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i reckon you might have compromise on one of the requirements to get the best deal/bike...
what specically to you not like about the Vapour?
I have an MTB and also a hybrid - went for the Boardman Pro Ltd with discs, flat bar etc - is a really nice ride, even on some longer rides it's comfy. I upgraded to a carbon seat-post that was very worthwhile, and XTR pedals, but otherwise comes well specced anyway
http://www.boardmanbikes.com/hybrid/hybrid_proltd.html
rootes1 - Memberi reckon you might have compromise on one of the requirements to get the best deal/bike...
what specically to you not like about the Vapour?
I know, apart from the Roadrat I think I'll struggle to find any alternatives.
It's purely the lack of discs (no mounts on frame or fork to upgrade either) and the bloody toe overlap that annoy me about the Vapour. Otherwise it's been a cracking bike for the past couple of years. I could live with drop bars again but I think most drop bar frames are shorter than flat-barred frames (to do with the geometry) hence looking at flat-barred.
There is the Genesis Croix De Fer: almost suits my needs apart from still suffering from toe overlap. I've tried one (I like my Genesis bikes) and don't see it as a replacement as it only solves one of my issues...
BigAirNig - MemberI have an MTB and also a hybrid - went for the Boardman Pro Ltd with discs, flat bar etc - is a really nice ride, even on some longer rides it's comfy. I upgraded to a carbon seat-post that was very worthwhile, and XTR pedals, but otherwise comes well specced anyway
Funnily that's a good option if I go for the Halfords scheme. Do you have any issues with toe overlap? Does it have full mudguard clearance?
I got the 'Ridgeback flight 04' Alfine,full mudguards SLX disc brakes on the CTW scheme last year, I've been pretty happy with it but had to have the rear wheel rebuilt on warranty.
It came to 999 including the rear rack mudguards and rear light.
Nope. All require adequate brakes. Otherwise known as brakes.
That statement is just totally inadequate 😀
What about Genesis Croix de Fer? Discs (Shimano), and a Tiagra triple. Not sure about toe overlap.
Salsa Vaya looks to be an answer, but over budget...
you could build up a bike based on a ridge 26er and then fit 700c wheels etc would be fine with discs..
but then they would be almost a road rat - also road rat has track rear drop outs - more of a faff to take the rear wheel out
Big S crosstrail pro?
[img] 
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not a cool looking as roadrat and looks a bit gash..
reckopn you should for that croix de fer and get over the toe overlap issue... i have size 12 feet - you just get used to it
in answer to the original question i'd get a pompetamine, as the toe-overlap seems off-putting at first but in my experience is very rarely noticeable let alone an issue.
if it is a problem, though, i'd just get an inbred.
Re. Boardman
Excuse my ignorance on toe overlap - do you mean hitting front wheel on a turn ??? if so - I have not experienced a problem at all.
As for mudguard clearance - I don't honestly know how much room they take up, but there is space above the tyre - I'd be surprised if you couldn't get something to fit ....
I have a 2010 Ridgeback flight 04 and I think its great - looks good too IMO :
[img] 
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ps. but the saddle is gash - i'm gonna change it ASAP
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43121659@N06/4209587282/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43121659@N06/4208827995/
that flight looks nice
if toe overlaps a big issue couldn't you just fit some different forks? surely it depends entirely on the toptube length - a larger frame will have less of an issue?
Hi,
Also got a Boardman Pro Ltd though I ditched the flat bars and hydraulics for drop bars with BB7s. Nice bike, rides fast and will take knobbly tyres come the cross season.
Having been commuting through traffic every day for the last 6 years or so with rim brakes, I'd like to switch to discs for one reason: response time in the wet. When it's properly wet, rim brakes pick up a film of water and it takes at least a full rotation of the wheel with the brakes on to clear it. Once cleared, the stopping power is fine, but I'd much rather have brakes that work when I pull them, not a second or so later.
My commuter is an old road frame, with [url= http://www.profile-design.com/profile-design/products/base-bars/aluminum-base-bars/airwing.html ]Profile Airwing[/url] bars and Zefal mudguards (designed for bikes with no mudguard clearance). I think the Airwings are ideal for a commuter, offering a reasonable drop whilst keeping your fingers properly over the brakes - unlike riding on the hoods of drop bars, and if you want to sit up on a hill you can use the cross bar.
careful pdw - if you say you like to be able to stop quickly glen the wise will inform you you have no road sense. 😆
I have just replaced an steel inbred 29er (slot dropout) with a scandal frame.
Main reason - found removing rear wheel wheel a faff. For a geared bike slot dropouts (as found on the roadrat) aren't really a plus point.
Regarding putting skinnier tires on a 29er - bike is currently shod with Maxxis Raze 700x35 and the bottom bracket height seems veeeeeery low.
Actually, what is the bb height on a 700c hybrid (with 30-35mm tires)?
One thing with the roadrat, is that even with gears fitted you can move the rear wheel backwards for loads of mudguard/tyre/mud clearance in the winter, or tuck the rear wheel in close with skinnier tyres and no guards in the summer.
I might have been spoiling for a fight a little bit yesterday - sorry, grumpy Monday syndrome. Or just grumpy anyday syndrome. Not that I didn't mean it all, but I should have been nicer about it!
Thanks for the responses - that gives me a couple more things to look at. The idea of a 26" MTB frame with 700c wheels isn't something that I thought about before, but I'll look into it. Possibly not as much of an option if I'm buying a complete bike on my bike to work scheme though.
Got to admit I'd not considered the horizontal dropouts on the Roadrat being an issue before. I can see minuses and pluses for them though, as people have mentioned above.
Ah, the toe overlap issue: I do tend to find it a problem and if there's a bike option without it, then I'm keen to explore it. I honestly didn't know toe overlap existed until I bought a road bike a few years ago (which I sold soon after...). If it was totally unavoidable then fair enough, I'd just live with it, but my wife's bike doesn't suffer it being a 700c wheeled flatbar Giant and the Roadrat certainly claims not to have it (the flat-bar model): [i]"For flat bars, we didn't want some half baked 'flat bars stuck on a road frame' effort. We started with our award winning mountain bike frame layout, and optimised it around a longer, faster position for easy speed on the road. Long, low slung top tubes means no toe overlap or standover problems, and because of where the rider is positioned, mountain bikers used to central weight distribution and whipcrack singletrack handling will feel right at home. Just right for weaving through the morning traffic."[/i]. Perhaps I'm being taken in by the marketing, but that sounds good to me...
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Should've said I've posted that pic as it shows a good amount of space between where the pedal will be and the front wheel - good for no toe overlap.
The horizontal dropouts are the one thing I'd change about the roadrat. Not used an eccentric BB or (unfortunately) the Ibis Tranny solution but horizontal slots seem a 'messy' way of taking up the slack and (only speaking for myself) make getting the wheel out a PITA
Could you just fit a disc compatible fork? I did that for my singlespeed 'winter' bike (a roadrat one coincidentally) and it made a world of difference.
Cheaper than a new bike, but if you want a new bike....
Not read all the posts...have you looked at the crosstrail expert or pro? both come with hydraulic discs brakes and would seem to fit the rest of your specifications...
I've got a RoadRat and love it. I've done some major road rides on it too with no problem. I'm thinking of changing the MTB gearing to a more road-oriented setup now though..
I've never run guards on it before (I have a CrudCatcher) but will need to fit some in the autumn - what do other RoadRat users use?
Apologies for the slight hijack but the OP is considering buying one and he is planning to fit guards... 🙂
sks full length FTW.
the roadrat ticks all of your boxes a11y.
I love mine. Horizontal dropouts do mean that fixing punctures when running full mudguards is a wee bit awkward, but that's the only downside I have found.
As for mudguards I use full length SKS chromoplastics (FTW +1) for up to 28c tyres, although they do them for bigger rubber too.
It's great for the commute, trips to the pub and handles surprisingly well when laden down with too much beer/shopping. Comfy on longer rides too.
i've got some tortec reflector ones,
http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/productDetails.asp?productID=9498
seeem pretty sturdy and have a nice reflective bit round the edge. the 700c 20-26 size is quite tight on 23mm tyres though. Think i'd size up if buying again.
I love mine. Horizontal dropouts do mean that fixing punctures when running full mudguards is a bit awkward, but that's the only downside I have found.
On my single speed road bike I have track ends and full sks guards.
if you fit the SKS secuclips designed for the front guards than you can disconnect the guard stays quickly without tools and it allows you to slide the back wheel out if you need to.
beanum - MemberApologies for the slight hijack but the OP is considering buying one and he is planning to fit guards...
No problem at all, useful to know!
rootes1, useful info, thanks. I'm using SKS Chromoplastics on my current bike but think I junked those plastic detacher things for the front, but I'd probably need new guards anyway as my front one's held together with duck tape...
**** it, I've not had an email back from that shop so I'll call them about a Roadrat. Thinking about the geared, V-brake model (£110 cheaper than the disc-equipped one) if it comes with disc-wheels. Could then fit my preferred discs (Shimano) rather than be tied to the ones it comes with).
debaser - Memberthe roadrat ticks all of your boxes a11y.
I love mine. Horizontal dropouts do mean that fixing punctures when running full mudguards is a wee bit awkward, but that's the only downside I have found.
I've never owned a bike with horizontal dropouts - is that a problem common to all horizontal dropouts? My singlespeed frames have always had eccentric BBs and vertical dropouts so I've no experience of horizontals.
I have been lucky avoiding punctures (fingers crossed) since changing to Schwalbe Land Cruiser tyres with puncture resistant stuff, so I'd hope not to have to remove the rear wheel often anyway. Damn, I'm already talking my way around the negatives on the Roadrat...
what about a Cannondale BadBoy 26 Disc - ticks all the boxes from the OP question
I've never owned a bike with horizontal dropouts - is that a problem common to all horizontal dropouts?
Depending on the guards and how tightly fitting they are. I use some SKS raceblades on my single speed and there's enough flex in them to just push them back in the event of a puncture. So from my experience not a big problem, but I'm not looking for Formula 1 wheel change times (truth be told I'm usually glad of a break :-))
Flat bar, disc'd, alfined Roadrats due back in stock early July, apparently.
I have a vouvher burning a hole in my pocket.
Looking forward to trying a number of new things (700c wheels, alfine etc) compared to a semi-slicked MTB. Commute will be pretty similar to OP's, road and trail.
A mate mentioned a Singlular Cycles Gryphon, which looked like an interesting option (looks being a big divider with that bike). Couldn't do it within my budget unfortunately.
SJS and CRC sell secuclips iun there own:
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[url= http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-SKS-SKS-Secu-Clips-for-Front-Mudguard-Stays--Per-Pair-693.htm ]Sjs Link[/url]
TBH I think I'm swinging more and more towards the Roadrat. I've yet to hear that I can definately get one via my work's particular scheme, hence still wanting to hear about more "mainstream" possibiities should I have to resort to Halfords.
You can order a Roadrat through Halfords no problem - I ordered mine through my works scheme from there the year before last. I went into the store, told them what I wanted and they put it through on special order. I think I just had to call Cotic first to check on stock.
For what it's worth, I'd say it's a good match for what you're looking for and ticks all the boxes. You will probably need to be careful with tyre choice though given your mixed commute. I run drops and cross tyres on mine and it will go in most stuff, althought it gets a bit sketchy on really rocky trails. Absolutely rips on tarmac, fire roads and smooth singletrack and is a great mud bike.
Oh...and toe overlap has never been an issue on mine, even with the "short" frame.
this is what I got through Cyclescheme last year when faced with similar requirements :
This would seem to be just the ticket. Review doesn't specifically mention mudguards, but the concept looks made for these requirements.
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/touring/product/vaya-10-39445 ]Salsa review[/url]
Big tyres and mudguards with drop bars on a small sized bike will always give you toe overlap - the Roadrat in flat-barred/long frame guise avoids it because you need more frame stretch to go with the flat bars.