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But some cyclists do take foolish risks that get them involved in accidents.
Nearly happened to me this morning. Busy crossroads in the city centre. All lights at red and the green man lit. I'm crossing the road and see a cyclist approaching from my right. It's obvious she wasn't going to stop and if I didn't we were going to collide. Sure enough I have to stop walking and she blasts through the red light/ green man, proceeds to plough through other pedestrians then mounts the kerb and cycles off...
I saw a driver in a car do the same once, what's your point?
Taking a foolish risk on a bike can much more easily leave you dead.
Taking a foolish risk in a car can much more easily leave other people dead.
Foolish cyclists taking risks, and people not wearing enough hiv vis or helmets are not the main danger.
Overly aggressive and inattentive motor vehicle operators, and poor road design are.
That doesn't mean foolish cylists taking risks are absolved of blame or shouldn't be told off, but the media focus and action should be on the main source of danger, NOT on fringe cases, minorities and ever more trivial ways to protect yourself from that danger, it should be about trying to reduce and remove the source of the danger.
Yeah but I can't see many drivers seeing the fairness in that ie larger penalty and they didn't even rlj* "I only went into the stupid bike box"Hope so, even and fair application of the law, what a great idea
I was writing a reply but amedias has done it better.Taking a foolish risk on a bike can much more easily leave you dead.
*[i]I[/i] know the ASL rules, pretty sure most drivers don't.
You must ensure your brakes are efficient; at night.
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Taking a foolish risk in a car can much more easily leave other people dead.
Foolish cyclists taking risks, and people not wearing enough hiv vis or helmets are not the main danger.
Call me selfish but me staying alive is priority number 1. Not getting into bad situations is plan a on not getting hit or killed. As a cyclist I look after myself. When driving I look after me and other people but the consequences to me of a lapse in judgement are more likely to be financial than terminal.
I saw a driver in a car do the same once
Unless you live in Shanghai, I very much doubt you see cars regularly blast through red lights, green man crossings then mount the pavement to continue their journey 🙄
misterduncan >>
You must ensure your brakes are efficient; at night.
Actually:
-You must ensure your brakes are efficient; at night, use lit front and rear lights and have a red rear reflector.
(Although the lights are specified twice in the 7 points listed, for some reason.)
Mike, you seem to be under the impression that we are in some way saying that you shouldn't look out for yourself and try to stay safe.
I've already said it but I'll say it again here surrounded by asterisk so it can be totally clear:
***************************************************************
We are NOT saying that you shouldn't take steps to stay safe, like wearing a helmet, wearing high viz etc. where appropriate
We are saying that these are NOT the main danger, the main danger comes from elsewhere, and we would like to do something about this danger, and the focus to be on that.
***************************************************************
In the man time we will continue to do whatever we can to keep ourselves safe, but having the media focus on these things is NOT helpful, and we keep getting tied up in debating about these trivial and diversionary topics.
Unless you live in Shanghai, I very much doubt you see cars regularly blast through red lights, green man crossings then mount the pavement to continue their journey
Doubt all you like, I've seen it, a Saab 900 in 2010 and I was one of several people who called the police to report it. I didn't say regulary, you've added that word.
I'm just trying to re-enforce the point that the actions of a minority are taking away the focus from the real issues, anecdotes about seeing a few silly people doing silly things (regardless of mode of transport) does nothing to advance the debate and action agains the real problems.
I get just as grumpy about people on bikes doing things like that as the next person, but it's nothing to do with cyclists or cycling, it's people doing those things, and if you can find a way to ban silly people doing silly things then crack on in your own time, it's not got much to do with the dangers of aggressive and inattentive drivers and poor road design.
What are you saying with that anecodte, that I, and all the other people out there that don't do stuff like that can't expect people to stop driving cars and lorries into us until we (why us?) stop other people doing other silly things in other places?
Or was it just another distractionary anecdote?
I see car drivers go through red lights pretty much every single journey I make, and speeding, and on mobile phones, or reading and using laptops whilst driving.
The point I made so many pages ago is that even though this article raises some of the issues, the general tone is that cyclists need to change their behaviour to account for others, whereas it should be asking why others' behaviours aren't adapting as more "ordinary people" cycle for transport.
the biggest problem is that cycling is seen as a sport or a pastime, rather than as a means of transport.
Actually:
-You must ensure your brakes are efficient; at night, use lit front and rear lights and have a red rear reflector.(Although the lights are specified twice in the 7 points listed, for some reason.)
Odd - I don't see that. It just says "You must ensure your brakes are efficient; at night." With a full stop, then moves on to the next section.
The biggest problem is that the Police don't have the time or resources to carry out systematic stops of all people who break traffic rules, whether that be rljing, speeding, not having lights, using mobiles, careless driving.
If everyone was worried about the consequences of breaking the law, things might improve.
Call me selfish but me staying alive is priority number 1. Not getting into bad situations is plan a on not getting hit or killed. As a cyclist I look after myself. When driving I look after me and other people but the consequences to me of a lapse in judgement are more likely to be financial than terminal.
I don't think anyone is saying you are selfish, or even that they don't act in the same way you do.
What we are saying is that wanting the media focus to switch from what the cyclist can do to keep themselves safe, to what government, road design and drivers can do to keep cyclists safe would be helpful. This is not mutually exclusive to keeping yourself safe.
Wouldn't it be nice if, were the worst to happen and you got knocked off your bike, the first question wasn't "were you wearing a helmet?" and instead focused on the idiot who hit you.
Firstly the response was to this
amedias - Member
I saw a driver in a car do the same once, what's your point?
and then this
Taking a foolish risk in a car can much more easily leave other people dead.
In context it was firstly about car drivers breaking the law, well they do the consequence of their actions is generally a fine.
When on the bike I will always wear a helmet, try to be as visible as possible and be as aware of my surroundings as possible.
What we are saying is that wanting the media focus to switch from what the cyclist can do to keep themselves safe, to what government, road design and drivers can do to keep cyclists safe would be helpful. This is not mutually exclusive to keeping yourself safe.
No but honestly good luck changing it, how long did it take to make drink driving or not wearing a seatbelt socially unacceptable. I know it needs to happen, I know it needs to change, I rebuke idiots who rant on about cyclists getting in their way. I also know there is such a long way to go. It feels a bit like part of the 90's/2000's nanny state is telling people that everyone will look after them, guess what they don't give a shit.
how long did it take to make drink driving or not wearing a seatbelt socially unacceptable
A depressingly long time, and in some social circles sadly still not unacceptable enough.
Things are changing a bit here at the moment, but as you say it is slow going, but it's only through challenging articles like this and having these debates that we will make any progress.
I'll admit I am totally ignorant as to the situation where you live Mike, I don't know what it's like there, but I know how it is here, and I know we have a long way to go, and it really isn't about absolving personal responsibility and hoping other people will look out for you, its about making it socially acceptable to be cycling, and to get rid of the aggression directed towards us, and part of that is going to be a slow culture shift rather than direct attack, and the more the mainstream media can be a part of that the better, sadly at the moment they spend more time re-enforcing the wrong message, even un-intentionally sometimes.
Well here a bloke got about 3 months suspended for driving into the back of a cyclist and killing him instantly on a clear day on a 2 dual crarrigeway that is a common cycle route. I have been assaulted, had some of the most foul abuse hurled at me, someone else had a glass bottle thrown at them, it's common to be forced off the lane and in the space of 2km have to emergency brake to avoid being taken out by 3 people turning across you. One of Australia's brightest female road riders got taken out by a car who stopped to pick up his wing mirror before driving off.
Chris Froome just signed up for a local crit, looks like he's coming down for a holiday with Richie, not sure if he will make it back.
I have no problem with making drivers take responsibility but I don't expect that anyone has seen me, if they have I expect 20% of them to aim for a punishment pass and the others to be dick heads.
Simply put getting on the road is something you should think about, you should ride like every car is going to hit you, take every advantage of extra senses like hearing that you can and make sure that you do everything to go home alive. With all the will in the world I would expect it to take 10 years minimum to remove the majority of the dick head behavioiur. So apologies for not getting on the bandwagon but anyone who thinks that some nice TV ads will help short term is deluded.
its about making it socially acceptable to be cycling, and to get rid of the aggression directed towards us
This
I'm normally out for a Sunday morning road ride in the peaks. I'd say on 90% of those rides we will get beeped at by at least one motorist for riding 2 abreast. This is on a sunday morning before 10am, in a national park with very light traffic where the longest delay we will every cause any driver is 30s.
And yet people have such rage for cyclists that they behave in this way and their passengers or the people they tell this think it is socially acceptable.
Last Sunday in the peak a HGV driver coming the other way felt the need to lean out of his window and shout "learn the bloody highway code" at us. Oh the ironing. But also it's very concerning that the driver of such a deadly machine a)doesn't know the rules of the road and b) thinks its is a sensible thing to do to take his concentration of the winding road ahead to shout at two people minding their own business going the other way.
And no doubt when he gets to the depot he will have a moan with the other drivers and they will all agree with him and think what is did was justified. Bloody cyclists.
Wouldn't it be nice if articles in the mainstream media showed that this is not acceptable, that cycling is normal and if you act like that you are a bit of a prick, rather than suggesting we as cyclists might have wanted to wear high vis clothes. High vis wouldn't have prevented being abused.
I look forward to them there driverless cars, which (hopefully) will be programmed to follow the highway code 100% and also try to avoid accidents. Jerks won't be *allowed* to pass with micrometres to spare or speed.
So apologies for not getting on the bandwagon but anyone who thinks that some nice TV ads will help short term is deluded.
I don't think that is what people are saying.
They are saying the fight starts now. We wnat to change things from the ground up, it will take time and money but the benefit is so fundament it would be crazy not to do anything.
And every small thing helps (or hinders) whether it's an ariticle in the media, a conversation with friends a decion on the design of a single road junction, through to central government policy, it all matters.
Cycling needs to be seen as normal thing normal people do to get around and people with attitudes like yours hinder that dream, hence why we get a bit irate about it.
slow culture shift rather than direct attack, and the more the mainstream media can be a part of that the better, sadly at the moment they spend more time re-enforcing the wrong message, even un-intentionally sometimes.
Exactly. Articles like the BBC one can be sort of 'passively unhelpful' I think. They're not laying into cyclists directly, but even if well-intentioned they're doing that little bit more to shore up a misleading picture of what the issues are. It's all a little bit more background noise that goes into building up a picture of how things are.
So apologies for not getting on the bandwagon but anyone who thinks that some nice TV ads will help short term is deluded
was going to reply buy jfletch pretty much took the words out fo my mouth.
And someone has to jump on the bandwagon, I'd rather be one of the people pushing for change than not, so I'm on.
None us think it'll be fixed by a few TV ads this winter, but a sustained program of ads, coupled with education, exposure and campaigning for a few years might back it significantly better, you think it might take 10 years or more, it might, but it'll take even longer if we don't start!
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. Personally the things you can do are, well, as listed in several places, but the [i]government[/i] should be working on the bad/careless/idiotic driving that causes the majority of damage, injury and death. The media should be focussing on what the government is not doing and giving them a push to get it done. However what we get is a focus on cyclists protecting themselves and sometimes a bit on the actual issue (infra/bad driving).Call me selfish but me staying alive is priority number 1. Not getting into bad situations is plan a on not getting hit or killed
What I would like to see is a big article about the infrastructure, driver and attitude changes we need for safer cycling and road use in general and then maybe a sidebar on what cyclists can personally do in the current shit conditions while we await the changes.
whilst no-one wants either consequence I think drivers on the whole would be a bit more careful if they realised just how vulnerable we are and tried a little empathy (seemingly short supply on the roads)the consequences to me of a lapse in judgement are more likely to be financial than terminal.
TV ads, along with harsher sentencing, got the drinkdrive message across (mostly). career criminals show that potentially getting into trouble for something doesn't always stop them doing it, making something socially unacceptable (what the tv ads can aim at) may well prevent more people.anyone who thinks that some nice TV ads will help short term is deluded.
Sounds proper shit for cycling where you are Mike, worse so than here, so I find myself kinda surprised at your viewpoint.
Sounds proper shit for cycling where you are Mike, worse so than here, so I find myself kinda surprised at your viewpoint.
It's probably the number of seemingly reasonable people you meet who then drop in the "Well they should get out of the road when they are holding people up" etc.
My road rides are limited to some fairly quiet areas, the other issue I have is the number of ****less cyclists who do some of the worst things imaginable,
Gutter Huggers who the have to pull out round parked cars without looking,
Dropping off cyclepaths (pavements ones) directly into traffic
500m into a charity ride on open roads after a briefing about obeying the road rules nearly flattening me for stopping at a red light
Groups racing/sprinting across 2 lanes of an open road.
Edit# then people getting arsey when it's suggested that maybe not wearing headphones might be a good idea, or the lot all out on black bikes in black kit complaining about being told that something more visible might be better.
but you're conflating properly risky stuff (I don't think anyone on here is going to defend riding without looking where you're going) with perfectly acceptable [i]legal[/i] stuff. No real evidence either way on headphones and hi viz (and headphones) is lumped in with helmets as the rather annoying "protect yourself coz we aren't going to help you" government/media message - also these [i]social rules[/i] are only applied to cyclists not the majority (drivers and pedestrians)
When cycling into work in the morning, I always assume that all drivers are half-asleep and aren't paying any attention. In the evenings, I assume that drivers are too concerned with getting home or turning around and talking to their children in the back-seat to notice me. This may be doing the alert, attentive drivers a disservice, but it keeps me as safe as I can. It only takes one not to pay attention, and if I can compensate for that, then I will.
Generally, the vast majority of the time, cycle commuting in Edinburgh has been incident free, however, there have been a few limited incidents when the "must get past" mentality of drivers has put me directly at risk. And that is UNACCEPTABLE. In any circumstances
I take a positive position in the lane, leaving where possible, room for drivers to overtake. There are certain sections of the commute, particularly where there are traffic islands or blind bends, where I will take a position so that drivers shouldn't even think about overtaking or there is no doubt that they can see me, as I have nearly been taken out before. Soon as I am past, I will move back in to the left.
It's getting dark now so I will have 2 lights upfront and 2 at the back. One on constant and one on flashing. I want to be seen by all and leave no doubt that I am a well lit cyclist coming towards you.
Freedom of choice isn't it..? There are actions we can all take to try and keep ourselves safe, even if we think that it is compensating for the responsibility of drivers not to endager our lives. You need to do what you feel is right. That's what I do.
And that's also what we, and most other people do, nobody is suggesting you do otherwise.
Our gripe is with the general media focus on the '[i]what can you as a cyclist do to mitigate for people driving into you[/i]' aspect rather than on the '[i]lets stop people driving into you[/i]' aspect.
Those incidents you speak of are unacceptable, yes, yet still the focus is not on stopping them.
You're at more risk from those drivers even when you are lit up like an be-hatted Xmas tree, than you ever are from the safe ones even if you were riding to work in your suit.
From 1988...
“I had to ride slow because I was taking my guerrilla route, the one I follow when I assume that everyone in a car is out to get me. My nighttime attitude is, anyone can run you down and get away with it. Why give some drunk the chance to plaster me against a car? That's why I don't even own a bike light, or one of those godawful reflective suits. Because if you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see you in order for you to be safe--to see you, and to give a ****--you've already blown it... We had a nice ride through the darkness. On those bikes we were weak and vulnerable, but invisible, elusive, aware of everything within a two-block radius.”
? Neal Stephenson, Zodiac
I am not deaf and struggle to hear traffic behind me when travelling at speed or it is particularly windy. The only accident, that wasn't my fault was due to oncopming traffic glare. And I was on a cycle path. I hit a granite marker post (1ft high) ended up in the road, both front lights smashed to peices. Several miles still to travel. The driver saw what happened and stopped. Immediately she said why was I cycling on the road when you have a cycle path? I explained I was on the cycle path and that her light glare caused the accident. She was horrified. And very apologetic. I have had drivers stop me on bright clear days and complain about [u]my[/u] lack of visibility! Even with high viz everything on! Even high viz jacket on top of my rucsac. Drivers tend to assume it is cyclists fault even when it clearly is not. One driver complained to me that I shouldn't be cycling on green lanes due to there not being enough space to pass me quickly! Even though I am always willing to press my body tight into a bramble/nettle rich hedge to let the traffic pass - dangly bramble, oh how I hate you more than a car driver hates a cyclist.
[i] I have had drivers stop me[/i]
Be interested to know how that works...