I’ve ridden drops having a low front and a high back which makes me fast on road also makes me front-heavy which suggests that in the event of slippage I’m going to lose the front first.
Hmm, I guess it's very frame and rider dependant, but I've had more fun slipping, sliding and drifting corners on my gravel bike than I ever had on my MTBs. Might just be because I'm getting more practice as the 40mm tyres break out easier! It's always the back that goes first.
I certainly love always trying to pin the inside line of loose gravelly corners, in the knowledge that at least I've got a track's width to 'drift' if I misjudge it...
It’s always the back that goes first.
This is quite bike dependent. The drop bar bikes I've ridden tend to be quite short which probably exacerbates it.
often resulting in you feeling far less fatigued for your time on the bike
I've found the opposite - to get aero I end up bent over more which is less comfortable. So I tend to spend less time on my road bike but of course I cover more ground.
I’m surprised at how long it’s taking for gravel bikes to have 29x ~2.35″ tyre clearance to become mainstream, besides the odd brand such as the Salsa Cuttroat, anything above 700×45 still seems to be quite rare.
I think this is because the market is still driven by or inspired by the US where graded dirt roads are commonplace. On the other hand, we in upland Britain have a surplus of rocky mountain tracks that make brilliant mixed riding, but they're rough enough to make small tyres a chore IMO; even when we have lots of fire-road they are in out-of-the-way places and they can still be pretty rough. My local fire-road in the woods for example starts off nice but the descent has loads of rain erosion, loads of loose stones, some bedrock, and a big concealed rock half way down one of the fast bits.
The other thing that differentiates MTB and gravel bikes is gearing. I couldn't use gravel gearing round here, it's just too tall and the trails are too steep. A more sprightly climber might get away with it.
Allow me to clarify my statement, when I said tyre width doesn't really matter I meant it from the perspective of what 'counts' as being a gravel bike, you can run a 28mm slick or a 56mm wide knobbly thing, and all points in between, it's more the application, if you're using the bike for mixed on/offroad riding, I reckon it's a "gravel bike"...
Obviously you can pick the tyres/wheels that best suit your preferred terrain(s).
If we're sharing tyre anecdotes, I'm on 38mm trail tech G+ currently which appear to be sufficiently armoured for use on an APC, roll nicely on smooth surfaces, behave on loose surfaces with a hint of drift and will probably kill me when proper winter starts and all the dust turns to slick mud, They're great!
The other thing that differentiates MTB and gravel bikes is gearing. I couldn’t use gravel gearing round here, it’s just too tall and the trails are too steep. A more sprightly climber might get away with it.
I think that's changing, the "no rules" ethos of gravel bikes seems to be pushing people towards adopting big cassettes and sub 1:1 ratios, especially now 1x is an accepted concept for many both of the big S's are now playing the game with gravel specific drivetrain options. You don't have to use bodged Road bike parts any more...
I’m surprised at how long it’s taking for gravel bikes to have 29x ~2.35″ tyre clearance to become mainstream, besides the odd brand such as the Salsa Cuttroat, anything above 700×45 still seems to be quite rare.
I’d agree with this. One of the main attractions of my Kona Sutra LTD was the ability to run proper 29 x 2.2” MTB tyres in it should I need to. At the moment the 50c ones are ideal for the kind of riding I’m doing but I do like to have the choice as none of my other bikes provide sufficient overlap to fill that gap (i.e. I don’t have a 29er hardtail)
The cables on my Salsa El Mar are all externally routed. So I could in theory snip the cable ties (or use clips) and remove the bars with the brakes and mechs attached, and swap it over for a drop setup. Not cheap though because I'd need STI brake levers, but I could have more gravel/road wheels with say 45c and a road freehub and use road gears to go with it.
Too much work though 🙂
I don’t know what the roads are like where you live but my old bike had 25c tyres and frankly it made riding horrible on the battered potholed roads where I live.
The roads are crap where I live and I actually find riding on gravel more pleasant than the harder tarmac. Like I said, I am not bothered about comfort and prefer the feel of narrower tyres.
I had a bike a few years ago that would take 45c tyres so I put some on. Ruined the bike for me as it just felt more like an MTB which is not what I want to ride.
Like I said, I am not bothered about comfort and prefer the feel of narrower tyres.
For me narrow tyres on rough roads the concern is more about knackering the rims.
I’m surprised at how long it’s taking for gravel bikes to have 29x ~2.35″ tyre clearance to become mainstream
I think it's all driven by volume rather than rollover (radius).
Some quick fag packet maths seems to indicate that a 700x40c is basically double the volume of a 700x28c tyre which is a noticeable benefit (IMO/IME) for that on/off-road mix of riding.
On top of that though a 650bx2.3" tyre comes out double the volume of the 700x40c tyre again,
however there's not much more volume to be gained by going to a 29x2.3" (less than 10% increase)...
So yeah despite my cynicism it seems if you're still not happy with the ride a ~700x40c tyre offers the next obvious step (in the same frame) is actually to go to 650bx2"(+)ish tyres as it substantially increases tyre volume, improving the cushioning/grip a tyre offers , but will more than likely fit in an existing gravel bike frame where a 29er (622x2.0"+) tyre just won't and you don't gain much more volume with it anyway...
. I couldn’t use gravel gearing round here, it’s just too tall and the trails are too steep. A more sprightly climber might get away with it.
Easy fix
For me narrow tyres on rough roads the concern is more about knackering the rims.
Never a problem for me as the narrow tyres require high pressure so rims are safe. Narrow tyres and high pressures, I really don't care about comfort.
If I did rides over 2 hours I would very probably say different
OK... so I think the plan is im going to try and build one up from spares and more than likely fleabay bargains. Im aiming at as cheap as it can get, and ultimately its just going to be a hacking about and winter type bike. Where to start frame wise though is my question? I'm on the border of M/L on the majority of hardtails but appreciate the geo is totally different. Any tips and pointers appreciated.
PS... it doesn't need to look pretty or even be recognisable as a gravel bike. So long as I can wheel it out the shed and have some fun i'l be happy
If you're planning to build a drop-bar bike using an MTB frame, size-down as you'll want a top-tube about 50-70mm shorter due to the longer reach to the levers of the drop bars. Fitting a shorter, rigid fork can also lighten the front end / balance the handling due to the longer bars / stem.
It doesn't have to be a MTB frame, and still unsure on wether i'l use drop bars or flats. Basically what im saying is that I don't have a clue where a good starting point would be hehe
is it as easy as buying a cheap roadie and converting it?
is it as easy as buying a cheap roadie and converting it?
Probably not (although saying that I bought a 531 tourer for notalot and use it on gravel on 28c. It has rim brakes, I don’t mind. Without mudguards it will go 32c maybe a bit more it’s a great bike)
Depends - where do want to ride it (whatever it is you build)? Fireroads, country lanes, towpaths ie 28c-40c clearance? Or somewhere more challenging ie >1.95”?
Look out for a Marin gravel/touring frame or bike. Got my mint Four Corners Elite complete with Rival groupset for less than £500 the other week and there’s been plenty of frames on ebay recently. Cheap way to see if you like it.
Never a problem for me as the narrow tyres require high pressure so rims are safe. Narrow tyres and high pressures,
Guessing you are lighter than me 🙂 I run 95psi in 23c because I have no choice, and whilst it doesn't damage the rims if I hit a pothole, it doesn't do much for my teeth and bones.
Looking to ride it straight out of the shed, mainly country lanes, roads and singletrack
I'd get something like this (obv in your size)
Jazz it up with a clean, remove rack and guards, new 3mm bar tape, set the brakes nice maybe some Kool Stop Salmon blocks, make sure wheels tensioned well. Rag it around the lanes and light trails see how you like it on the 32c ‘rough road‘ side of things?
Try different hand-positions, riding on the hoods covering the brakes, cruising on bar-shoulders on long stretches, descending and braking deep in the drops. Shifting your balance between the contact-points, getting used to the different ‘flow’ of roads and tracks at such speeds
If after a few weeks you dislike it just sell the bike and think about what next. Nothing (or little) lost. If you love it then keep or sell and put towards a gravel bike or tourer with discs etc
‘Singletrack’ is the outlier. Which means you may be better on flat bars or even sticking with hardtail and putting suitable larger volume hybrid gravel tyres on better for road-sections. Maybe add some Ergon GP3s for those rides. Is what I did for my 29er MTB.
Depends on your type of ‘singletrack’ ie
My old British tourer on 32c will at a stretch go:
But never:
Yet all day/week on:
https://www.seasurfdirt.com/2018/09/13/galloway-gravel-part-1/
Funny you mention that Jamis... its currently on my watch list lol
although ideally I did want to build one myself from scratch using pure bargains and begging charitable methods 😂🙈
Guessing you are lighter than me 🙂 I run 95psi in 23c because I have no choice, and whilst it doesn’t damage the rims if I hit a pothole, it doesn’t do much for my teeth and bones.
I am 72kg so probably on the heavy side in this forum full of cyclists. It probably doesn't do much for my teeth or bones either but again, I don't care about comfort. I am also riding fixed as well so not always as easy to unweight or hop over potholes at speed.
Realise I am in the minority here but just offering a different view to those that insist on 2" tyres on their bike.
I have tried them and for gravel and road I simply prefer the feel of the bike with lighter and narrower tyres. Comfort is not an issue for me and grip is not required on gravel (I just go a bit more careful on any sharp gravel turns - which are few and far between)
I am 72kg so probably on the heavy side in this forum full of cyclists.
Ha, I assume sarcasm.
Ha, I assume sarcasm.
I hope so 😬
whenever I’ve ridden drops having a low front and a high back which makes me fast on road also makes me front-heavy which suggests that in the event of slippage I’m going to lose the front first.
That’s an interesting one. I was under the impression that cornering in the drops reduces the chance of front washout, and too little weight on the front increases that chance?
Bridleways, canals, Woods, roads...Everyone has one right near their doorstep. Exploring Google and plotting routes that stay off the main roads. It's great fun and an enjoyable alternative to riding trail bikes.
I love mine and usually the bike I grab to ride. Older age creepin and it fits into my relaxed cycling of ale cake and slow.
You kids can keep your enduro! 😁
Exploring Google and plotting routes that stay off the main roads. It’s great fun and an enjoyable alternative to riding trail bikes.
This^
I did it with paper (OS Landranger) maps as a kid/teenager, used a red felt tip to mark out ever-increasing local loops, paying close attention to old farm tracks, towpaths, old railway lines. Would normally choose a landmark or place of interest as a destination, and hopefully a different loop back home.
Sometimes would come home hanging after being caught out on a farm track or forest road knee deep in mud and water, other times grinning like a dusty champ after racking up a surprise century (either by following nose or not having a map that day 😂).
Have always explored wherever I‘ve live by bicycle more than by any other form of transport as it’s efficient, intimate and fun in ways that neither walking or motor-vehicles can manage in a given time.
I remember first ever ride to explore Malvern Hills and back with a schoolmate (who borrowed my Dad’s 40lb Raleigh Wayfarer, two sizes too small, with a bent R/S pedal 🤣🤣🤣). It should have been just a 75 mile round trip from home. We arrived at British Camp (rained all the way, got soaked) and he made the mistake of putting a coin in the payphone and calling his dad Bob to boast about it. So Bob on phone says ‘tell you what, you lads carry on from there instead of turning back, you’ll knock ten miles off the journey.’
Thanks to Bob we somehow wound up in a Herefordshire town named Bromyard and put at least another 30 miles on our route, also getting lost a good few times trying to get home from this new lo(st)cation 😎. Knocking on doors to beg locals refill our water bottles. At least it stopped raining and the sun came out.
Trial by fire and water, fit as ****. Jumpers for goalposts. Happy daze. Don’t trust Bob (but in hindsight it made the day)
I was under the impression that cornering in the drops reduces the chance of front washout, and too little weight on the front increases that chance?
It's more about being low, because my MTB experience makes me feel a lot more vulnerable. If I'm on the drops and the front goes I'm hitting the deck hard and I have no chance to mitigate it. With a more centered position I feel I can rescue it or at least bail out nicely. Same reason I always go o to the hoods in traffic. It feels more defensive.
I was under the impression that cornering in the drops reduces the chance of front washout, and too little weight on the front increases that chance?
Absolutely this.
Can understand the fear-factor but it’s counterproductive in a couple of ways.
While tight-cornering is it preferable to slip sideways from on high CofG, or from low CofG? I ask my head this question and it says ‘low and slow‘. I ask the teenager in my legs and they say ‘high and fast‘.
It is more about control if the front does wash out. I would rather be riding with my 620 wide risers in a more upright position than my 40cm wide drops if ultimate control of the bike is the goal.
My questions are, am I going to use it, will I benefit from a ‘gravel’ bike? What can it do that my hardtail can’t?
IMHO.. Think of it as a road bike that handles crappy road surfaces, broken up lanes and byway links much better in a way that opens up new routes or from-your-door rides and you won't be disappointed. They're modern versions of a classic tourer with bigger tyres.
Think of it as any replacement for an MTB and you will be disappointed (assuming you have a jot of handling ability). Drop bars and tyres well under 2" are fun off-road but it's an underbiking kind of fun. TBH I tire of it after a number of hours, you get beat up.
The other disappointment is thinking that because it's fast on road unloaded it'll make a good/efficient bikepacking bike off-road. They don't, a rigid XC 29er will be quicker on anything lumpy or fast downhill and you'll stay fresher for longer. The tyres, geometry and ride position differences are the deciders.
