[Closed] bike company sent invoice year later ..

Check to see whether or not you paid it last January then call them to discuss it.

Has the amount gone up or down?

gone up , can i handle a better price out of them than when i bought it , as its there fault not mine and cash is tight at mo , or send it back ?

a year? Blimey, any money earmarked would be long gone if that was me.

theyve lost it as far as im concerned.

Did you not pay for it last year then?

Deffo wouldn't pay anymore if you originally supplied them with your payment details. I guess it wasn't a large value item as you didn't notice it still in your account.

If you haven't paid i'd pay up.

If you bought a bike surely you must know whether you paid last January or not?

Yeah, you've had it so you need to pay up but I certainly wouldn't pay more than once or more than the original price.

ok checked and doesn't look like it went out my acc , tbh i not that good at keeping track of my ins and outs, surly i can handle with them as they screwed up ?

If you know that you have not paid then you ought to cover it now. If things are tight at the moment you might contact them and say as the invoice is so late you will pay it next month.

I'd suggest either paying them the original amount or offering to return the bike. Not noticing you hadn't paid for it isn't the strongest of arguments IMHO!

I wonder if someone at their end put the wrong year into their system when they entered the transaction last year?

If you haven't paid, then you need to. Simple as that. It's not the bike companies fault you can't manage your money!

How much we talking? Roughly.

OP says bike company and others inferring this means a bike - might be much less. Is there a possibility the original payment was declined by your bank because you had insufficient funds at the time?

Irrelevant though - you owe it. The delay means you should be able to negotiate paying it back in instalments etc.

well clearly i owe them for the goods but this is crazy , a year later , i am self employed and if i messed up like that id let it go !

You have messed up like that. Just because it's in your favour doesn't make it their fault. You've both been slacking.

You need to pay, at the lower price maybe, but still pay up.

It's the right thing to do.

Canyon? Does this go back to when they were having all sort of delivery and processing issues too?

Canyon? I had a reminder the other day, and just got an email saying they've taken payment.

Now... when you bear in mind I'd already paid this for instock items and then they didn't send the most crucial component and then had none for months rendering my bike useless, to then try and charge me again a year later with card details they had no permission to use again has seriously wound me up.

you pay the amount you originally agreed on as that was the contract or you can give the bike back.

yes its canyon and was during their "bad time " going to push for reduced price or send it back .

i am self employed and if i messed up like that id let it go !

Your own business practices are exactly that, your own. It's a little unfair to expect everyone else to be as generous and as understanding as yourself. The reasonable response lies within the general consensus, which judging by this thread is to pay up, no more than the original amount and in instalments if you need to- which sounds fair to me 🙂

I'd be waiting for follow-up invoices and letters before I contacted them particularly if I was short of cash

in the meantime, just start putting money to one side in readiness of settling

then start with the bargaining on what they will accept now (beginning at market value of the bike now...say 40% of its original value) and work from there

they may settle...tho morally, the STW hive mind will castigate you and send you unto Coventry

It's not the bike companies fault you can't manage your money!

But if he provided payment details and they have not taken payment, it sounds to be very much their fault. He managed his side of the deal.

And I assume we're not talking trade here, in which case most people would automatically assume payment has been taken if they receive the product.

I think it would be more than fair to negotiate a lower price to compensate for any inconvenience caused. Sending a bill a year after purchase is taking the piss.

You can either pay for the bike, or wait for the debt collectors to show up.

you didn't do anything stupid like sign up to a buy now pay later scheme????

no , nothing like that i gave them my card details like when i bought my first bike off them it turned up 2 or 3 weeks later , then nothing else was said .

as for the price increase, was the company German, did they invoice you in sterling or euro?

Just ignore it, it will eventually go away.

as for the price increase, was the company German, did they invoice you in sterling or euro?

Good point. It's all brexit's fault

As Canyon are German your contract with them is subject to German law.

German consumer law is not my specialist subject but I would be surprised if they decide to write this off - unless it's low value.

If item has been used and is not defective there is no right of return.

The only way this will go away is if the supplier decides it should.

OP should contact Canyon to discuss sensibly; suggest a 12 month instalment plan based on original price or a discounted price for payment in 30 days or full payment of original price next January.

Right. So rather than you not paying it, they didn't take the payment. Don't see how that is the OP's fault.

as for the price increase, was the company German, did they invoice you in sterling or euro?
Good point. It's all brexit's fault

nothing to do with Brexit as such, just pointing out currency fluctuations. For the OP to check exactly what the contract states, did it state euros or sterling. The former you pay the higher price as their price hasn't changed, the later you pay the lower price as your price hasn't changed.

Just a thought, this doesn't help the OP, a cheque never expires, if the recipient doesn't cash it doesn't mean it can't be cashed as and when they feel like it. After 6 months the specific cheque isn't valid but the debt still is.

I know the debt isn't a cheque, but i doubt the principle is different.

Aye, but the thing that confuses me is that this wasn't any kind of credit agreement - so the term invoice is a bit misleading, in the sense of using it to now call in the debt.

My question (that I don't know the answer to) is [i]actually[/i] is it a debt, if the customer never agreed to taking on a debt?

(Moral schnizzle aside)

If you sent them your details then you've done your side of the transaction. They then posted it out to you, they wouldn't do that without payment clearing so something has gone pretty catastrophically wrong at there end. To then not pick it up is poor.

I can't remember the contract terms when I bought mine but I'd be fairly sure they're outside their bit of them. It's unreasonable to expect payment now so use it to negotiate payment terms that suit you based on the original invoice price. Although you weaken your own defence slightly by not noticing that £1k+ hasn't been taken from your account.

You gave them your details but only got bill today. So are they not just going to request the money from your bank as per what they should of done 12 months ago. Or have they sent you a request for payment....that you never received today as you moved house 6 months ago 😉

Play your cards right and you could get a free bike out of this, first thing is to contact your bank/card company and get them to block any payments to Canyon, I've got no morals when it comes to big companies, stuff em, to send you a bill a year later is a shambles. Tell them you never received the bike and didn't chase it because they didn't take the money. Good luck.

Authorisation of a transaction and taking the funds are two different things in the domain of online payments

If an authorisation isn't taken within a certain period then it expires and any funds held against it are released.

OP will have had the funds held but not passed to the seller via the authorisation. Once it expires then the seller can't complete on that transaction and really - it's their own fault.

Morally you have an obligation - legally i haven't a clue where you stand.

I see the holier than thow keyboard warriors are out.
They should have taken payment when you provided details. You certainly shouldn't be paying more than the original agreed price for it. It's not your fault and not really your problem, but I'd probably pay if I could.

They took a month to take payment for my bike ordered around the same time. I would double check your bank statements, but I did notice that I had a few grand more than expected in the bank!

As a minimum, I would expect them to contact you in person to apologise for their cock-up, not just send you an incorrect invoice. I wouldn't be paying anything based on that - given that the amount is wrong, how can you be sure that it does not relate to a completely different transaction?

Sounds like an BT-esque shambles, and I guess you'll have to try to find an actual human to talk to, which may be easier said than done.

Does the difference relate to currency changes? Was the agreed price in Euro or GBP?

I see the holier than thow keyboard warriors are out.

If you bought a bike surely you must know whether you paid last January or not?

STW, innit. Several thousand pound evidently doesn't make a dent. 8)

i gave them my card details like when i bought my first bike off them

Surely the bike is now ex-demo with several months worth of wear so worth much less 😉

Changed my viewpoint slightly and calling the OP a chancer!

Nowt wrong with that mind but when called on it I think you should probably fess up and move on. Even the most inept financially would clock if a Canyon's worth of cash had been taken from your account/credit card. You just would. I'd like to think I'm honest but I'm clearly not as I have got to confess I wouldn't be saying too much and waiting to see if they remembered. When they did however I'd pay up as I expected to right at the start.

The change in value is because of the exchange rate. I think it's fair enough that you only pay what it would have cost when the rate was what it was when you should have paid.

But you should still be paying and be honest to yourself that you knew you hadn't. You might get away with not, but you should.

Well on the 30th June 2016, I had a crash replacement frame and fork delivered from Canyon, but they never sent me a bill.
Today seven months later, I get an email from them with an invoice attached for £650, and I have to pay within ten days.

Looks like they're doing a bit of financial tidying up.

Brosnan's first wage is clearly due.

Do people really not know when that much money has not left an account? I was on the phone to Apple over a 3.80 subscription to OS Maps I forgot I bought.

Junkyard

[i]skids - Member 
You can either pay for the bike, or wait for the debt collectors to show up.

Gary_M - Member ?If you bought a bike surely you must know whether you paid last January or not

If you haven't paid, then you need to. Simple as that. It's not the bike companies fault you can't manage your money![/i]

You can be honest without being patronising

You owe them whatever the price of the ike was when you "purchased" it.

Yes, they should have taken the money when you gave them your payment details.
But in their defence, you ust have known that the money had not been taken from your acount and you also probably heard that they were having the "difficulties" refered to further up the thread.

I'm cleary an idiot / a mug / too honest (delete as you choose) as I would have contacted them long before now.

I'm pretty certain that their site stated something to do with the fact that their prices were in Euro and exchange rates could affect prices at little notice (or mabe that was another German direct buy brand) so if that's the reason for the price increase then you may be out of luck.

I would agree with those that are saying you should only have to pay the price you agreed on - but if that was in Euro then you may be out of luck with the exchange rate change.

Be interested on how this pans out.

Si

I'm pretty certain that their site stated something to do with the fact that their prices were in Euro and exchange rates could affect prices at little notice (or mabe that was another German direct buy brand) so if that's the reason for the price increase then you may be out of luck.

I would agree with those that are saying you should only have to pay the price you agreed on - but if that was in Euro then you may be out of luck with the exchange rate change.

That's a good point, I'd be inclined to offer to pay them what it would've cost in £ if it had all gone through when I originally paid for it, or they can have the bike back...

Speaking of which, I've still got a motorbike end can sat in my desk drawer at work that I was sent in error by the manufacturer (they sent me two when I ordered and paid for one, I sent them an email telling them their mistake and asking for a return postage form so I could get it back to them, and have heard nothing since...about 2 years ago)

I don't see how returning the bike is an option.

Unfortunately I'd suggest you need to pay, I think the original price is fair rather than the new one so I'd explore that with them. Its a poor oversight on their behalf but I'd settle before it gets messy. Im sure their T&C's and terms of contract are tight so the advice to ignore it is probably misjudged (or a joke I've misread).

Tell them you never received the bike and didn't chase it because they didn't take the money. Good luck.

FFS, don't do this. That's outright theft.

I don't see how returning the bike is an option.

It's a legitimate solution from the OP; "I can't pay, but you can have the bike back." It's not really in their interest, but (like everyone here) I'm not sure of the OP's obligation to pay given the time that's elapsed.

If anything good has come of this thread, I now have a list of people I won't do business with in the classifieds...

From memory, the limit on this sort of debt is several years not one year so it's still a liability. Obviously you know that so I'd go with the post that suggests contacting them for payment terms or at least your initial payment agreement to be honoured.

That applies a credit agreement, which he doesn't have.

He does however have a convenient way of not noticing many £k not leaving his account 🙂

That's a good point, I'd be inclined to offer to pay them what it would've cost in £ if it had all gone through when I originally paid for it, or they can have the bike back...

That to me has to be the solution I can't see how you can wiggle out of paying outright, even if that's just morally. But OTOH, your purchasing decisions may have been made and timed to coincide with a strong exchange rate, hence a good price in £. They failed to complete, the FX has gone against them in that what you agreed to pay them in £ is now worth less € to them (or another way, they think you still owe them a sum of € which they've now converted to £ at today's utopian rate hence why the bill is 15% higher)

That can't be accepted. Otherwise they could hedge foreign transactions and then bill you when the rate changes in their favour as a business model.

I've dealt with Canyon when I bought a bike from them. I would suggest filling in an online contact form or emailing their customer services to politely query the amount. That should buy you a good 18 months grace.

chancer - absolute chancer, do the right thing and pay them what you owe them

I don't buy the 'I'm crap with finances' line at all, you'd notice if someone took 1-2-3-4k out of your bank I'm sure, turning a blind eye and assuming 'you've got away with it' is all this thread screams to me

yes its crap of them to have not requested it much much much much sooner, an error by a human maybe who knows, but you have a bike worth a fair bit of money you've used and enjoyed for free, just pay the bill

I'm not sure of the OP's obligation to pay given the time that's elapsed.

It'll depend on the contract and law governing it (not sure German consumer law works outside of Germany!) but in England it'd need 6 years for the debt to expire.

Loving all the folk that want to get away without paying.

Honesty and decency seems in short supply. Do none of you ever make any mistakes?

I suspect what's happened is that they use a 2 stage payment process - they 'reserve' the funds with your bank at the point of purchase intending to actually collect the money on despatch.

The first part happened - ie. they confirmed you had the funds and the money was put aside.

They then failed to do the second part of the process by actually withdrawing the money.

Amex always used to work that way but other Acquirers allow this method of processing where there may be a delay between order and despatch.

An audit's now picked up the problem so they contact people to get the money.

Price payable is the price when goods/service provided. Canyon will have no luck whatsoever trying to secure the higher price.

I don't buy the 'I'm crap with finances' line at all,

An attempt was made 8)

I don't buy the 'I'm crap with finances' line at all

Given he can't handle capital letters, sentences, punctuation, spaces or spelling I can believe that he is utterly dire at finances.

My wife has just had this with a £300 handbag, although only after a month. She sent a pretty stiffly worded letter to them about how it was unacceptable to demand money from people on the company's terms a significant time after payment due to their cock up when the buyer's financial situation is likely to have changed within the intervening period. They agreed, took money on her terms and gave her a discount code. Which is probably the appropriate solution here, even if it's paying in installments to the value agreed when you bought the bike.

Just dont mention the war and I think you'll get away with it.

You morally and legally owe Canyon for the bike they delivered.

Unless it is still in the box how can anyone say to send it back? You have used it, you have accepted it as suitable goods.

Is the invoice for the same amount as it was last year when you bought the bike? Or is it a different amount when the exchange rate is applied? If it's in Euros then it was in Euros last year. If they have applied today's exchange rate then that is out of order. Pay what you agreed last year.

"I'm crap with money" if you didn't notice a few thousand pounds not leaving your account then you need an accountant. Being self employed does not excuse you from paying for goods that you have received. "Money is a bit tight now". Tough. Manage your money better.

legally owe Canyon

Are you sure about that?

seems to me the problem is with their accounts department

It's not like they would have shipped out several thousand pounds worth of bike to a customer without taking payment at the time is it... it's not the OPs fault if they have lost the records of this transaction.

bearnecessities - Member

legally owe Canyon

Are you sure about that?

Why wouldn't he?

[i]It's not like they would have shipped out several thousand pounds worth of bike to a customer without taking payment at the time is it... it's not the OPs fault if they have lost the records of this transaction.[/i]

See my explanation. It's happened to me with an Amex card purchase.

Perfectly possible -particularly as they switched computer systems at about the time the problem occurred.

cynic-al - Member 
It'll depend on the contract and law governing it (not sure German consumer law works outside of Germany!) but in England it'd need 6 years for the debt to expire.

It's not debt though when you've given them the card details and they failed to charge it. That's their problem.

I can't find the details any more but long time ago I had some stuff that realised a year or so later a company hadn't charged me for and read somewhere there's a limit after which you can consider the item yours if you've made reasonable attempts to notify them. I'd pointed out the mistake to them but they didn't do anything about it. My obligations were complete. Walked away with free item.

Anyway, in this case if they've sent an invoice then you're obliged to pay. I would however only pay what was agreed at the time. Regardless of exchange rates, if you have emails or whatever that state the price in UK £ then you pay that.

Could even be cheeky and charge them for storage over the year as it's been their item up until now 😀

@cynic-al: a german company whose sale contracts are subject to german law can sue a uk customer; it's no different to english company with contract in english law suing german customer for non-payment.
I still say the OP should talk direct with Canyon - call them, don't email - and offer to pay but on his terms; discounted price, spread payments etc. See my earlier post.
Returning a used item which is not faulty is a complete non-starter.
@bearnecessities: agree that some of the posters have outed themselves as individuals to avoid when selling.

reasonable attempts to notify them

That's the kicker. Anyway, I think it's a debt for several years. You can't just wait a year 🙂

legally owe Canyon

Are you sure about that?

I'd be willing to bet that somewhere in the small print, or at the bottom of the invoice, or the Ts&Cs that you accept when making a purchase, there are words along the lines of:

"All goods remain the property of [company] until payment has been received in full."

@bearnecessities: agree that some of the posters have outed themselves as individuals to avoid when selling.

Wasn't me that said that.

I'm just curious as to the actual legal position.

I'd be willing to be there's another clause that says all transactions are on the basis of advance payment unless otherwise agreed

It's not the OPs fault if the company has no record of this payment, nor that if in the intervening 12 months has thrown away his CC statement/moved house/changed banks etc.

@bearnecessities; my mistake but I still agree with whoever said it.

Almost certainly the legal obligation to pay for the goods is still in place. A mistake on behalf of one party (particularly an administrative one) does not cause the original contract to be amended.

However, when I bought a Canyon in 2015 their Ts & Cs did say
"(2) Unless expressly otherwise agreed by us, all shipments by us shall require advance payment (to be made in the manner specified in our order form) upon receipt of an invoice (which may be sent by e-mail and included in our notice of acceptance)."

So at the very least there would be a strong argument from a customer service point of view to give the OP the starting argument that "I thought you took the money on dispatch and I didn't check". Some people's buying habits are chaotic enough not to notice.

I would say that the payment terms of the contract though are not so fundamental to contract that a mistake with them cannot be legitimately rectified by either party. So the OP is going to have to rely on Canyon's customer service skills (and an absence of their willingness to start legal proceedings) to negotiate a phased or delayed payment plan.

However, I would say that the price agreed in the order is fundamental to the contract, and they cannot change that retrospectively no matter how long a period it has been.

On retention of title, my contract with Canyon says:
"6. Retention of Title and Resale

(1) We retain legal title to any product supplied by us until the purchase price (including VAT and shipping costs) for such product has been fully paid."

i.e. as suggested by Pierre. You can't just hide behind "you forgot to take the money".