fix it, you wont ever know its been done - but it wont be cheap and possibly a long wait!
Could the corrosion itself cause the damage via expansion and then contraction once the post moved? I'm just thinking of how reinforcing in concrete can corrode and cause cracks. I can see that that might only become visible once the forces were removed.
It comes down to whether or not there is anyway the post could have been removed without damage. Perhaps asking exactly how they attempted to remove it and comparing that with how a specialist would have approached it.
I think you said they started with WD40, that would make me wonder if they really knew what they were doing. Seems to be used for everything it isn't intended for.
what exactly would anyone else have done? assuming its a decent shop they will have all the tools and knowledge to remove it as best they can
What I'd expect them to do is say, we can't remove this without damaging the frame. Mrs Hoppy can then either carry on using it with a seatpost she need to constantly fettle the cable tension on or we can send it to the seatpost guy who might be able to do something. I expect to be given the option of bailing out before it gets damaged, I don't expect them to Wang it about until it cracks.
If I'd been doing it or one of my riding buddies then yes it's on me, but them saying to the Mrs "drop it in for us to look at it" has now landed with a written off frame.
Hambini talks about the potential for the galvanic corrosion of bonded aluminium bb inserts in carbon frames.
I acceot he is marmite but what he says makes sense, and if so a lot of frames could be vulnerable to this as the corrosion on the aluminium tube forces the carbon apart a little like freeze-thaw action of water splitting rocks.
mrhoppy
Full Member
what exactly would anyone else have done? assuming its a decent shop they will have all the tools and knowledge to remove it as best they canWhat I’d expect them to do is say, we can’t remove this without damaging the frame. Mrs Hoppy can then either carry on using it with a seatpost she need to constantly fettle the cable tension on or we can send it to the seatpost guy who might be able to do something. I expect to be given the option of bailing out before it gets damaged, I don’t expect them to Wang it about until it cracks.
If I’d been doing it or one of my riding buddies then yes it’s on me, but them saying to the Mrs “drop it in for us to look at it” has now landed with a written off frame.
but you have asked them to remove it for you - they got it so far and it showed signs of fatigue/cracks - the damage was already done - you left it with them to remove, they tried to remove it and it cracked - i cant really understand what you expected them todo? have them ring/video you as they slowly tried to remove it incase it cracked?
sorry not for me this one im usually sympathetic but it sounds like youve not touched it since the day you built it up (some years ago im guessing) so theres sadly really only yourself to blame on this one
i'd still be mega annoyed, dont get me wrong, and also looking at someone to blame.....
Could the corrosion itself cause the damage via expansion and then contraction once the post moved?
Possibly, its going a long way back since I did any of this stuff but iirc...
galvanic corrosion between alu and cf tends to involve contamination too, without them oxides on the alu prevent it, anodising can prevent it, epoxy on the carbon can also prevent it.
Salt [water], detergents and so on can break those down, allowing [and accelerating] the electrolysis to happen. They also have a habit of being corrosive in their own right and can deposit crystaline salts. Those crystals form in the gap and expand in it, more often than not that's why things get stuck not cf/alu corrosion, things like AlCl3 (white dusty crystals, like you often find on alu seat posts oh and mildly corrosive) forming in the gap.
That’s deliberate ambiguity, they are trying to wriggle out.
As I say, could be a wriggle, could be entirely true.