[Closed] Best skills course

Jedi, he's the best

Yoga? Core training, weights and fitness? I'd do these first.

"The don" was pretty good

I already do all of the above Hora, I know my fitness can be improved a bit, however I climb better than most of my friends, just need to improve some more.
Plus mrs ab is wandering what to get me for xmas!!!

I've been to see Jedi, and had a great day.

Would like to go see Ed Oxley (Great Rock) too.

If you can get to Jedi, go. If you can get to Ed-O, go. That is all.

Depends on what areas you feel you need to improve on?

Ringo - Member
Jedi, he's the best

Did a two day course with Ed Oxley and took a great deal away from it.

Gave me a good base to build on and Nigel Page was there for added advice.

Do hear good things about Jedi, been a few posts on here.

The Ed Oxley one is closer, I will look into them both and have a think.

many thanks

Ant

Can anyone give a little sneak peak at what they actually teach you on a skills course? Why are they so great?

I imagine they're mostly for people who come to mountain biking in later life and are terrified of jumps, drops and roots (no bad thing, got lots of mates like this).

If you spent your whole youth doing skids and wheelies and can ride anything put in front of you is there anything you can gain from a coaching session?

Having been to both Ed-O and Jedi this year, it's Jedi I'll be going back to.

[quote=sharkattack]Can anyone give a little sneak peak at what they actually teach you on a skills course? Why are they so great?

I imagine they're mostly for people who come to mountain biking in later life and are terrified of jumps, drops and roots (no bad thing, got lots of mates like this).

If you spent your whole youth doing skids and wheelies and can ride anything put in front of you is there anything you can gain from a coaching session?

The million dollar question!

Haven't been to any others, but I'm a cocky ****er and Jedi is the best. In my opinion and to me that's all that matters

[quote=sharkattack ]Can anyone give a little sneak peak at what they actually teach you on a skills course? Why are they so great?
I imagine they're mostly for people who come to mountain biking in later life and are terrified of jumps, drops and roots (no bad thing, got lots of mates like this).
If you spent your whole youth doing skids and wheelies and can ride anything put in front of you is there anything you can gain from a coaching session?

I went to a jumps and drops course with a couple of mates, we were already pretty comfortable jumping small gaps etc... One of the major things that we learnt was that we were jumping with the totally wrong technique. Jumps now feel much more comfortable and if I mess up I'm more likely to ride it out.

edit: I've been riding since I was a kid but everyone is going to get a different amount out of a course etc...

Ringo - Member
Haven't been to any others, but I'm a cock[s]y ****er[/s] and [s]Jedi is the best. In[/s] my opinion [s]and to me that[/s]'s all that matters

[quote=chvck]I went to a jumps and drops course with a couple of mates, we were already pretty comfortable jumping small gaps etc... One of the major things that we learnt was that we were jumping with the totally wrong technique. Jumps now feel much more comfortable and if I mess up I'm more likely to ride it out.

What if you're comfortable launching 15-20ft gaps?
And happily ride any trail blind - up to what the 'instructor' would consider their own limit (blind).

(Which is what I think what [b]sharkattack[/b] is getting at)

What if you're comfortable launching 15-20ft gaps?
And happily ride any trail blind - up to what the 'instructor' would consider their own limit (blind).

(Which is what I think what sharkattack is getting at)

Fair enough! I can't really comment there but I'd think that anyone (who isn't top of their game) would learn something if the 'instructor' was a pro racer or the like.

Fair enough! I can't really comment there but I'd think that anyone (who isn't top of their game) would learn something if the 'instructor' was a pro racer or the like

[quote=robinlaidlaw]Presumably they don't need to be a top racer, they just need to be a very good coach. After all, the top DH racers still benefit from coaching, but must be more capable on their bikes than their coaches, otherwise the coaches would be the ones racing and winning.

True, in respect of football team managers vs. the players. Each is good at their respective thing.

I wonder if the pro DH'ers receive 'skills' training from their coaches, or more 'psychological' (and nutritional, and fitness....)

Same with tennis players - the pros play against each other for match training - but have coaches for other things.

I went to a jumps and drops course with a couple of mates, we were already pretty comfortable jumping small gaps etc... One of the major things that we learnt was that we were jumping with the totally wrong technique. Jumps now feel much more comfortable and if I mess up I'm more likely to ride it out.

Even if you've been riding for years (like I have) unless you are a riding god there's probably something to be gained by having someone with experience watching you ride and giving you stuff to work on. Yeah it was expensive but I wish I'd done it years ago!!

I'm not sure if they still do it but the Athertons did excellent training days in Llandegla.

Presumably they don't need to be a top racer, they just need to be a very good coach. After all, the top DH racers still benefit from coaching, but must be more capable on their bikes than their coaches, otherwise the coaches would be the ones racing and winning.

I went on a jumps and drops course which was run by a very competent rider, but he wasn't a great coach.

Essentially it was "do some manuals", then 4 repeats of "ride over this jump while doing the manual type of movement".

Each time he'd watch us do it a few times each and then we'd move on. no real individual feedback or analysis.

As a fairly competent rider (my weakest aspect is probably jumps and drops --hence the course--, stuff like Caddon Bank at Innerleithen, the jump combined with a descent and a big drop on the one side freaks me out a bit) I didn't gain much from it. I certainly don't think that there's anything I couldn't do before that I now can.

Someone else on here has described the (not so good) skills courses as "a guided tour of a trail centre" and I'd agree with that.

Sounds about right rusty... Cheers 🙂

Ed O, he's not egotistical, knows loads about bikes & biking, loves bikes & biking and is an all round great fella.
Plus his beard is frickin awesome

"a guided tour of a trail centre"

Ha! Love it!

Steve from [url= http://www.wheelism.co.uk/Default.aspx ]Wheelism[/url] is also really good. I've not personally used him but have only heard good things.

Of those who are suggesting Jedi or Ed (generally the two most popular suggestions on such threads), how many have first hand experience of both?

As for the "guided tour of a trail centre", I did that one as well. Most uninspiring. So much for the legacy!

Fair enough! I can't really comment there but I'd think that anyone (who isn't top of their game) would learn something if the 'instructor' was a pro racer or the like.

Nah xiphon is so good he thinks he can teach Greg Minnaar riding skills.

Comedy gold.

Of those who are suggesting Jedi or Ed (generally the two most popular suggestions on such threads), how many have first hand experience of both?

I did a weekend with ed in a group, he's a really nice guy and I had a great weekend but I feel the coaching needs to be done as an individual as I didn't get that much out of it as I'd have hoped.

From what I understand you need a few lessons.

Ive heard people say great but forgot most of what learnt after a while.

Even if you've been riding for years (like I have)

Having never intentionally got both wheels off the ground before I was clearing the 6' table by the end!

Not meaning to single you out zilog, but this crops up quite a bit on here. What were you(s) doing for all those years? Riding a bike a not doing jumps? It's as if this guy never existed 😀

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[quote=Onzadog ]Of those who are suggesting Jedi or Ed (generally the two most popular suggestions on such threads), how many have first hand experience of both?

I've done the 2-day flow course with Ed, and have been jedi-ed. Would happily (and when finances allow, will) go back to either. Ed is a great teacher with an exceptional beard, and jedi is a quiet genius who will open you up to a totally different approach to riding your bike, and will also make you a great cup of coffee

Hora, that's the difference with Tony/Jedi, although it can vary with learning style, the transformation is often instantaneous.

Mate of mine found it didn't click on the day which he found frustrating. However, a few rides later, midway through, it just clicked. You could actually see the moment it happened.

How many skills courses you been at Onzadog?

I did a 1 to 1 with Jedi, and a group "Alps Prep" with Ed Oxley. I'd go back to both, but very different courses.

[quote=Onzadog ]
Mate of mine found it didn't click on the day which he found frustrating. However, a few rides later, midway through, it just clicked. You could actually see the moment it happened.

It did take me a few rides to get used to the jedi method on other trails. Then I knackered my wrist at work and haven't been able to ride for 2 months so I'll no doubt have forgotten most of what I had learned 🙁

I've been on a course that I'd rather not mention, but let's say it makes others look great. I've also been on a course with Ed as well as a few visits to Jedi. Jedi is the one I recommend to friends. The wife has been down twice and recently, he had her clearing the 6' table top so well, she didn't even notice. Wouldn't believe him until she saw the pictures.

The guys that be been Jedi d and Oxed which would you reckon be note useful for enduro racing?

[quote=kimbers ]The guys that be been Jedi d and Oxed which would you reckon be note useful for enduro racing?

I would say if you were looking for racing specific coaching then either go to Neil Donoghue or one of the Rafferty brothers as they all race Enduro's and have great reputations as coaches.

I think you need to find an instructor that has a style that works for you. I really didn't get on well on a Jedi session. I appreciate I am in a minority based on the reports on here. Apparently I was the first person he couldn't teach to jump 😥

Not meaning to single you out zilog, but this crops up quite a bit on here. What were you(s) doing for all those years? Riding a bike a not doing jumps? It's as if this guy never existed

Just to second what onza said above, when you're riding the "Jedi way" it actually feels like you're barely doing anything, effortless like! As opposed to before, when I was fighting the bike to get it to do what I wanted!

I've been on a few (won't name names apart from one was Jedi and one wasn't Ed-O), and the only one I'd recommend of those is Jedi. He had me riding the tabletops and steep drops into the quarry that had my arse puckering severely before we started, but by the end was only mild panic 😉

Whether it was good for racing - I reckon so, getting down trails with much better flow = less effort, less loss of speed, and better control has to make you faster and allow you to save your effort for pedalling where you need it.

I don't understand people who say they don't need coaching. The best sportsmen in the world, of any discipline, are all regularly coached. Nadal, Ennis, Ronaldo, Hoy, etc. To think you won't benefit from QUALITY coaching is naive at best.

And re Evil Knievel. He was a great daredevil but a piss awful jumper. No wonder he was always crashing, with his showy back wheel landings. Watch the proper MX / bmx jumpers, nosing in on the landing ramps. Just daft to land a bike on the one wheel that you don't steer with! As a kid I used to build ramps and jumps to be like him, and I've got the scars on knees and elbows to prove it. Jedi retaught me in a few minutes.

Jedi has been highly recommended by many students, and from knowing Tony over the years I could add he is a good guy and a passionate rider who has put a lot in the "scene" with Herts Shore and then his coaching

something to understand about coaching is that the top riders often are not the best coaches

many top riders cannot quantify what they do, or how, because they have been riding so long its instinctual

a good coach has a very different and specific skillset, and this is something many comment Jedi has in abundance which includes patience and communication, and ability to analyse what is happening, why and making the necessary corrections

not saying I was a "top rider" but I used to regularly ride this kind of stuff, and would not have a clue where to start with coaching other riders! I would always recommend a proper coach like Jedi 🙂

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Im going to throw another name in the mix . I had a 4 hr coaching session with tom dowie at chicksands bike park , he was very well priced for 1 on 1 tuition , clear and easy to understand, a really great teacher,very patiant and the course was tailored to my needs after he assessed my abilities and included a bit of everything.

tom is a top 4x rider and is off to the world champs next week to represent great Britain so you know your getting coached by someone who really knows how to ride:)

I learnt a huge amount and everytime I ride now I can see myself using everything he taught me , im quicker and much more confidant in my abilities especially in the air , I will definitely be booking a follow up session in the near future 🙂

Theraggyone, just curious to know if you've been coached by either Jedi or Ed to get a comparison to Tom.

Unfortunatly not so I cant offer a comparison ,but as chicksands is local to me it was a no brainer to try him and im glad I did:)

I've come back to MTB (meaning all bike activity as well) after a very long gap (>20 yrs) and have no MTB coaching experience other than from a Singletrack Skills Day with Jedi earlier this year after being back to MTB riding for about 18 months. I have nothing to compare with, but have nothing for praise for Jedi's methods and ethos - both are equally important and significant in my mind.

What Jedi teaches is so simple it's comically effective - I was grinning like a mad-man at times during the course because it suddenly became so easy both mentally and practically. Thus, I would echo any recommendation to go see Jedi but clearly, I have limited experience so take from my experience what you will.

On the other hand, I am a former Great Britain international in another sport and would echo the sentiment from earlier in this thread that innate ability and coaching ability are related but excellence at one does not imply excellence at the other.

From my experience, no matter how good you are (and I mean right up to 1st/2nd in the world at a given sport), coaching has its place and is part of the deal - I have been subject to it and have positively encouraged it and have benefitted from it. Can you think of an Olympic athelete without a coach?

And no - whilst I coach at my former sport as best I can, I don't coach above beginner level because I'm not that good at coaching!

Stu

I did the Pro Ride guides course up at Stainburn with Joe Rafferty, definitely worth the money, learnt a great deal from it, you can tell they're enduro racers and it shows in their coaching although that's not to say they don't teach jumping, just that the fastest and smoothest way often means flattening the jump. I definitely feel I came away a more competent rider. Also watching them ride sections at slow motion speed to let you see exactly what's happening then re riding it at full race speed is jaw dropping! Plus a lot of people don't realise that the Pro Ride guides actually train other skills coaches!

[quote=esher shore said]
something to understand about coaching is that the top riders often are not the best coaches
many top riders cannot quantify what they do, or how, because they have been riding so long its instinctual
a good coach has a very different and specific skillset, and this is something many comment Jedi has in abundance which includes patience and communication, and ability to analyse what is happening, why and making the necessary corrections

Actually, whilst typing, esher shore said it better than I did. This ^....

Stu

Stu what did you do? (If you dont mind me asking)

Kimbers, for Enduro racing I'd edge towards Ed O. He had me riding "quicker lines" that would have been the opposite of the line I would have picked. I think he races himself too.

And re Evil Knievel. He was a great daredevil but a piss awful jumper. No wonder he was always crashing, with his showy back wheel landings. Watch the proper MX / bmx jumpers, nosing in on the landing ramps.

I doubt any of the top mx boys (inspired by riders inspired by Kinevel) would even attempt what he did on the bikes that he did it on. Evil was the man. And the fact that he kept on being the man after every crash makes him the man, squared. Shame on you 😀

nowmefeelinit - Member
esher shore said »
something to understand about coaching is that the top riders often are not the best coaches
many top riders cannot quantify what they do, or how, because they have been riding so long its instinctual
a good coach has a very different and specific skillset, and this is something many comment Jedi has in abundance which includes patience and communication, and ability to analyse what is happening, why and making the necessary corrections
Actually, whilst typing, esher shore said it better than I did. This ^....

Stu

too true

a few years ago I was asked to do a section for the "Haynes" bike skills book, as well as riding the bike on the wooden trail at esher, I was asked to contribute the "how to" for this section

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[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

no shame in admitting they had to "rewrite" my how to, as my inane ramblings probably made no sense to anyone!

Hora - not at all. Fullbore Target Rifle Shooting. For the uninitiated: outdoor, single shot, bolt action, iron sights (no telescopic sights), 7.62 mm calibre, min 300 yds, max 1000 yds range. Come rain, snow or shine, you're lying on the ground a long way from what you're shooting at and no excuses - only a central bull will do (and damn it's hot in lying in the sun in South Africa or Canada in the summer with full kit on - to the point of reaching anyone's physical limits). Being able to shoot straight in such circumstances is a given at international level although surprisingly, momentary lapses of this basic skill was what let anyone down as much as anything else. Beyond being able to shoot straight, reading wind/weather is key - a 10 kt gust of wind could put you off the target at 1000 yds and competitions are won and lost on much less than that.

It's not an Olympic sport but it is a Commonwealth Games Sport - whilst never quite good enough to compete at CG level I've represented both GB and England internationally around the world.

As for the translation to cycling, the muscle groups and aerobic aspects are clearly different (although I was damn fit whilst competing due to a surprising aerobic requirement for international shooting to cope with extreme hot/cold conditions) - but the process of coaching and the mental mapping is identical. In fact, some of the coaching sessions we had were away from the firing point and with other discipline coaches. I guess the similarity is aiming to develop technique and ability plus mental resilience/adaptability to cope with whatever is thrown at you without thinking too hard about it. And from my experience of MTB coaching, Jedi's right on the money.

Sorry I didn't turn out to be an undercover Ussain Bolt!

Stu

What are peoples experiences with Chase skills?

Richie McCoy is the best.

i recently did a two day course with Stuart at forest freeride near Mach in mid wales. I can't recommend it enough. A purpose built training area and one price whether its just yourself or with others.

+1 for Tom Dowie. Great guy, very patient and very effective. I went to him after Jedi for info.

Skills courses are the new "bike fit"

All well and good, go and taught how to do something.

There's no substitute for practice though, you need to practice what you've been taught over and over till it comes naturally.

But practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Onzadog - Member

Of those who are suggesting Jedi or Ed (generally the two most popular suggestions on such threads), how many have first hand experience of both?

I have, and intrestingly my conclusion is the opposite of Onzadog's - I'd recommend Ed O.

But practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Depends what you mean by perfect. Everyone has their own way of doing things. Watch any of the top riders, they all have their own style.

I recently had a second day with stu at forest freeride after a three year gap. As with all good coaches, youvride lines at the end of the day you could not imagine at the start. It will probably take at least another year to assimilate what i learned this time. I'm an advocate of coaching

Unless you've been to several different coaches you cannot say "so and so is the best"

best is probably never found 🙂
The best person for you is the person who can communicate with you, convince you and help you.

I have had 1 paid for session and seen a few others going on, been in groups where a guide is coaching people and general other riders chipping in. My missus has done a few with different people and has had different experiences with all of them.

The coach needs to have skills but doesn't need to be the best. Some of the "Big Name/Racers" might not be the best coaches - you can't learn much from the guy who explains landing a jump as "You Just Do" etc. some people can be amazing riders but not be able to tell you how they do it or work out how you should do it.

I did a 1 on 1 session with Craig from Cyclewise (Whinlatter) sound guy, great coach and rider. I have ridden with a few of the guys who coach up there socially and it's great to hear some advice at the end of a descent or climb. For that I would recommend them as good guys, down to earth and great at communicating with a good course structure.

On the subject of what do you do on a course? If your going to get the most out of it you need to know what you want from it. If it's a group beginners course are you at the same level as the others - if not it could either mean you get lots of extra help at the expense of the group or not enough. Sometimes mates are not the best people to go with as you don't always need the peer pressure element.

If you can afford a 1 on 1 or 2:1 course with someone with the same needs/ambitions then that would be my preference. Spend some time thinking about where you are, what you can't/won't/don't do and what you would like to do. My session was in the run up to the mega so was focussed on flow, speed, racing & efficiency.

Final thing, if your going to invest in the skills invest the time to practice them. Turn up to rides early and get some extra practice in round the car park etc.

David, by perfect practice I mean don't practice mistakes. Find out what you need to be doing and practice that. People may have different styles but some stuff is universally wrong. Practice that a 1000 times and you've not made it perfect, you've just perfected a bad habit.

It's what I'd done by riding around over twenty years before getting coached by someone who could spot it, knows what they're doing and most importantly, could change what I was doing.

I've been to see Ed & Jedi (I don't mind admitting to being a a coaching addict 🙂 ). Sadly I can't really give a proper comparison because Tony taught me one to one in his properly groomed, airtime paradise, Ed's was the Flow course at Lee/Crag Quarry.

Tony had me doing his easier gaps and Ed taught me the importance of 'pumping'. Might give the Raffertys a go next year...

As a 42 yr old, I'd like to still be riding at 62 but to get satisfaction from my riding I need to feel like I'm getting better each year. My boy's only 2 3/4's so I don't want to get my arse kicked too badly as he grows up!

I have never been a natural at any sport but I have one or two friends that pick up any sport almost instantly. If this is you then consider yourself lucky, some of us need a little help...

[quote=OnzaDog]David, by perfect practice I mean don't practice mistakes. Find out what you need to be doing and practice that. People may have different styles but some stuff is universally wrong. Practice that a 1000 times and you've not made it perfect, you've just perfected a bad habit.

If it works [well] for you, why change? As you say, different people have different styles.

Skills Courses seem to be for those who [b]aren't[/b] happy with one or more aspects of their riding skills.

[i]But what if you are happy, and can't think of anything you'd pay someone to help you improve on?[/i] (The question nobody's asked!)

(jumping 20ft doubles on a BMX track, riding silly steep DH tracks, pumping terrain when required, etc etc.)

(ignoring the "you must be a riding God then" comments.... just sounds like jealousy 😉 )

Stu at forest freeride spent most of the morning with me working on refining flat cornering technique and then working different approaches to a set of corners to maximise control with speed.

After ironing problems with my flat takeoff technique for an hour, We then added in small jump into the set of corners and worked on take off approaches to hit the corners right.

We had a quick play on a switchback before heading to a small steep jump line. Starting with the bottom jump we just worked on variations of entry speed vs push speed until I had it spot on clearing a good distance and cleanly landing wheels together every time. Then rolled the first jump, to corner, check speed and launch the bottom jump. Working up to launching the top jump, fast steep corner, hard speed check and launch the second.

He's not teaching to "do the gap jump" but working you towards overall competency in bike handling. One of his clients apparently said "you make it look boring" lol! Because it looks like nothing but you have control, confidence and flow.

I have done some coaching with Jedi and Rowan Sorrel.

Both different but both pretty good and got stuff from both.

If it works [well] for you, why change? As you say, different people have different styles.

Fair comment. I do understand this - eg: skiing, I have a long standing knee injury that means that really my days of skiing blacks and mogul fields are in the past. But, I love being in the mountains, enjoying cruising around and stopping for a hot chocolate at a mountain cafe and enjoying the views. i don't need any more coaching to enable me to do that.

But MTB'ing - yes, there are some aspects i still can't do, and some I can do but want to get better at. And with all due respect to the counter arguers, practising the wrong things over and over will only make me better at doing the wrong things, i need(ed) an expert eye to unpick the small errors that i was making and help me do them properly. And then I needed to go and practise doing the right things over and over.

Done both. Tony a few years back before he moved it to Herts (we were at woburn) and with Ed this year as 'alpine prep'. Very different and both great for me. Tony just 'reboots' your riding getting you to repeat a few basic techniques that come together as you ride the trails. Ed was picking on specific things - which for me were 'too far back' and 'braking too late' which sound really simple but sometimes you need to be told.

For me, both made me realise I can ride a bike. Occasionally quite quickly but not always in control. I think the 'boring' comment has merit here because when you're smooth you can be fast and it's no drama. When you're fast and not smooth it certainly is.

I'd definitely do another one. Bad habits creep back in and most people (blokes especially) try and ride round the problem by attempting to go faster. One thing I learned with both Ed and Tony was how much faster you REALLY are if you set up for corners/jumps/drops properly and at the right speed rather than piling in trusting your suspension.

I don't have a direct comparison but I wrote them both up here.

Ed: http://pickled-hedgehog.com/?p=2863
Tony: http://pickled-hedgehog.com/?p=1791

Done both of the Stop Crashing courses with Ed and recently treated myself to a 1-2-1 day.

On the latter, we rode Blue Pig and Peckett Well as well as the Hebden Bridge Bikepark (well, it's a bit of concrete with some old doors and bits of industrial detritus on it, used to be a mill, spot on for practising bunny hops and drop-offs).

I got a huge amount out of the day. Ed spotted some mistakes in my riding and inspired me to attempt lines and, more importantly, speeds that I wouldn't on my own.

I'd had a good think about what I wanted to improve and what I felt I was getting/doing wrong and Ed worked on that (whoever you choose I think it's important to work out precisely what you want from the sessions before you go, makes you think about your own riding etc which is no bad thing).

Ed's good company, you can have a laugh etc which counts for a lot.

I'd recommend. If you don't ride in the area you also get to experience some cracking trails.

Went on a course with Dirt School a few years ago and that was top notch. Two months ago a group of us did Ed O's Alpine Prep course, it was fantastic. Both Andy Barlow and Ed O are fantastic coaches.

Ed has a great knack of making the complex, simple and really adding value to each individual rider.

Ive used both Jedi and Tom Dowie.

Ive been back to Tom again and will do so again and again. But whoever you pick - do it one on one and you will get the most out of it. Dont do it in a large group unless its free.