Hi,
My Ragley Big Wig is a little bit long for me (4cm greater from saddle tip to bar end, 2.5cm longer from seat tip to centre of top cap when compared to comfortable FS).
What is the best way to shorten it? Apart from moving saddle forward because it seems to be in the correct place relative to the BB.
Current stem is 50mm. Can I just go a bit shorted here for a starter, will it still handle OK?
Thanks,
Mick
Stick a 35mm stem on, worth a try. Or, the spendier option is something like:
https://www.workscomponents.co.uk/reach-adjust-headsets-21-c.asp
But they don't give loads of adjustment.
More backswept bars?
I've got a 35mm stem on my Big Al (not ridden in anger yet), but it seems fine.
Feels very stretched out for me too though, compared to what I'm used to
Current stem is 50mm. Can I just go a bit shorted here for a starter, will it still handle OK?
It'll probably be fine - just the steering will be a bit quicker.
Other things you can try (maybe in combination so there isn't any one single large change):
= raise the stem
= rotate the bars back
= narrower bars
= bars with more sweep
= move saddle forward
= lower saddle height
= arm-lengthening surgery
These will all have knock on effects on body position etc. so you will need to experiment with them to see if you are still comfortable and not causing injury / issues
Don't want to move the saddle, it's in the correct place relative to the BB.
Cheap option looks like a 35mm Nukeproof stem from CRC.
Don’t want to move the saddle, it’s in the correct place relative to the BB.
The correct place is whatever makes you comfortable on the bike. It costs nothing to try moving it.
Just to be clear though, in case you start comparing “reach” on other bikes, a shorter stem doesn’t effect the “reach”… which is “I” on this…
+1
As you are comparing saddle to handlebar distance, sounds like its the effective top tube you want to reduce not the reach.
But that pedantic item out the way ... the suggestions given above are all valid and good suggestions.
I will try the stem first, that should bring it a bit closer. Any suggestion for bars if I need a bit more? Currently it has the standard :
Ragley Alloy Handlebar, Black, 25mm Rise, 31.8mm Clamp (Width - M780mm, L800mm, XL800mm)
Maybe one with more rise and tilt it back?
PS I have (obviously) already tried moving the seat position, angle. It is now where I want it.
Op, what is making you feel that it is too long?
I'd try the stem, if that doesn't help then 5 or 10mm off each end of the bars.
Taller bars will shorten the effective reach, or spacers under the stem. Narrower bars will have a little of the same effect also.
It's tricky to compare direct to your FS also, as sag means Hardtail reaches actually get longer.
I'd definitely try the stem first, and then maybe other changes one at a time after - give it some time to get used to one change before changing something else, though
@kramer too much weight on hands, too much flex in neck. Switching between this and my FS yesterday and FS is shorter and much comfier.
Switching between this and my FS yesterday and FS is shorter and much comfier.
If the frame is too big, you'll never get it comfortable. Selling the frame and swapping the components to a frame with similar reach to your FS would be the obvious thing to do.
@thols I disagree. I've swapped stems and bars on all my road/gravel bikes. If you go for a bike fit, this is normally what they suggest. If it's miles out then fair enough but I only need a couple of cm.
Don’t want to move the saddle, it’s in the correct place relative to the BB.
Said who? Are you using that KOPS bullshit?
If you have a reasonably nu-skool geo HT, you should shunt the saddle forwards and lift the bars together if it feels too long and low.
Shortening the stem just makes the bike have a more rearward weight bias. With a raked out front axle, you need weight forward to pin it otherwise it will feel vague and not very grippy when you don't want it to. You don't have to adopt some stupid 90's nose low arse high posture to achieve this.
@geomickb it may be worth actually moving your saddle back a bit so that there’s less weight through your hands?
What Scienceofficer said.
When I swapped in a shorter stem, I also moved the saddle forward.
too much weight on hands, too much flex in neck
High rise bars time? What sweep are the bars? Have you moved up to much wider bars as well as a longer bike?
too much weight on hands, too much flex in neck. Switching between this and my FS yesterday and FS is shorter and much comfier.
I'd just be raising the front end with those considerations. a hardtail steepens up as it goes through the travel and the front dives, causing a much lower stack, compared to a full sus bike.
There is no good way to either reduce or increase reach without compromising something. You have your seat in a position you're comfortable with so you're compromising on handling...
That said nowt wrong with 40m stem and high rise bars so crack on although I have settled on 50mm personally.
IMO a hardtail ought to be about 20mm shorter to than the equivalent size full sus to account for geometry changes when the front suspension compresses.
An MTB is not a road bike so bike fit rules do not apply the same.
40mm difference.. is a size or 2 too long if you're going by what you are used to
I wouldn't start at the front of the bike, having the bike handling correct when stood up is more of a priority to any seated comfort. Start with what you have, move the saddle forwards, try it... Check out your fork, is your sag ok, can you make it stand up any higher?
I've ordered the stem and some riser bars from CRC, at current prices it's worth a punt.
TBH I'm not really concerned about handling (within reason), seated comfort is definitely my priority.
When I got my Tyee, I didn’t really want to sell my Calibre Sentry but it was hard to justify two bikes with the exact same purpose. My wife wanted a FS but felt far too stretched on the Sentry, being a lot shorter than me and her shoulders / neck felt uncomfortable on it. I stuck a 32mm stem and SQ labs 30x 45mm rise, 16 backsweep bar on and hey presto, she is blissfully comfortable, more so than any of her other bikes.
As my life would clearly have been forfeit if the front end grip was a bit dubious, I tested it beyond the limits of grip before letting her loose on it. I noticed the turn in was notably quicker, but really didn’t notice any decrease in front end grip and she’s ridden it all year with zero issues. 🙂
Seated comfort would still mean a saddle shift forward to try that for a few rides.
Just got to this but I've not seen your reply to why you think the saddle is in the perfect position...if the reach feels too long then it sounds like it isn't and is a very quick and easy thing to try.
Yawn, ive already tried moving the seat forward.
Its a medium which fits 170-180cm and I'm 174.
I've just thrown a tape measure (very unaccurately) around my Big Al and my FS Kenevo ebike (which I know is not particularly long, but fits me really well)
It seems that the top of the stem is around 2cm lower on the Al (makes sense - shorter fork, bit bigger stem spacer) but the saddle nose to stem centre is around 3cm more. The actual stack difference to top of saddle compared to the stack to the top of the stem is around 3cm less on the Al than the Kenevo though
BUT - the extra reach (real and effective) on the Al, makes the bars feel lower weirdly.
Not had a proper ride on it yet, so will see how it all stacks up out on the trail
For effective top tube (seated length), make sure your seatpost is an inline one rather than layback.
If you don't have a dropper and still want shorter after sliding your saddle forward on the rails, Thomson do a kinked seatpost which can be fitted backwards.
Sorry, don't think I saw you confirming that, just that apparently it was in the right position. What was the sizing range for the frame down from the one you got? Agreed 4cm is well in the range of the sizing chart but if your arms are slightly shorter then it might just be slightly too large...any mates with the size down you can try? Even if it just rules that out...
The only actual ways to shorten the reach of a hardtail are to run a longer fork, less sag, a bigger front wheel (that usually requires a different fork) or a smaller rear wheel.
All of these approaches will actually lengthen the effective top tube (the seated “reach” of the bike).
That said nowt wrong with 40m stem and high rise bars
Sure, if you have the arms for it.
There isn't a size down, they don't do a small.
Taller bars will shorten the effective reach, or spacers under the stem
Yep, if you have a decent amount of steerer tube to play with, get as many spacers under the stem as possible.
A lot of people could benefit from trying higher handlebars anyway, but if they really feel too high - then get a flatter bar to compensate.
This reduces the frame reach. And you can use a shorter stem to reduce the reach to the grips.
A lot of people could benefit from trying higher handlebars anyway, but if they really feel too high – then get a flatter bar to compensate.
This reduces the frame reach. And you can use a shorter stem to reduce the reach to the grips.
The effective reach is the horizontal distance from the bottom bracket to the steering axis at the level of the grips. It doesn't matter whether you put spacers under the stem or use riser bars, with the grips at the same level, the effective reach is the same. Putting spacers under the stem then fitting a flat bar to lower the grips will not reduce the reach compared to using riser bars and fewer spacers to get the grips to the same height.
The frame reach quoted by manufacturers will be shorter than the effective reach because it's measured to the headset, not the height of the grips, which are above the headset. The frame reach doesn't change, hence it's a safe thing for manufacturers to list. The effective reach does change depending on how you set up the bike. The effective reach is what matters to setting up the bike so riders of the same overall height who have different body proportions and set the saddle and bars at different heights may find that they aren't comfortable on the same sized frame.
Don't you start again mate.
Don’t you start again mate.
Start what? Correcting people when they post utter nonsense?
My understanding is that if you feel that there is too much weight going through your hands, moving the saddle forward will make this worse not better.
Well, it kinda can – dependant on the length of the fork
Yes, that's true, but manufacturers list the geometry with a specified axle to crown length. If you fit the recommended AC length fork, the reach doesn't change so it's a stable measurement that manufacturers can list in the geometry charts. The effective reach at the level of the handgrips is much more useful to judge whether the bike will fit you, but they can't list that because it changes if you raise or lower the bars.
On One Geoff bars? I think they’ll reduce your reach a bit.
Stem for sure, it'll do what you want and it's not necessarily a compromise, you may well find you prefer it. Mostly with long bikes I fit the shortest stem I can.
Bar position gets interesting, and as ^^^ up there the words get messy, because you can change things with bars that make a bike feel less "reachey" without actually changing reach, or even what people tend to mean if you say "effective reach". I'm going to call it upper-body-stretchiness to avoid that, because there's so much body geometry as well as bike geometry involved.
Higher bars- whether from the bar itself or stem spacers- can feel less stretchy, frinstance, because your arms are the hypotenuse of the triangle. But they can also feel more stretchy, or exactly the same, because they can influence your riding position and encourage you to sit/stand back. Narrower bars likewise can have unexpected effects, they also reduce the mathematical stretchiness if you stay in the same pose but can cause you to move to compensate. (I always go body forward and rounder arms with shorter bars, ymmv)
But even just a more angled-back bar can feel surprisingly different, I have 9 degree bars that actually are offset so your hands are kept in the same position relative to the steerer compared to a less angled bar, but the change in wrist shape still makes them feel a little less stretchy, though they're not really, just because we have elbows.
TLDR fanny about with it. Bars and stems can be cheap and are usually pretty easy to sell. Turn stems upside down, roll bars forward and back, cut some cheap bars or move your grips around. Try different saddles if you can. Just because it doesn't make any sense doesn't mean it can't work, a change in the "wrong" direction could be the change you need even.
If you want to try some different hand positions on the bars (width wise) try a pair of these, they are the longest grips I've ever had. You can easily move your hands an inch inboard and still be on the grips. Cheaper than experimenting trimming your bars
I had the "bike feels way too long" thing with my new frame and 50mm stem (especially as I came from an old geometry bike), 35mm stem sorted it for the most part and it doesn't feel so sluggish to ride now. I do still feel like I should have got the small with a 50mm stem though as it doesn't feel like I'm getting quite enough weight over the front wheel sometimes. Haven't ridden it enough to be sure though.
Didn't like the feeling of higher bars, the whole bike felt massive.
🤦