[Closed] Bike helmet wearing - to be made compulsory...........

TJ

Front & centre please

The only people who will care about this are people who dont wear helmets.

It'll be interesting to see how this squares with central governments policy of deregulation. From the stories online its not clear if its just going to be for kids.

Piha is your name after the beach in auckland?

I personally like the fact that you dont have to wear helmets good, I wear one whenever i go for a ride (mtb or road) but if i just want to pop to the shops i dont think its fair you should then be breaking the law if you dont put on a helmet.

Wear helmet anyway so I don't mind but like Australia -it could put a lot of people off riding.

after looking at my grammer maybe i need to wear a helmet all the time!

motorist education should come before compulsory helmets (for road riding); riding off road you`d be daft not to wear one. When cars pass me at 60 mph a few inches out no helmet would save me if they hit me, education that CYCLIST NEED SPACE would save more lives.

The only people who will care about this are people who dont wear helmets.

I care too, though I always wear a helmet. Evidence says compulsion tends to reduce bike usage:(

Insurance should follow the continental ( think )lead of the highest powered vehicle involved in a colision always being at fault.
I think that would concentrate the mind beautifully

treefingerlongboards - Member

Piha is your name after the beach in auckland?

Yep, I used to get there as often as I could when I lived in Auckland as a kid, fishing, swimming, exploring - great place to be. Have you been?

it makes me cringe when I see people riding on the road without a helmet on. especially on winding country roads!! :S

You shouldn't have to be told to wear something that could potentially save your life.

Baby Jesus didn't wear a helmet, and it's not mentioned in the bible, so that's all the evidence that counts.

it makes me cringe when I see people riding on the road without a helmet on. especially on winding country roads!! :S

You shouldn't have to be told to wear something that could potentially save your life.

Does it make you cringe when you don't see drivers wearing crash helmets in their cars? Plenty of lives to be saved that way.

I always wear one but wouldn't want to see them become compulsory. As jamesb says putting the onus on cyclists to wear protective gear* rather than on drivers to, you know, maybe control their ton of metal properly is ass-backwards IMO.

* And that's without even getting into how effective they are if you get hit by a car on a winding country road.

I'm 100% sure this will slide into the usual bollocks, but while there is still room;

[img] [/img]

In other words, in the places where lots of people cycle and don't wear helmets, fewer people die than those places where fewer people cycle and more wear helmets.

Cyclists are easy targets, easy money....mobile phone use in cars anyone?

I would not be writing this now if I had been helmetless when someone opened a van door on me and I nutted a wall

Tells us nothing crikey. Far too many other variables to draw a conclusion.

Statistics FAIL I'm afraid.

Here we go again 😯 The same people hating to be TOLD what to do 😯 Was the same with seat belts and motorbike helmets - give it up already 🙄

The only people who will care about this are people who dont wear helmets.

I would not be writing this now if I had been helmetless when someone opened a van door on me and I nutted a wall

No offence Edric, but so what? You can't possibly extrapolate from that to the conclusion that helmet use should be compulsory, any more than you can argue that nobody needs to worry about smoking because someone's grandad lived to be 100 while smoking 10 packs a day.

For the love of Jesus, i've already explained that God doesn't want you to wear a helmet. Arguing is just falling into the hands of the devil and his evil helpers.

The are thinking of getting rid of the law in Oz

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/16/2983587.htm

I wear a helmet most of the time (don't bother for pootles along a gravel track or trips to the shop) so it wouldn't affect me that much if helmets were compulsory but its the principle, I like the fact its my choice .

What about all the people that wear helmets but they don't fit / they have them in a stupid position on their head?

Rock Wallaby - Member
The are thinking of getting rid of the law in Oz

A health expert saying "get rid" and a cycle group vice-president saying "keep it" hardly equates to a political will to change the law does it?

Hope there is some wider debate but from that article it just sounds like an academic has done what he should do, research, and published. Politics however doesn't seem to follow such advice over here particularly well. Maybe it does over there better...

Edric do you even know you are right?

Agreed Becky, it's the principle of choice I like as well, although the "wearing in a stupid position" thing has got me thinking... Wonder if any legislation would go as far as stipulating how/were it should be worn. Bet hanging from an elbow would be popular on a hot day 🙂

I care too, though I always wear a helmet. Evidence says compulsion tends to reduce bike usage:(

Indeed. Which is probably where the reduction in deaths in Crikeys stats comes from

Mostly, not always, I wear a lid. But I'd stand with anyone who wanted to oppose a move like this, on the general principal of the thing. I simply don't like the idea of being forced into something like this.

Insurance should follow the continental ( think )lead of the highest powered vehicle involved in a colision always being at fault.

😆 You really think that, even if it was true? Do you call the RSPCA if you find a dead bird?

Edit - surely even TJ must have a boredom/pragmatist breaking threshold!

Indeed. Which is probably where the reduction in deaths in Crikeys stats comes from

PP, doesn't that graph say more cycling = fewer deaths (generally, with the Finns doing their own thing)
and more cycling with less helmet wearing (generally, with Sweden and Finland doing their own thing, with more deaths relatively).

Mostly, not always, I wear a lid. But I'd stand with anyone who wanted to oppose a move like this, on the general principal of the thing. I simply don't like the idea of being forced into something like this.

Still no TJ???

Will they be also required to wear knee pads and day-glow jackets? I can see it kicking off up there 😉

It crucified the cycle industry in Australia.

It marked the end of the non-enthusiast cyclist.

It will do the same here.

Hello! Just in from a night shift.

Edit - surely even TJ must have a boredom/pragmatist breaking threshold!

Indeed I have we went thru all thi sin a lot of detail only a couple of weeks ago.

There is no decent evidence that across populations helmet wearing reduces injuries. Daft tho it seems this is consistently shown in multiple studies looking at injury rates before and after helmet compulsion. They simply don't provide much protection from major injuries. ( good at minor ones) and there is evidence they exacerbate major injuries.

In Australian after helmets were made compulsory head injury rates per mile cycled increased and this has been seen in american states as well.

Helmet compulsion reduces the numbers who cycle dramatically and thus increases health risks from lack of exercise - so actually you have more deaths from heart attacks and so on.

Much of the evidence on both sides is poor, counter-intuitive and contradictory. Helmet designs are badly flawed, helmet testing standards are very low and not related to the real world.

I ain't gonna argue this all again - everything I state here is backed by evidence. The only evidence that shows helmets doing any good is from badly designed after the fact surveys of A&E stats which will allways exaggerate positives as its s elf selecting sample.
Wear one if you want - compulsion is shown over and over again to be counterproductive

cyclehelmets.org for the (mainly)anticompulsion argument

I see a lot of families out on a ride togehter along the towpath I use to get to my local trails. Hardly ever do you see the kids wearing helmets. I just cant fathom why parents would let their kids out on a bike without one.
Even if im riding the bike 50 yards to my local shop I always always have mine on.

PP, doesn't that graph say more cycling = fewer deaths

It does.

The number of people cycling seems to be an important factor in the safety of cyclists. Percentage wearing helmets does not.

However, there's also a big link between having decent cycling infrastructure and the number of trips made by bike. Decent infrastructure is what we need, not a helmet law. Or, should we reduce deaths from knife crime by enforcing the wearing of stab proof vests?

i think people should be encouraged to wear a crash-hat, but not forced by law.

this is based on my total guess that compulsory skid-lid wearing would just put people* off cycling.

anyone got any numbers on this? (i like numbers).

(*the average citizen of MotD-Xfactor land)

Adopting the role of TJ-lite.....

If you look at the statistics (rather than the stories) regarding injuries pre- and post helmet laws, you can draw your own conclusions.

Unfortunately, this does require you to adopt an open mind rather than your chosen opinion with regard to helmet use.

The info is out there;

Epicyclo has it in a nutshell, although I would add that it also led to cyclists being fined and prosecuted far more than any car driving transgressions.

I suspect that helmet compulsion would be a walkover in the UK, largely because of the attitudes revealed on here every time the subject is raised....

foxyrider - Member

Here we go again The same people hating to be TOLD what to do Was the same with seat belts and motorbike helmets - give it up already

The big difference is that the evidence base was good for them - it is not for cycle helmets.

Evidence based practice please.

People should be able to choose what they want to do. If not wearing a cycle helmet and increasing their chances of a life-changing / ending injury is their decision, then they should be able to choose to do that.

Darwinism.

For those of us out there with sense the law will make no difference.

One part which should be compulsory is helmets for children until they are 16. If the parents are dumb enough not to wear one, the least we can do is protect the children.

I love it when people mention Darwinism in relation to bike helmet laws.

Riding my bike to work without a helmet is safer than riding off road with one.

Ergo, we should ban mountain biking.

Shall we bring up the study that showed cars gave more space when overtaking non-helmet wearing cyclists?

i just dont want to have to be told to wear something as i dont like being told what is or what isnt good for me, i can make my own mind up.

sometimes i wear a helmet, sometimes i dont. i am a simple man,

I love it when people mention Darwinism in relation to bike helmet laws.

It's very appropriate.

LHS - I know we have done this before ad nauseum. However there simply is no evidence to back up what you say.

Perhaps people are capable of making informed choices and assessing risk sensibly.

Risk are low and protective effects of cycle helmets are slight.

Evidence based practice is the key thing and the evidence simply does not stack up for helmet compulison I am afraid. Helmet compulsion increases death rates - demonstrated over and over.

Lets not go over it again. I have read pretty much most of the research from the anti-helmet side and its all flawed.

As I said everyone is free to choose what they do. From a personal perspective i don't think it should be made compulsory as everyone should be free to choose.

Anyone who wants to see the discussion again just search for helmets on this forum.

Choose life.

I think people should be able to assess risk for themsleves and make their own judgements.

I'd always wear a helmet offroad (it's saved my skull several times) but popping round town I wouldn't.

There was a court case a few years back where a cyclist was knocked off at a roundabout and struck his head on the kerb sustaining brain injuries. He wasn't wearing a helmet. THe judge awarded him damages but reduced the amount by 20% (I think) because he contributed to the extent of his injuries by not wearing a helmet which, although not required by law, was readily available and might be expected to be worn by a reasonable person in order to prevent such injuries.

For me the funny thing about this is how the law will be enforced.... The police (especially in Northern Ireland where this originates) have more than enough to do. Will they bother to enforce it ??

There's a story here where the police did not pursue Motorbike thieves who were not wearing helmets due to H&S fears.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-10984311
I asked a copper in a traffic car in Manchester city centre why he chose to ignore a cyclist who just jumped 4 red lights in row forcing other road users to stop or swerve...He said we aren't allowed to chase cyclists in cars....So the chance of Plod going after little Sandy on his paper round with no helmet = ZERO IMO.

LHS - and the pro stuff isn't? Every piece that I have seen that shows helmets having a positive effect suffers from several major flaws rendering it completely invalid. Methodology and assumptions that shouldn't even make it into undergrad work.

A critique of the main piece of evidence used to justify helmet compulsion is here
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1069.html

Well worth a read

Choose life.

Most people do (as opposed to just trying to stay alive).

I wear a helmet, almost exclusively, oddly though I chose not to when towing my baby daughter in her trailer recently, why? Like I suspect many others, sense of security from a helmet leads to more risk taking on my behalf.

More risks leads to, well, a riskier life so I made, on that occasion, a safer choice for me and my daughter.

In my own humble opinion of course. 🙂

namastebuzz

I'd be interested on a reference to that because my understanding is that insurance companies lawyers have argued for this but it has never been granted as no expert will say a helmet would have reduced the injuries.

[i]I have read pretty much most of the research from [s]the anti-helmet[/s] both sides and its all flawed.[/i]

Which makes the 'Darwinism' style comments seem silly. If helmets worked as well as their proponents assume, it should be clear cut even taking all the confounding factors into account.

The fact that it isn't should illuminate the debate but first you have to apply the same level of scepticism to [b]both[/b] sides of the argument.

Crikey, do a search for helmets on this forum and read that thread first. No point going over old ground.

If I remember correctly even a full face motorcycle helmet does not provide much protection from a direct impact over quite a low speed - possibly 20kph.

Hey TandemJeremy

I can't remember the reference I'm afraid but I do remember reading the case (I was lecturing in law at the time).

It may have been north of the border thus wouldn't be binding in Englandshire (or even persuasive).

I read it.

Then you will understand that on one side of the argument are a lot of flawed statistic, and on the other side is science and a vast amount of research. IMPO of course.

EDIT: But I won't argue the in's and out's with you. It's a decision you get to make at the end of the day. Best of luck.

Conveniently London and Melbourne both started bike share schemes at the same time. Clearly there are differences in size, season and number of bikes but where London's bikeshare already gets 14,000 users on busy days, Melbourne averages just 70 per day. Surely it's no coincidence that the only bikeshare scheme to 'fail' in a major city is the only one with compulsory helmet laws. There seems to be no surer way of cutting the number of cyclists than imposing helmets.

Something's just occurred to me from reading this, so I've a question (one for TJ maybe?)

Someone mentioned about families being out with kids without helmets. Aren't kids' skulls softer than adults? All this talk of studies (or lack thereof) and statistics, presumably refers directly to adults. Are the same safety "facts" true for kids?

What I'm saying is, would the anti-helmet group advocate the same views towards kids wearing helmets as they would towards adults?

Oh - found [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/court-judgment-has-major-implications-for-cyclists-20250 ]THIS REPORT[/url] which is not the case I was referring to and only contains a hypothesis which, as TJ points out, would still require expert evidence to state that a helmet would definitely have prevented said injury.

PP, doesn't that graph say more cycling = fewer deaths

😳

It does, yes. I TOTALLY misread the graph. Which makes it a positive thing, sorry.

[i]LHS - Member
Then you will understand that on one side of the argument are a lot of flawed statistic, and on the other side is science and a vast amount of research.[/i]

No.
There are a vast amount of statistics, which can and have been interpreted in different ways, and a vast amount of science and research which hasn't proven the case one way or the other.

There are also a vast number of people making assumptions with regard to helmets that may or may not be valid.

You, along with others automatically assume that I am anti-helmet because I ask awkward questions about their effectiveness.

I'm saying show me. I'm saying that one interpretation of the evidence suggests that helmet compulsion doesn't actually help to reduce head injury in the way people assume, and I'm asking why that is.

That's called science; it's about approaching the subject with an open mind, about not insulting those who hold a different view.

Aren't kids' skulls softer than adults?

isn't that an argument for compulsory helmets for children at all times ?

God, the internet is shit.

Does anyone have a link to any information on how many deaths would be prevented (in theory) by a helmet law?

I would have thought the people calling for a compulsory law would have done some kind of calculation?

I can't help thinking its going to be very low, given that the number of cyclist deaths is quite low to start with (140 per year ish?)

Surely the effort involved would be better deployed in another area, which would save even more lives.

Crikey, As I said everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am sure for example there are people out there who still believe it is far better to not wear a seatbelt when in a car crash as you are thrown clear of danger.

That kind of statement would have seatbelt and car seat designers blood boiling.

Just like when you see "debates" that helmets don't necessarily protect you yet all the research and work you do on a day to day basis suggests the contrary.

That is why those who design seatbelts for a living will keep on wearing them and those who design helmets will keep on wearing them.

Whats great about this country is that YOU get to choose. Which is why having a law imposing this on you is fundamentally wrong.

BRING IT ON!! hahahha...all this about it will kill the cycle industry bleat bleat is utter BS..compulsory seatbelts or motorcycle helemts hasn't reduced the numbers of cars or motorcycles!!

oh and wearing a helmet makes you take more risks...REALLY...i totally forget i've got one on my head, and never think i can do this 5mtr dropoff cause i've got a helmet on...WTF

For me the funny thing about this is how the law will be enforced

This is it. Given how uninterested the police seem to be in riding at night with no lights, or red light jumping and pavement cycling, why would they go around stopping people with no helmets?

[i]Which is why having a law imposing this on you is fundamentally wrong.[/i]

Agreed.
My approach is similar to Pascals wager; I'll wear one, but I'm not convinced that they work as well as some people think. Unfortunately, as I said, I think we have a situation now where cyclists truly believe that helmets are always required and to ride without one is asking for certain death. Compulsion would be easy to achieve in the current climate, but my feeling is that it will have little impact on the rates of death and or serious head injury.

So the underworked Police in this country are going to enforce this law the same as they enforce banning of mobile phones whilst driving? The only difference is it'll be easier to nick someone riding without a helmet - penalty a fine, can't really be fixed either because a ten year old won't be able to pay whatever it is.

I'd have thought with the current doom and gloom coming out of Westminster Village this would be the last thing they'd dare impose. Talk about wasting money!!

Given how uninterested the police seem to be ... why would they go around stopping people with no helmets?

It's not likely, if the number of kids I see hacking around the streets here on motorbikes without helmets (or numberplates) is anything to go by.

Compulsion would be easy to achieve in the current climate, but my feeling is that it will have little impact on the rates of death and or serious head injury.

The problem I have and I think alot of people have is that the choice is taken away from you and the Nanny State take over. The argument about them being compulsory on Motorbikes and therefore should be compulsory for Pushbikes is pointless because of the speed differential obviously.

As for the "I always wear a helmet when I go out" brigade, good for you - I don't the shops are 500 yards away and work is the same - I choose not too and it's my choice.

I asked a copper in a traffic car in Manchester city centre why he chose to ignore a cyclist who just jumped 4 red lights in row forcing other road users to stop or swerve...He said we aren't allowed to chase cyclists in cars....So the chance of Plod going after little Sandy on his paper round with no helmet = ZERO IMO

Brilliant - I'm off to rob a bank and use my bike as getaway transport.

It's very appropriate.

Only if you misunderstand both evolution and the effectiveness of bike helmets 🙂

My kids always wear helmets on their bikes, because they tend to fall off a lot at precisely the sort of speeds at which helmets are effective. This is also why you see a lot of kids wearing helmets in countries where adult helmet-wearing is not as common.

I always wear a helmet when on 'proper' rides, or while riding my MTB.

My ride to work is 2.5 miles of mainly bike paths, riding a Yuba Mundo cargo bike at relatively low speeds. Sometimes I wear my helmet for this, sometimes I don't.

(I already have two kids, so my genes are already passed on. Any Darwin-related points are not really applicable.)

Shall we bring up the study that showed cars gave more space when overtaking non-helmet wearing cyclists?

Was that the study where the guy wore a wig to pretend to be female or something like that and cars gave him an even bigger space?

If that's the case, maybe blonde wigs should be made compulsory....?

[img] [/img]

good
mine saved my bacon last night... probably.

Only if you misunderstand both evolution and the effectiveness of bike helmets

Which I don't.

LHS - sorry Your position is untenable. Like you I have read much of the original research and it is baldly flawed, far from proving anything, counter-intuitive and contradictory.

Until the evidence base is better there is no case whatsoever for believing that cycle helmets give significant protection against major injuries - simply because there is no reliable research to show this

I have never seen any piece of " research" that shows helmets to be effective that does not have major flaws in it.

The study you posted last time we had this argument has these major flaws that will give massive false positives and is discredited. You claim to be a scientist and to follow the evidence but you accept these flawed research as gospel while poo pooing anything that does not show the results you want.

The flaws are -
self selecting sample
No allowance for risk compensation
No allowance for helmets potential to cause injuries
Plus other more minor methodological flaws

If helmets gave the massive improvements to safety that this sort of study you posted shows shows I would expect it to show up in whole population studies which don't have these flaws ( but may have others). However several whole population studies over time don't show any improvement in head injury rates as helmet wearing rates rise. This is not one piece of discredited research but many studies over years in different countries.

You or no one who claims helmets to be effective has given any explanation for this.

All I ask is for an evidence based practise not based on cant and supposition and badly flawed research.

If two pieces of evidence point in different directions an explanation is needed as to why or both become suspect.

TJ, just so I'm clear;

Is your stance "there is no evidence, therefore we don't know for sure whether helmets work," or is it "there is no evidence, therefore helmets don't work until we prove that they do"?

I can fully get behind the former, but the latter would be the ravings of a madman. Obviously, more R&D is needed, and minds should be open(*) to the idea that just because we think something works a certain way doesn't mean that it does. But you do seem from your edits to be tending towards the latter, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

(* - which will happen if we don't wear helmets, ho ho!)

counter-intuitive and contradictory.

"counter-intuitive" can hardly be a criticism in itself - many obvious things are quite wrong and vice versa!