[i]Does ST sell review space[/i]
No. No we don't.
[i]Magazine reviews are bought and paid for, this is a fact.[/i]
No. No it isn't.
Maybe it's not the case for STW. I don't really read it. For other large magazines it's true.
Maybe it's not the case for STW. I don't really read it. For other large magazines it's true.
Which ones do you mean, and can you provide proof of this?
Innuendo is a dangerous thing.
There's another discreet aspect here, in that we very rarely see anything that scratches below the surface, let alone investigative journalism in the field
For example who makes bikes for who, and what conditions are in their factories? OEM vs aftermarket product, the differences? Maybe an article on Grey product channels and how there are guys who make a living swapping excess OE wheels from one company with groupsets from another, or bring in frames from the Netherlands to undercut the UK dealer price.
I'm fairly sure that if a magazine came out detailing certain firms use of illegal retail price maintenance tactics to control the marketplace that it would have an overnight effect on their advertising income
Maybe an article on Grey product channels and how there are guys who make a living swapping excess OE wheels from one company with groupsets from another, or bring in frames from the Netherlands to undercut the UK dealer price.
It sounds like quite a dull article to be honest. Next you'll be demanding an expose on the charlatans who sell bikes and components for money. 😉
No. No it isn't.
Being pedantic, he didn't say 'All magazine reviews"
Might be dull for you, I reckonthere are people with a passion for exotic Italian road frames who would cream themselves over the prospect of saving a grand 😀
There's another discreet aspect here, in that we very rarely see anything that scratches below the surface, let alone investigative journalism in the field
True, but if your staff at a magazine called, 'Much Better with Raiser bars' for example, would you rather 1)Just get out and ride, come back and write a few nice words about the ride and bike. 2) go undercover for a few weeks/months in China/Tiawan. And which do you think the editor is more likely to approve your expense claim for, the plane ticket and hotels, or a gregs pasty and some nuun tablets?
Might be dull for you, I reckonthere are people with a passion for exotic Italian road frames who would cream themselves over the prospect of saving a grand
Both of them. The point is that the reason such articles don't get written is because there isn't any interest in them. And that's what drives editorial content along with the (fictitious) huge bribes and free bikes and holidays in the sunshine and free chocolate and stuff. It's just niche and not in a good way.
What would you bribe them with at Singletrack towers? Surely there's only so much coffee, whippets and ale that people can need?
jimjam - MemberI counted 37 pages of adverts from one such company in one issue in dirt.
It's no coincidence that this particular company never receives a negative review in this publication.
Practically nothing gets a bad review in Dirt... Some things get lacklustre ones but even those are in the minority (and, usually minor reviews)
But also you can see that some of their top rewarded products aren't massive advertisers, frinstance Cotic and Stanton didn't buy themselves top hardtail, Last had no UK distributor or advertising when they got in the Dirt 100, YT advertise but not on the scale of the big distributors (more now than when they first started getting good reviews).
andyrm - Member
which ones do you mean, and can you provide proof of this?Innuendo is a dangerous thing.
First, use your imagination. There aren't that many mtb mags in the UK. Second, even if I provided email transcripts there would be some people who'd want to see invoices and receipts.
Thirdly, who is in danger from the implication that magazines give preferential treatment for those who keep them in jobs? Even if it was just idle chit chat, it's not as dangerous as outing people for the sake of proving a point to some online skeptic.
Northwind
Practically nothing gets a bad review in Dirt... I imagine they would say that they only review the good stuff.
They may well say that, but one particular heavy heap of shit had every negative turned into a posivtive ala "the weight is good for stability and a sign of reliability" and so on.
Last had no UK distributor or advertising when they got in the Dirt 100, YT advertise but not on the scale of the big distributors (more now than when they first started getting good reviews).
I seem to remember YT's first review in Dirt coincided with their first two page advert at the front of the mag.
Jimjam - you do realise that a lot of us who review for Singletrack don't actually work for them right? Most of us are freelance.
Greg, I don't actually read Singletrack. Hence I've never read a shockingly biased review in there and been prompted to ask the respective brand manager what he had to do for it.
Fair enough! FWIW, I'd be amazed if they'd let me submit anything that I'd been bribed for! Which is what buying editorial is in many ways.
Magazines have always survived on Advertising and with websites its even more important. It has always been the case the advertisers got more coverage in the magazine article, its common sense there is a link.
I bought my first proper MTB in 2006 after reading some reviews but to be honest thereafter I have rarely looked at them.
I buy Singletrack to read about rides, events and road trips plus the editorials. It helps to support the website too.
Jimjam - you do realise that a lot of us who review for Singletrack don't actually work for them right? Most of us are freelance.
I think the discussion is far to centered on ST when the OP was clearly about another much larger publication.
Unfortunately freelance or staff I imagine you don't personally choose the products you get to review.
The fundamental issue is that editorial can be bought and therefore skews reviews and its dishonest .. I can't see how a publication or website can derive an impartial informed opinion about a companies product that arrived wrapped in £50 notes.
I have first hand experience of 'cash or trade for editorial' so it happens .. so lets support the people who shun this and put our money into providing longevity to honest product review and appraisal.
Who's playing the system Jimjam? surely we deserve to know?
even if I provided email transcripts there would be some people who'd want to see invoices and receipts.
What's wrong with people, right?
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That'll be censored, not that I'm agreeing that it was trek or anything
If bike "journalists" were real jounalists we wouldn't have 650b right now. Just bowing down to whatever is new and not rocking the boat. 👿
[i]I can't see how a publication or website can derive an impartial informed opinion about a companies product that arrived wrapped in £50 notes.[/i]
Ours come in bubble wrap.
[i]so lets support the people who shun this and put our money into providing longevity to honest product review and appraisal.[/i]
I look forward to seeing the P beside your name ;o)
That'll be censored, not that I'm agreeing that it was trek or anything
what you talkin bout willis?
we can still see your post about it being PB and Bontrager
That's odd. It went.
Yes, that's how magazines sell advertising space. "Hey, we're doing a review of your stuff in next month's edition, would you like to buy some advertising to go with it?". Not the other way round.I seem to remember YT's first review in Dirt coincided with their first two page advert at the front of the mag.
There is the small point that not many bike products these days are truly shite.
Inappropriate for some applications perhaps, but unless it actually breaks on test I'm not sure how negative you could be.
I seem to remember YT's first review in Dirt coincided with their first two page advert at the front of the mag.
The thing here is, it could be them paying for a review, or maybe when they found out Dirt were going to publish the review, they decided to include the Ad, if you're trying to sell bikes why wouldn't you, could work both ways.
SO people actually read mags/website reviews 😯
I thought the bike buying process was :
> See pretty bike
> Start thread on STW forum on said pretty bike
> Use a consensus of the hive mind to decide whether to buy pretty bike or not
😆
so lets support the people who shun this and put our money into providing longevity to honest product review and appraisal.I look forward to seeing the P beside your name ;o)
Sorry Dave I only pay for editorial not for offering words of support 😉
Blimey, I spent considerable time a couple of years ago trying to get a road bike into magazines and web sites for review, no one was interested, not a first look, quick test nothing!
Yes, that's how magazines sell advertising space. "Hey, we're doing a review of your stuff in next month's edition, would you like to buy some advertising to go with it?". Not the other way round.
I've no experience with bike mags as i don't read them unless they give me free socks that are too small, but i do help produce dozens of other hobbyist/lifestyle publications. Very few work as you describe. Most require bribery of some sort and others who will only feature a product/service if the supplier buys advertising space.
Some take it a stage further and will allow you to be part of a feature if you pay them for the privilege [i]and[/i] insist you buy ad space. Often they have to provide the contents of the feature so it's even less work for the publisher/editor. I should point out that these features are run as part of the editorial and not advertorial. They charge even more for advertorial stuff.
Part of the problem mentioned in the original market is that it also distorts the magazine and website market
It must be gutting to find out that the your rivals get paid to run the editorial as well as the adverts
mags and manufacturers/distributor talk to each other, how do you think "group test" or "shotouts" happen?
Hi xxxx we doing a bike test for March 2015 on 150mm travel bike from 1.5 to 2K do you have a bike fitting this to test? we need the bike for Feb testing.
Reply Yes love to or no sorry are demo bike is already out at that time.
If the test is for 5 bikes but they get 8 bikes, do you not think they might look after the company's who advertise with them? does not mean they get the best review.
Just like the local bike shop looking after you and fitting you when you have a issue and what to ride at the weekend, because you a regular & loyal customer.
Also you got to look at the target end customer? why would a company who do mainly DH products put ads in cycling sport/road cycling mags? they going to put it in Dirt and other mags/website that is big in DH. (and their not that many)
Also think how many parts/kit some of these places get? they prob can't get through them all, so you could look at if you buy editorial space you sure you get x number items reviewed. but does it mean they all great reviews?
Saying all of I have seen reviews that I have wondered how truthful
they are
As a former marketing manager for a bike company which had a tiny marketing budget, and therefore didn't advertise in any of the magazines (not through choice!). I can honestly say I never had any trouble getting bikes/clothing/accessories reviewed. We used to get good reviews, including WMB's bike of the year one year.
Is it not conceivable that bikes/things which get good reviews are actually good?!
So many comments so far from the OP point ..
Being offered advertising to run in the issue that features your product isn't the issue here .. what this is about, as per the link in the OP, is a pre packaged years worth of editorial for a fee.
It just fundamentally feels wrong that something that should be impartial has a monetary value attached to it... due to limited test slots I assume this then invariably means that companies who can't afford to buy editorial then get bumped for those that can.
Also I think when questioning the legitimacy of the OP source we should accept that it was posted by a journalist not a disgruntled forum member or small bike company owner with insufficient marketing budget to buy editorial.
It also works from retail side, when I look at getting a "brand" I also have a look in the mags/website to see what adds they have, as it about brand awareness and make my life easier to "sell" that brand, as most people look at mags/internet, it be easier to see something they seen been advertised than something that hasn't. (I also look to see if the brand is heavily discounted on line a lot of the time)
And even better if "brand" get a good review!
paul78 - Memberdue to limited test slots I assume this then invariably means that companies who can't afford to buy editorial then get bumped for those that can.
That's a bit of a leap. Remember the example's a website- so like I said up the page, it'll be resource limited not size limited. So it's possible that the money paid enables them to produce and carry more content as well as the Trek/Bontrager paid for stuff. Not a given either way I think but generally websites want to increase traffic and they can do that with more quality content. But then again they might just want to release X number of banner articles per month.
You can get a good idea of how accurate magazine reviews are by comparing them with any forum thread on the same product.
Egg Beaters are probably the extreme example. Any thread on them will bring up countless tales of collapsed bearings, snapped spindles and walks home, yet as far as I know, no magazine review has ever questioned their reliability.
Of course, in common with any other product review, the new model offers an improvement over the old one, although they never mentioned it needed improving when it was the current model. 🙄
"...the longevity of the bearings can be variable.
They were okay on this test pair as we pumped fresh grease into them but we've frequently experienced bearing failure and even pedal bodies falling off axles on previous 'Beaters."
Score: 2.5/5
"Magazine reviews are bought and paid for, this is a fact"Well, I am ****ing minted, obviously.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-magazines-selling-editorial-content
My mate who works atr a bike mag's someone sarcastic response to this thread on Facebook...
Countless adverts and editorials in a variety of trade magazines over the past ten years, and i've written every one of the editorials myself. Even wrote a 2 page spread once about our product area with all the mag did was slap their writer's name on it and change a couple of words round but leave in all the references to us.
I saw that too Munrobiker, do you reckon he's just not getting cut in on the action?
😉
Where do the likes of CRC/Nukeproof/Vitus or Evans/Pinnacle etc fit in? Similar sort of setup perhaps?
Who cares, in the big scheme of things, any site or mag that runs adverts is less that objective, same for us, we all have favourites for reasons other than quality of product. t's a nice talking point but honestly...
