If you'd asked me a couple of months ago, I'd have said "Yes! Very important!" for lots of reasons.....
Now I have a bike that, if I sit and analyze it, has soft forks, too-narrow-for-me bars, a slightly low front end, and cheap plasticky shifters and brakes.
And you know what? I've just spent the weekend riding it pretty hard and as soon as I point it downhill I simply don't notice any of that.....It just works.
Which is very odd. I like a well set-up bike. I like to faff. And I must resist it this time because it's pointless.... (Save for a stronger fork spring for t'Alps...maybe....I'm not even sure about that)
Or have I been barking up the wrong tree for all this time?
Probably not but its a good way to justify extra spending.
It just works.
Then it's well set up for you.
Have I missed something ?
Which spring do you have in the forks at the mo? I will be getting rid of an x-firm Pike spring pretty soon hopefully.
I changed the shifters, tyres and saddle on my Pitch, nowt wrong with the brakes though imo.
Then it's well set up for you.
No, it's not. That's the thing. Fork is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too soft and I like wider bars....
But then again maybe you're right.
I dunno any more.
Help.
Grumm - Just the standard medium, whitch with me well over 15st in riding kit is silly soft. In theory. Arrgghh.
Exactly trailmonkey.
Just sounds like you (PP) didn't know what was best for you. 🙂
PeterPoddy - Member
and I like wider bars....
Obviously not!
Set Up has nothing to do with being sold/buying products either, its's simply how you set them up, e.g saddle angle/height, brake lever position etc, and IMO is the most important thing once you have a reasonably capable bike, more important than the branding on individual components.
Hmm well I found the x-firm too firm for me at around 16 stone without camelbak. The recommendations seem way out to me.
I did notice the steering felt a bit sharper when I got the stiffer spring though, and the front end seemed to pull up a little easier.
Depends where you're riding, what you're riding and for how long. If you were hammering alpine descents all day, or doing a solo 24 hour race, then things that might not annoy you so much on a blat round your local woods will become really important.
Psychologically, it's also really nice to ride a bike that's set up how you want it, and well-maintained. My bike has a creaky bottom bracket at the moment which really annoys me as I feel like something's not working properly, even though it makes naff all difference to the performance.
IMO - If you just leave it alone, you get used to the way it is and adapt your riding style.
It amazes me how much adjustment you get on a set of forks, surely you just need two setting - 'fat' and 'skinny'.
You quickly get used to pretty much anything. The only thing is that getting stuff just right can make the bike ride better though more often than not, it's just our perception that affects the way that we ride stuff...
Obviously not!
Yes, I'm beginning to think that now...
Set Up has nothing to do with being sold/buying products either, its's simply how you set them up, e.g saddle angle/height, brake lever position etc, and IMO is the most important thing once you have a reasonably capable bike, more important than the branding on individual components.
Egggg-zakkkly.
(Come to think of it, I haven't got the saddle position right either, but that's no matter)
But that's the thing. There's things that I KNOW aren't set up right, but it's not bothering me....That's the odd part
Try having kids - then you never have time to get things just right and learn to ride your bike pretty much however it's set up - at least, that's what I'm finding 🙂
in 90% of peoples hands it wont matter , they will fall off none the less
in the 10% window set up can be the difference between winning and loosing
If you were riding a grand tour, then set up would surely be crucial. Just for playing in the woods though......as long as the bike is the right size and it all works, then no probs.
what trail rat said but more like 98-2%
My take? If you think it's good now, think how much better it'll be once it's *right*.
As above, you can get used to anything, and if you're not noticing it when riding, then it means you're simply concentrating on what you're doing, BUT, the every fact you're asking the question means it ain't right, and it will begin to bug you.
I've long thought that way too many folk are really anal about their bike setup. I can't count the amount of times I've had to listen to my fellow riders whine on about how a tiny issue with their bike has "ruined their ride".
Stuff along the lines of
[i]"that last climb would have been easy but I think my saddle is a couple of mil too far forward on the rails"[/i]
or
[i]"I had a bit of a crap ride today, think my rebound was a bit too fast"[/i]
or
[i]"the topout clunk was putting me off on that last downhill"[/i]
or
[i]"I would have kept up with you on that last bit of singletrack but the anodising on my cable end caps isn't an exact match for the colour of the aftermarket bolts on my brake levers"[/i].
Occassionally it comes across as if the bike itself is the only thing that one can enjoy out in the hills, and if everything isn't [i]just so[/i] there is no possibility of succesfully extracting any reward from the act of riding.
And internally as I listen to it, all I can think is [i]"cease your foul whining and just ride your sodding bike."[/i]
If you were riding a grand tour, then set up would surely be crucial
That's very true, and I've got some experience of that, but 2 40k+ rides over the weekend were fine.
The thing is, there is no 'right', the magazines don't know how to set up YOUR controls, there's no scientific way of creating the perfect set-up, you say it's not bothering you, which suggests that you have in fact stumbled towards the most comfortable setup for you!
oh but it could be so much better 😉
grumm - depends how you ride! I find an X-firm too soft at times and weight 2st less than you.
you say it's not bothering you, which suggests that you have in fact stumbled towards the most comfortable setup for you!
Yes!
And that's why I'm trying to resist changing too much just because "I like it like that and I've always had it like that" if you see what I mean.
But it's soooooooooooo hard. Muuusssssssssssssssssttttt fiddle.
I will get the harder fork spring though.
lets put it that way do you have this problem with the duke???
simple answer to all that worrying re bike set up
' shut up and ride ' !
paul
Do you have the rear set up similary soft?
Maybe its not trying to kill you on the downs is because you have a good bike and the balance is about right..
Soft front and a hard rear would, I believe notice more.
Don't worry. This is just a temporary aberration and you will be back to faffing in no time.
Bike set-up is critical. If you've changed it and still find it good, then that's still a good setup for you.
I've transformed bikes from dogs into inspired trail machines by just rotating the riser bars forward or back, or moving the saddle. One previous bike was a handful on the descents - kept going over the bars, was really slow on the descents; 20mm shorter stem and riser bars, and it was utterly brilliant.
So I think riding position makes a huge difference.
As stated above you can pretty much get used to anything, that said I too can be over fussy with set up.
Although a bike that is well set up for it's purpose is a joy to ride, I've just put flat bars and bar ends on my Rush primarily to help with climbs during my solos this year, climbing is my biggest weakness as far as XC go's and having the flat bar / bar end set up is a revelation on the climbs it's a tad naggery on steep descents but as above I'll get used to it.
Do you have the rear set up similary soft?
No, it's an RP2 air shock and is spot on according to the 'sag gauge' supplied with the bike. It feels prefect.
I think the reason why I'm OK with the soft fork (It a Pike) is that it's really supple and I do have the damping set correctly, so I'm just using all of the travel a lot of the time, which is no biggie in the UK, well at Afan anyway!
I'm off to the Lakes in a couple of weeks so I'm going to stick a harder spring in for that and see how it goes. I reckon I'll probably keep 2 springs and switch them over depending on the riding....
lets put it that way do you have this problem with the Duke???
The front end of that is a bit overdamped, yes. I'd like to get it revalved by Maxton or somebody, but it'll do!
🙂
perhaps your previous view of a 'good' setup was in reality pretty bad but you didnt know any better.
and now you've realised what a good setup actually is?
Be nicer when it is right I rekon...
Is the Pike a 2 spring fork ie spring in both legs (sounds stupid question doesnt it)? Could try one hard and one medium if the hard springs are too stiff...
grumm - depends how you ride! I find an X-firm too soft at times and weight 2st less than you.
Yeah I guess so - but even doing jumps (not massive ones admittedly) I only seem to use about 2/3rds of the travel. I wonder if the stiffness of the springs isn't completely uniform and I have just got an expecially stiff one?
Having read the rest of this thread I find myself agreeing with Jackthedog. 😉
Are you bottoming the fork every couple of hundred metres or going over the bars on every descents. If not then their not too soft. Most people run their forks far too firm with far to much compression damping IMO.
perhaps your previous view of a 'good' setup was in reality pretty bad but you didnt know any better.and now you've realised what a good setup actually is?
I was beginning to realise that my last bike (Yeti 575) wasn't all that great in certain areas, hence the new bike.
But I've been riding long enough to know what good set up is, thanks!
🙂
The point is that I know the set-up isn't perfect, but for this bike it simply doesn't seem to matter anywhere near as much as on others. The Yeti was a bugger to set up.....
Are you bottoming the fork every couple of hundred metres or going over the bars on every descents. If not then their not too soft. Most people run their forks far too firm with far to much compression damping IMO.
No, but then with a well designed fork like a Pike, you don't really 'feel' the bottom of the travel. Compression damping doesn't make a fork 'firmer' it just slows the movemenet down.
I know it's a bit too soft because I'm running too much static sag. Compensating for that with extra compression damping won't work, the fork just begins to feel a bit harsh. (Yes I have tried it) The only way to change the sag is to get the spring rate correct
🙂
90% rider,10% bike.
90% rider,10% bike.
In this context that means nowt, fella! You're just trotting out a tired old cliche...
🙂
But I've been riding long enough to know what good set up is, thanks!
but are you quite sure about this? old habits and all that.
(not having a pop and stuff, and my setups probably as bad as anyone elses 😀 just tyring to play devils advocate!)
we could probably all benefit from an afternoon riding session with TF or the Mojo guys and would be suprised at what these guys tell us. infact even these guys have different opinions on setup.
[i]No, but then with a well designed fork like a Pike, you don't really 'feel' the bottom of the travel.[/i]
i can confirm that actually you do, when you clang the lowers off the uppers....
No, but then with a well designed fork like a Pike, you don't really 'feel' the bottom of the travel.i can confirm that actually you do, when you clang the lowers off the uppers....
Ahh, yes. I've done that on my Rebas, but you have to hit them stupidly hard for that to happen, as you have to get through the bump stop first!
This is a pic from the weekend, you can see I'm using all the travel up to the last 5mm-ish on the forks and less than that on the shock. That 5mm on the forks is the bump-stop territory! The shock goes a tiny bit further on a 2-3ft drop off....But otherwise that's it
🙂
[img]
Aww, you can't really see it on that pic, can you.
Try this
grumm - MemberYeah I guess so - but even doing jumps (not massive ones admittedly) I only seem to use about 2/3rds of the travel. I wonder if the stiffness of the springs isn't completely uniform and I have just got an expecially stiff one?
nah, they're pretty uniform. I have 2 pikes and a mate with a Pike that had X firm too. I can bottom all of them in the car park. I do hit reasonably big jumps but never bottom them on landing as I'll only really jump stuff to nice landing transitions (never to flat). I bottom them on take offs.
If it doesn't actually injure you to ride it, its probably fine.
I like running sus soft.
This is a pic from the weekend, you can see I'm using all the travel up to the last 5mm-ish on the forks and less than that on the shock. That 5mm on the forks is the bump-stop territory! The shock goes a tiny bit further on a 2-3ft drop off....But otherwise that's it
So they are well set up and NOT too soft for how you ride them.
This is all very interesting.
I too have a Pitch, but a Pitch comp. As my riding developed I found the X-Fusion rear shock had it's limitations, so I bought a DHX 5.0 Air and put that on, also I found the spring to feel a bit soft and after talking to Tim @ TF tuned he said the stock med spring is only really good for riders upto 12st, so in went a Firm one.
THe first ride at Llandegla last weekend, showed me some benifits of what I'd done.
- The firm spring made the bike feel much more stable, especially into berms where you can now lean on the front of the bike to get more traction, well it felt like that anyway.
- The sock was a revelation, I had to stop to check it was working as the bob I was used to on climbing had gone 😮 , must be that propedal stuff!
- The shock does need further tuning, a bit more bottom out resistance as I was getting full travel pretty easily (never bottomed out completley - but no big hits were taken), but it was the first ride so it's gonna take a couple more.
- I made the rebound a couple of turns slower over where I had it set with the Med. spring and this made the fork feel just as supple/plush but with the extra stiffness/firmness of the firm spring.
- On other set up features, I fitted wider bars soon after I got the bike, just to try them and they felt great, very confidence inspiring on the downs.
- I had to (being a bit of a tart) fit a matching stem, it was 5mm shorter than the OE one, but I did notice a difference especially on the ups, where the front lifted slightly more easily, I corrected this by dropping the bars 5mm with a smaller spacer under the stem, job done.
SO I've come to the comclusion that set up does indeed matter, how far you take it is a personal thing, but you;ve gotta get it right or the bike could feel like a pig.
So they are well set up and NOT too soft for how you ride them.
No, they are too soft. Too much static sag and I'm using full travel too often. I've given it a few rides for them to bed in and for me to be sure, but a firm spring will be the only change between now and th PPdS in June
🙂
nah, they're pretty uniform. I have 2 pikes and a mate with a Pike that had X firm too. I can bottom all of them in the car park. I do hit reasonably big jumps but never bottom them on landing as I'll only really jump stuff to nice landing transitions (never to flat). I bottom them on take offs.
Hmm well I can't physically push mine down more than about 2/3rds, even putting all my 16 stone weight on. I've never really played with the rebound, is it possible its set too fast and thus the fork is bouncing back up before reaching full travel?
Never had a bike with decent forks before where you could play with such things.
is it possible its set too fast and thus the fork is bouncing back up before reaching full travel?
No, not at all.
Rebound only controlls the SPEED of the rebound, not WHEN it happens. Heavier rides need less (faster) rebound damping than lighter ones as their bodyweight stops the suspension rebounding too quickly. Check how many full turns you have from fully slow to fully fast on the rebound knob and set it about 1/4 of the way from fully fast as a starting point. If the fork feels harsh, add some damping (turn towards slow) if it feels a bit soggy, go the other way. Make small adjustments though!
That's basically all you need to know.
It's no good copying someone else's settings, you need to understand what the adjustments do, then you can work out WHAT to do with them.
😀
think it makes a massive difference, although it depends on the track, riding arround cannock for example as long as the bikes ballanced the suspension can be set up as badly as you like, a rigid bike would cope with 90% of it at full pace.
Currently playing arround with bar height after settling on a 90mm stem and playing arround with higher spring rates.
What's the metric for determining how good the setup is? If it's time, i.e. you are a racer then it's important to get the right setup, and the results are quantifiable. If it's smiles per mile then it's far more vague. There's elements of riding that I've enjoyed as much on a ten year old RockShox Dart, V-brake equipped Clockwork as I have on my shiny new Five. I can tell the difference when I change the pressure or rebound in my forks and shock but at the end of the day the performance of the bike is outweighed by the weather, the number of punctures, how I fared against my mates, the number and severity of crashes, how good my lunch was etc, so my setup is limited to a little bit of PRE-RIDE fettling with air pressure, plus ensuring my brakes work well and that I'm comfortably positioned.
I had my concept of correct levels of sag (and therefore spring weights) completely rubbished on a trip to the Sierra's the year before last. The guide there ran his 150mm bombers at over 50% sag and rear to match - he came from a MX racing background and prefered negative suspension travel (keeping the wheels on the ground) to positive. It certainly seemed to work as he was fast as f3ck and got traction were I was bumping all over the shop. I didn't see him get much air but the times he did the landings were smooth - I guess his setup wouldn't be much cop for hucking!
Well I fiddled and fiddled with my Patriot, and now it's far far better than it was. I dismantled the forks to fettle them; I rotated the bars, changed grips; I moved the saddle fore and aft, I made the tyres tubeless. Of these things probably the fork fettling and riding position made the most difference.
acjim - if you do that you run the risk of grounding the bike on stuff. You do greatly benefit from a lower centre of gravity. For a while on my Patriot I ran the slacker shock mount which gives almost DH angles, but I wound the adjustable fork in more which steepened the angles up but for a lower ride. It made it brilliant in the singletrack but I kept hitting the pedals on climbs.
If you want to get picky, you would be adjusting the bike for different trails/areas/types of riding. A key advantage of adjustable air-sprung forks...
Could you possibly be wrong about your idea of set up and have "luckly" now found the correct "tune" for you? Just an idea.
If you want to get picky, you would be adjusting the bike for different trails/areas/types of riding. A key advantage of adjustable air-sprung forks...
This is why I now have 5 bikes 🙁
This is why I now have 5 bikes
Me too.
Thing is, if I ride the road bike a lot then the Orange 5 seems short and upright so I feel like I want a longer stem and shorter forks. If I ride the Patriot a lot, then the 5 seems too long and stretched out, so I want longer forks. Hmm.