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Also.. as he is omniscient why did he not create a world that worked out perfectly
because it/they realised that such a world would be endless ghastly torment. Perfection or bliss can only be temporary to have significance!
I've seen the matrix too 🙂 You have to remember though that this 'god'/YHWH entity created everything. 'He' could create everything to be perfect and harmonious as 'he' can supposedly see all possible outcomes for any given action that he/she/it may take.
a mountain bike is not just for Christians
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Christ on a bike.
Can't believe no-one has said that on this thread.
What is the difference between religious belief and mental illness? Discuss.
'He' could create everything to be perfect and harmonious
create us to enjoy boredom ? Perhaps that's beyond even a god...
Oh and I cant name a source but I'm pretty sure there are studies that have proved the positive effects of religion/belief on individuals (i.e. belief in a higher power getting them through bad times in their life)
I've no doubt there is however i doesnt make the existence of god true. if a doctor tells a dying man he will make a full recovery it doesnt make it true. It just makes him a bad doctor.
Ficticious potential outcomes will of course raise peoples spirits but I would rather me miserable than deluded.
Christ on a bike.Can't believe no-one has said that on this thread.
What is the difference between religious belief and mental illness? Discuss.
Agree, praying is very much like OCD
I have to say that's one of the weakest arguments for religion/god I've ever read.
It wasn't an argument. It was a statement of my belief. I'm not asking you to agree with it. In fact, I honestly don't really care what you think of it. It works for me, so I'm happy!
f you have an ounce of intellect religion is obvious nonsense
Ignorance is bliss...
If you have an ounce of intellect religion is obvious nonsense.
Some of the most intelligent people I have met have been Christians, some of the most stupid not.
As I've mentioned in may previous similar threads on this sort of topic the more I read and learn the more I get stuck in my agnosticism!
Works for me. Helps me through difficult times. Brings me happiness. I'm not asking anyone else to have to believe in the same way. You find your own path.
If religion was simply individuals choosing their own way through life in a passive and harmless way we would not be having this discussion.
Religion pervades and poisons everything. From the misguided and misinformed lobbying of politicians to ban stem cell research to the killing of millions in Africa by aids due to preaching the evil of Condom use. The dispropotionate respect it gets in every area of politics to the tax breaks that religious bodies receive. The cover provided by moderates to legitimise the treatment of women who choose to have abotions and are then imprisoned for life.
Its not vicars on bicycles and cucumber sandwiches its more cynical than that despite what religious zealots tell us about "friendly chats"!
Rudeboy - Ignorance is bliss is it. Well you would know wouldnt you.
If religion was simply individuals choosing their own way through life in a passive and harmless way we would not be having this discussion.
Where did I say that I follow any particular religion?
If you have an ounce of intellect religion is obvious nonsense.Some of the most intelligent people I have met have been Christians, some of the most stupid not.
As I've mentioned in may previous similar threads on this sort of topic the more I read and learn the more I get stuck in my agnosticism!
I'm with Hemingway on this "all thinking men are atheists"
I honestly don't really care what you think of it. It works for me,
so why bother saying ?
Rudeboy - Ignorance is bliss is it. Well you would know wouldnt you.
Yes, because I'm thick and stupid!
This thread is great, and i just want to add, Mark, you summed up everything i could ever say on this subject. Well said that man.
Christ cant Jew lot get back to biking talk? Your confuciousing the beJesus out of me. Allah this Budda**** is nonsense. What you should be Sikhing is the real meaning of life! Islam better than beef? If I slice my chainring into my Shinto will it bleed? Whatever a shedo on a bike can a Himdu better? Don’t take things so seriously…you could end up like Tom Cruise…..God what are those bright lights outside the window…………………Beam me up Scotty!
all thinking men are atheists
Well, my problem is I think too much and stay agnostic. I suppose I'll stop thinking when I have the answer - so atheists and the religious are the non-thinkers...perhaps.
all thinking men are atheists
too dogmatic for me. There may be a god - I don't envy it the task
Mark - I agree with more or less everything you say. Have you been watching thge series on TV about Christianity? Fascinating stuff. It just proves (to me)that the whole thing is a lie and a con. There seems little doubt that jesus existed but absolutely no proof that he was divine (or even claimed that he was) it was the early Christians who invented all the miracles etc and the Romans who made the new religion creditable. my partner is head of RE (named beliefs, philosophy and ethics now) at a large comprehensive school and has a degree in theology and she has always said that she believes in jesus - but as a teacher and maybe a proto-reveloutionary, but certainly not divine. He was a practicing Jew, by the way and never wanted to be anything else.
Because I was not brought up with any religion or exposure to any, I have never been brainwashed and like to think that I can see all of them for waht they are. there are attrractive points to most of 'em I suppose, particularly Buddhism, Hinduism and maybe sufism. But there would have to be, wouldn't there? If people want or feel the need to turn to supoerstition for whatever reason, fine - I wish they would just keep it to themselves and not involve themselves in education, politics or propaganda. Rant over.
I have to say I really do love watching documentaries on religion. The last one I watched was the Jesus the Jew programme a week or so ago that documented how Jesus was, as you say, a Jew and that's all he aspired to be. The Christian Faith was a creation of Paul and came a long time after Jesus's death. I particularly loved the part that argued that the baptism, that pillar of all Christian re-birth ceremonies, is actually purely a Jewish ceremony.
I find that the more I open my mind to religious literature, philosophy and history, the more atheist I become.
Oh and while I'm still trying to evade actually doing any proper work on issue 47 right now I'll have one last mini rant..
Religious children! 'This is a school predominantly for children of Christian faith'... Aargh!
No! It's a school predominantly for children who have christian parents. Children are not born with any particular faith. They are given one before they can even crap solid poo by their indoctrinating parents!
Now.. I'm going to do some work now.
🙂
If you have an ounce of intellect religion is obvious nonsense
That's just a lazy argument and, ironicaly, ignores much evidence to the contrary.
But do you not therefore get terribly frustrated that the leaders of your religion don't hold the same philosophy?
Prince Charles is the next head of the CofE; he's pretty tolerant of other faiths. The Archbishop of Canterbury seem slike a very reasonable and tolerant man.
It's a school predominantly for children who have christian parents.
Is this a Catholic school you keep going on about? Ignoring the fact that i can't see why an atheist would want their kid to go to a Catholic school, you'll find it's not non-Christians who are prevented from getting in, it's non-Catholics. Being a Catholic is rather different from being a Christan (for some) and seems almost more of a race than a religeon. You need Catholic parents (or an official conversion) to be a Catholic, not a belief in god or any sort of regulat church attendance.
They are given one before they can even crap solid poo by their indoctrinating parents!
As true for most things as for religeon.
Religion makes wars, blah, blah, words to that effect that I can't be bothered copying and pasting
I'm sure other causes would have been found by the starters of war. The second Gulf war was in the cause of capitalism as far as I can see. Capitalism also prevent some people getting into certain schools, through house prices and/or fees. It also causes suffering in the third world through exploitation.
It's nice to see that atheism is getting as fundamentalist as some religions. Is the next step on from the bus adverts some bloke standing in the town centre with a placard shouting about the non-existence of god? 🙂
It's nice to see that atheism is getting as fundamentalist as some religions
I'm opting for what I'm going to call "indifferent pantheism"
It's nice to see that atheism is getting as fundamentalist as some religions
Yeah, being told you are wrong, and not only that, but you are evil, deluded and bound for eternal torment is pretty unpleasant. The pity of "I'll pray for you" as if you are some how mentaly retarded and unable to spot the obvious truth in front of you and need someone else to take care of you. This is all pretty annoying and that approach will generally get you short shrift if you are selling religion or double glasing.
I would not view this as fundamental as I am willing to change my views based on evidence (independantly verifiable, peer reviewd and tested evidence) I am just not about to bow to a guy in a dress because his imaginary friend is bigger than me.
Not all are like this (Aunt and Uncle are both ordained and how no interest in converting people / brow beating them) but its starting to get annoying and while I wish happiness to all my tolerance is wearing thin.
Is it "fundamental" to be left alone with your personal beliefs?
SSP
Catholic schools were first set up by the Catholic Church to educate the children of the Irish Immigrants to Scotland and the North of England after the spud famine. The Irish tended to gravitate towards Church as a familiar point in difficult times, hence the setting up of Catholic schools.
If you were not Catholic, why would you send your kids to a school where even the majority of staff are Catholic? Or perhaps the imposition of Christian morality leads to better standards?
How many of you taking a pop at religion wouldtry to send your kids to the Local Catholic school if the alternative was cartheft comp?
No.. I'm talking about ALL faith schools.. the ones I can quote verbatim and have inspired my rants of late are actually local CofE schools.
I'm not singling out the catholic faith here, but ALL faiths that have the power to influence and select intake of schools.
There's a high school in Blackburn.. St Wilfreds. It's a faith school. CofE. It has a great educational record. very popular. The reason it's so good? It gets to cherry pick 80% of it's intake from the local middle class parishes on the outskirts of Blackburn. It's feeder schools are rural not inner city. It attracts very highly skilled and motivated teachers because the intake is so good. I know this as I was a teacher in the same area before I got out. I applied for a job there but couldn;t supply the neccessary religious references. I have an atheist friend with a 9 year old daughter. For the last year she has been a regular church goer with a whole bunch of other parents solely so she can get the vicar to sign the schools certificate of attendance for when she applies on behalf of her daughter to attend the school.
I have many other examples involving primary school choices and my own kids. My wife is a deputy head (a very good one, headhunted by county to be seconded into failing schools etc.. ) and her career has been restricted as she can't ever be a deputy or a head in a faith school as these specifically require management to be practicing christians.
The high school example demonstrates that the high achievement and over subscription of the school based on it's exam results is down to the fact it is allowed to select 80% of it's intake on the basis of faith and not ability. It's is just by chance that the kids who do get in come from outlying middle class parishes and families that have the resources to play the system and get their kids in by, in many cases, faking religious belief.
THIS is purely the source of my rant. The fact that religions have the power to directly affect the choices available to ALL of society whether we like it or not. And don't anyone, for a second, try and come back with the argument that the schools religious teachings and christian morality are the reason for the high results. It's purely a demographic result of having the power to select based on religious or faked religious beliefs.
Not that i'm against selective education. I went to a grammar school myself and passed a test of intellectual ability to get in. A test that was available to every child in the area regardless of belief systems adopted by their parents.
Since I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to expose myself and my kids to a belief system I find distasteful just so I can play the system I find myself at a disadvantage when it comes to my choices of how my kids are educated. If I was a believer or a cheat my kids would have a better chance it would seem.
Interesting to note, that many schools, colleges, universities, hospitals and charitable organisations have been founded and funded by religious organisations such as the CofE. Samaritans, Dr. Barnardo's, the Sally Army, etc. I'm struggling to think of a long-established major institution like these, that is known for being Atheist.
And it's mainly religious-based charities that continue to donate to the upkeep of such institutions.
If those with faith are thick and stupid (like me), are Atheists selfish and greedy?
Pantheism seems to have been Einstein's choice also:
Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestation of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this sense alone, I am a deeply religious man.
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
I kind of consider the various organised religions to be man's way of trying to interpret and explain "unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it", which have then been corrupted in various ways in the search for power, control, wealth and influence.
It's nice to see that atheism is getting as fundamentalist as some religions
I make no apologies for the fact I am proactive in that respect. I am not benign in my pursuit and promotion of atheism in the same way that no religion is. The difference is I would love to be but while organised religions continue with a policy of 'conversion of the heathen' and it's continued unwanted interference in the lives of the rest of us by restricting choices and the influence of political issues, then I'll give as much preaching as I get.
Fundamentalist is a little aggressive in light of how it's often used interchangeably with 'terrorist'. I'm not going that far.. so I prefer the term 'proactive atheist' 🙂
We didn't get our kids into the nearest primary school to us because it's a catholic school and we're not Catholic. Denied access because of religion.
We wouldn't be able to get our daughter into the best school in the town because we don't live in the right area. Denied access because of money.
What's the difference?
Fundamentalist is a little aggressive in light of how it's often used interchangeably with 'terrorist'. I'm not going that far.. so I prefer the term 'proactive atheist'
🙂
I always think Richard Dawkins looks one rant away from strapping on an explosive waistcoat.
are Atheists selfish and greedy?
no, but perhaps they don't have the same need to flock together as religionists ? Indeed, perhaps the flocking is the important part and the made-up-god bit is just an excuse ?
perhaps the flocking is the important part and the made-up-god bit is just an excuse ?
Amen to that Brother Simon 😉
The sharing of common experiences and beliefs is, I'm sure, in-built into humans. It has great upsides, but also great downsides.
Rudeboy, there have been plenty of other institutions set up by philanthropists which aren't specifically associated with religion. If many of these "long-established" places seem to have an overtone of religious faith, it's because until relatively recently in our society religion was extremely powerful and failure to conform with it would result in you being persecuted or marginalised. The chances that you could become rich or influential enough to set up a school or a hospital would be pretty slim if you wore your lack of religious belief on your sleeve.
Interesting that faith schools are mentioned. Mark makes some very valid points but then again not all faith schools give their pupils an academic advantage. Anyone who went to one of Reg Vardy's "Academies" and was taught that evolution and creationism were "equally valid perspectives" would come out pretty disadvantaged if they wanted to pursue a career in a scientific field.
Money is equal. Having it or not does not depend on belief. The fact you don't have it today does not preclude you having it tomorrow. In that respect it is much more within your power to change the situation and get the extra money required for a private education than it is to change your beliefs.. unless of course you fake it, as many do.
But if you want to have a debate about the education system and how money influences choice I can be just as vociferous on that topic too.. Doesn't make either of them right though and pointing out a flaw elsewhere in the education system doesn't by default justify the other.
Both are an injustice.. lets fix them both! 🙂
Interesting that faith schools are mentioned. Mark makes some very valid points but then again not all faith schools give their pupils an academic advantage.
I know a lot of people who are gutted that the Church of England is funding a new academy in our town. It means that they won't be able to use their CofE church-going as a reason to get their kids into the good Catholic school in the town anymore, and the school being funded by the CofE is currently the worst in the town.
Money is equal. Having it or not does not depend on belief. The fact you don't have it today does not preclude you having it tomorrow. In that respect it is much more within your power to change the situation and get the extra money required for a private education than it is to change your beliefs.. unless of course you fake it, as many do.
I could much more easily get my kids into the catholic school on the other side of town than I could get them into the non-Catholic school almost next door. It's pretty difficult to find the extra £200,000 I'd need to move house.
But if you want to have a debate about the education system and how money influences choice I can be just as vociferous on that topic too.. Doesn't make either of them right though and pointing out a flaw elsewhere in the education system doesn't by default justify the other.
Similarly, pointing out that a school uses religion as a way of keeping itself as a nice school doesn't mean that all religions are bad.
Similarly, pointing out that a school uses religion as a way of keeping itself as a nice school
if it's practicing a form of cultural apartheid then I wouldn't class it as "nice" 🙁 Paradoxically it's the less well behaved children that need more money and effort spent on them while the well behaved and bookish need minimal intervention
Similarly, pointing out that a school uses religion as a way of keeping itself as a nice school doesn't mean that all religions are bad.
Not bad as such, just that religion has an automatic "its religion, there for you must respect it with out question" If schools were excluding black or gay children it would be quite reightly delt with using discrimination laws.
Excluding on the grounds of religion is allowed and it is not questioned as religion seems to sit out side the normal scope of the law and is beyond question.
I say question everything and don't respect people just because of the funny clothes they wear or what they do on Sunday mornings. I no more respect a stranger on a mountain bike than I do a Bishop or Iman. Deal with people as people and not lables or classifications they give themselves or we impose on them*.
SSP
*That last bit goes for the religious as well as atheist ones befor eone side or the other claims it!
Mike.... Well.. I think religion is fundamentally a bad thing so I'll have to disagree with you there. I think the world would be a better place without religion.
Excluding on the grounds of religion is allowed and it is not questioned as religion seems to sit out side the normal scope of the law and is beyond question.
I agree with that, by the way.
I think religion is fundamentally a bad thing so I'll have to disagree with you there. I think the world would be a better place without religion.
I see it more as people using religion to justify doing bad things, rather than religion being bad in and of itself.
I'm a bit confused about the school thing - don't have kids so partly why I guess. These schools that only allow kids in with specific beliefs - are they funded by the relevant church? I think that must be the case but if so then why can't they choose who attends?
I'm a bit confused about the school thing - don't have kids so partly why I guess. These schools that only allow kids in with specific beliefs - are they funded by the relevant church? I think that must be the case but if so then why can't they choose who attends?
They're only part-funded by the church.
I think academies are a bigger scandal, but most of the education system is in a mess.
No school can discriminate on grounds of religion. It is illegal. Only schools for children with special needs can be 'selective' and impose specific entry requirements. If your child is denied a places at a faith school, complain.
Of course, they will probably be able to have a 'perfectly legitimate reason' why your little [s]bastard[/s] angel wasn't selected..