[Closed] bike company sent invoice year later ..

Changed my viewpoint slightly and calling the OP a chancer!

Nowt wrong with that mind but when called on it I think you should probably fess up and move on. Even the most inept financially would clock if a Canyon's worth of cash had been taken from your account/credit card. You just would. I'd like to think I'm honest but I'm clearly not as I have got to confess I wouldn't be saying too much and waiting to see if they remembered. When they did however I'd pay up as I expected to right at the start.

The change in value is because of the exchange rate. I think it's fair enough that you only pay what it would have cost when the rate was what it was when you should have paid.

But you should still be paying and be honest to yourself that you knew you hadn't. You might get away with not, but you should.

Well on the 30th June 2016, I had a crash replacement frame and fork delivered from Canyon, but they never sent me a bill.
Today seven months later, I get an email from them with an invoice attached for £650, and I have to pay within ten days.

Looks like they're doing a bit of financial tidying up.

Brosnan's first wage is clearly due.

Do people really not know when that much money has not left an account? I was on the phone to Apple over a 3.80 subscription to OS Maps I forgot I bought.

Junkyard

[i]skids - Member 
You can either pay for the bike, or wait for the debt collectors to show up.

Gary_M - Member ?If you bought a bike surely you must know whether you paid last January or not

If you haven't paid, then you need to. Simple as that. It's not the bike companies fault you can't manage your money![/i]

You can be honest without being patronising

You owe them whatever the price of the ike was when you "purchased" it.

Yes, they should have taken the money when you gave them your payment details.
But in their defence, you ust have known that the money had not been taken from your acount and you also probably heard that they were having the "difficulties" refered to further up the thread.

I'm cleary an idiot / a mug / too honest (delete as you choose) as I would have contacted them long before now.

I'm pretty certain that their site stated something to do with the fact that their prices were in Euro and exchange rates could affect prices at little notice (or mabe that was another German direct buy brand) so if that's the reason for the price increase then you may be out of luck.

I would agree with those that are saying you should only have to pay the price you agreed on - but if that was in Euro then you may be out of luck with the exchange rate change.

Be interested on how this pans out.

Si

I'm pretty certain that their site stated something to do with the fact that their prices were in Euro and exchange rates could affect prices at little notice (or mabe that was another German direct buy brand) so if that's the reason for the price increase then you may be out of luck.

I would agree with those that are saying you should only have to pay the price you agreed on - but if that was in Euro then you may be out of luck with the exchange rate change.

That's a good point, I'd be inclined to offer to pay them what it would've cost in £ if it had all gone through when I originally paid for it, or they can have the bike back...

Speaking of which, I've still got a motorbike end can sat in my desk drawer at work that I was sent in error by the manufacturer (they sent me two when I ordered and paid for one, I sent them an email telling them their mistake and asking for a return postage form so I could get it back to them, and have heard nothing since...about 2 years ago)

I don't see how returning the bike is an option.

Unfortunately I'd suggest you need to pay, I think the original price is fair rather than the new one so I'd explore that with them. Its a poor oversight on their behalf but I'd settle before it gets messy. Im sure their T&C's and terms of contract are tight so the advice to ignore it is probably misjudged (or a joke I've misread).

Tell them you never received the bike and didn't chase it because they didn't take the money. Good luck.

FFS, don't do this. That's outright theft.

I don't see how returning the bike is an option.

It's a legitimate solution from the OP; "I can't pay, but you can have the bike back." It's not really in their interest, but (like everyone here) I'm not sure of the OP's obligation to pay given the time that's elapsed.

If anything good has come of this thread, I now have a list of people I won't do business with in the classifieds...

From memory, the limit on this sort of debt is several years not one year so it's still a liability. Obviously you know that so I'd go with the post that suggests contacting them for payment terms or at least your initial payment agreement to be honoured.

That applies a credit agreement, which he doesn't have.

He does however have a convenient way of not noticing many £k not leaving his account 🙂

That's a good point, I'd be inclined to offer to pay them what it would've cost in £ if it had all gone through when I originally paid for it, or they can have the bike back...

That to me has to be the solution I can't see how you can wiggle out of paying outright, even if that's just morally. But OTOH, your purchasing decisions may have been made and timed to coincide with a strong exchange rate, hence a good price in £. They failed to complete, the FX has gone against them in that what you agreed to pay them in £ is now worth less € to them (or another way, they think you still owe them a sum of € which they've now converted to £ at today's utopian rate hence why the bill is 15% higher)

That can't be accepted. Otherwise they could hedge foreign transactions and then bill you when the rate changes in their favour as a business model.

I've dealt with Canyon when I bought a bike from them. I would suggest filling in an online contact form or emailing their customer services to politely query the amount. That should buy you a good 18 months grace.

chancer - absolute chancer, do the right thing and pay them what you owe them

I don't buy the 'I'm crap with finances' line at all, you'd notice if someone took 1-2-3-4k out of your bank I'm sure, turning a blind eye and assuming 'you've got away with it' is all this thread screams to me

yes its crap of them to have not requested it much much much much sooner, an error by a human maybe who knows, but you have a bike worth a fair bit of money you've used and enjoyed for free, just pay the bill

I'm not sure of the OP's obligation to pay given the time that's elapsed.

It'll depend on the contract and law governing it (not sure German consumer law works outside of Germany!) but in England it'd need 6 years for the debt to expire.

Loving all the folk that want to get away without paying.

Honesty and decency seems in short supply. Do none of you ever make any mistakes?

I suspect what's happened is that they use a 2 stage payment process - they 'reserve' the funds with your bank at the point of purchase intending to actually collect the money on despatch.

The first part happened - ie. they confirmed you had the funds and the money was put aside.

They then failed to do the second part of the process by actually withdrawing the money.

Amex always used to work that way but other Acquirers allow this method of processing where there may be a delay between order and despatch.

An audit's now picked up the problem so they contact people to get the money.

Price payable is the price when goods/service provided. Canyon will have no luck whatsoever trying to secure the higher price.

I don't buy the 'I'm crap with finances' line at all,

An attempt was made 8)

I don't buy the 'I'm crap with finances' line at all

Given he can't handle capital letters, sentences, punctuation, spaces or spelling I can believe that he is utterly dire at finances.

My wife has just had this with a £300 handbag, although only after a month. She sent a pretty stiffly worded letter to them about how it was unacceptable to demand money from people on the company's terms a significant time after payment due to their cock up when the buyer's financial situation is likely to have changed within the intervening period. They agreed, took money on her terms and gave her a discount code. Which is probably the appropriate solution here, even if it's paying in installments to the value agreed when you bought the bike.

Just dont mention the war and I think you'll get away with it.

You morally and legally owe Canyon for the bike they delivered.

Unless it is still in the box how can anyone say to send it back? You have used it, you have accepted it as suitable goods.

Is the invoice for the same amount as it was last year when you bought the bike? Or is it a different amount when the exchange rate is applied? If it's in Euros then it was in Euros last year. If they have applied today's exchange rate then that is out of order. Pay what you agreed last year.

"I'm crap with money" if you didn't notice a few thousand pounds not leaving your account then you need an accountant. Being self employed does not excuse you from paying for goods that you have received. "Money is a bit tight now". Tough. Manage your money better.

legally owe Canyon

Are you sure about that?

seems to me the problem is with their accounts department

It's not like they would have shipped out several thousand pounds worth of bike to a customer without taking payment at the time is it... it's not the OPs fault if they have lost the records of this transaction.

bearnecessities - Member

legally owe Canyon

Are you sure about that?

Why wouldn't he?

[i]It's not like they would have shipped out several thousand pounds worth of bike to a customer without taking payment at the time is it... it's not the OPs fault if they have lost the records of this transaction.[/i]

See my explanation. It's happened to me with an Amex card purchase.

Perfectly possible -particularly as they switched computer systems at about the time the problem occurred.

cynic-al - Member 
It'll depend on the contract and law governing it (not sure German consumer law works outside of Germany!) but in England it'd need 6 years for the debt to expire.

It's not debt though when you've given them the card details and they failed to charge it. That's their problem.

I can't find the details any more but long time ago I had some stuff that realised a year or so later a company hadn't charged me for and read somewhere there's a limit after which you can consider the item yours if you've made reasonable attempts to notify them. I'd pointed out the mistake to them but they didn't do anything about it. My obligations were complete. Walked away with free item.

Anyway, in this case if they've sent an invoice then you're obliged to pay. I would however only pay what was agreed at the time. Regardless of exchange rates, if you have emails or whatever that state the price in UK £ then you pay that.

Could even be cheeky and charge them for storage over the year as it's been their item up until now 😀

@cynic-al: a german company whose sale contracts are subject to german law can sue a uk customer; it's no different to english company with contract in english law suing german customer for non-payment.
I still say the OP should talk direct with Canyon - call them, don't email - and offer to pay but on his terms; discounted price, spread payments etc. See my earlier post.
Returning a used item which is not faulty is a complete non-starter.
@bearnecessities: agree that some of the posters have outed themselves as individuals to avoid when selling.

reasonable attempts to notify them

That's the kicker. Anyway, I think it's a debt for several years. You can't just wait a year 🙂

legally owe Canyon

Are you sure about that?

I'd be willing to bet that somewhere in the small print, or at the bottom of the invoice, or the Ts&Cs that you accept when making a purchase, there are words along the lines of:

"All goods remain the property of [company] until payment has been received in full."

@bearnecessities: agree that some of the posters have outed themselves as individuals to avoid when selling.

Wasn't me that said that.

I'm just curious as to the actual legal position.

I'd be willing to be there's another clause that says all transactions are on the basis of advance payment unless otherwise agreed

It's not the OPs fault if the company has no record of this payment, nor that if in the intervening 12 months has thrown away his CC statement/moved house/changed banks etc.

@bearnecessities; my mistake but I still agree with whoever said it.

Almost certainly the legal obligation to pay for the goods is still in place. A mistake on behalf of one party (particularly an administrative one) does not cause the original contract to be amended.

However, when I bought a Canyon in 2015 their Ts & Cs did say
"(2) Unless expressly otherwise agreed by us, all shipments by us shall require advance payment (to be made in the manner specified in our order form) upon receipt of an invoice (which may be sent by e-mail and included in our notice of acceptance)."

So at the very least there would be a strong argument from a customer service point of view to give the OP the starting argument that "I thought you took the money on dispatch and I didn't check". Some people's buying habits are chaotic enough not to notice.

I would say that the payment terms of the contract though are not so fundamental to contract that a mistake with them cannot be legitimately rectified by either party. So the OP is going to have to rely on Canyon's customer service skills (and an absence of their willingness to start legal proceedings) to negotiate a phased or delayed payment plan.

However, I would say that the price agreed in the order is fundamental to the contract, and they cannot change that retrospectively no matter how long a period it has been.

On retention of title, my contract with Canyon says:
"6. Retention of Title and Resale

(1) We retain legal title to any product supplied by us until the purchase price (including VAT and shipping costs) for such product has been fully paid."

i.e. as suggested by Pierre. You can't just hide behind "you forgot to take the money".

Personally I think you should just pay the original amount if it was a confirmed price in £'s
But I do wonder what would happen if you tell them you never received it, and as you weren't charged just gave up waiting

But I do wonder what would happen if you tell them you never received it, and as you weren't charged just gave up waiting

Is it worth a potential fraud conviction to find out?

I would send it back and get a new one.

A year later, you could be on the verge of bankruptcy, and this tips you over.

It's unreasonable to expect the customer to suddenly pay. A year back the 2or4k might not have been noticed, but brexit has brought hard times for some.

Certainly seems unfair for the buyer rather than the company.

The crap with finances is a decent excuse - I check my bank account once every 6 months or less, if I've paid for something I expect that money to come out if my account there and then.

Larkim: Without wanting to sound nosey, but is that from a finance contract by any chance?

bearnecessities and larkim - If Canyon claim retention of title on pro-forma purchases haven't they shot themselves in the foot with this purchase?

If they have retention of title then the OP could just offer them the bike back and they would have to accept it.

(1) We retain legal title to any product supplied by us until the purchase price (including VAT and shipping costs) for such product has been fully paid."

That sounds like... new bike day to me. OP just says "Good point. I don't have any money so please collect my one year old bike. While you're at it bring me one of those new ones at the same time and I'll pay for it there and then".

frankconway - Member

As Canyon are German your contract with them is subject to German law.

Not necessarily, it could be subject to any law - depends on the contract.

You mentioned consumer law in your first post which is why I referred to it. You then referred to contract law. You seem confused.

It's not debt though when you've given them the card details and they failed to charge it. That's their problem.

Sorry, that's bollocks, unless there's a contractual term to that effect.

Canyon being canyon said in their email to me yesterday, that I needed to pay invoice within ten days using the bank details included. Guess what? No bank details included.
They are so incompetent

I've no idea whether OP is legally obliged to make a payment (in his shoes I'd offer to pay it at the same price in £ as it was at the time of sale, possibly in installments, and certainly not within 10 days if I didn't have much cash currently) but those quoting terms of a contract should bear in mind that most contracts have totally unenforceable clauses in them - that's where the law matters.

I'm not familiar enough with English, let alone German, consumer laws, nor which would strictly apply in this case. But just because it says something in a contract doesn't mean you're going to be bound to it.

Tell them you never received the bike and didn't chase it because they didn't take the money. Good luck.

good luck indeed. A conviction for fraud by false representation will do wonders for your future.

As per many other posts- contact them and pay the price agreed at the time of the order on terms you can manage.