[Closed] Bad cycling - whats the answer?

prezet - Member
Cars are bigger, less manoeuvrable and cause more damage to things they hit for a start.

Like a cyclist going through a red?

Sorry, I don't get what you're implying?

Its a big problem. Whenever cycling comes into a conversation at work the conversation turns to how they are all law breaking red light jumpers.

When the majority of cyclists start respecting the laws of the road, drivers will start respecting our right to be on the road. You don't get cars jumping red lights just because they can see its clear to go.

And I don't think the argument that cyclists only endanger themselves by going through red lights has any weight either...if a driver finds a cyclist in his path, they have three options, brake, swerve or both. All three options (especially the third) have the potential to cause a crash between other cars or pedestrians. Its the same with irresponsible motorbikers...I'm only endangering myself, except when a car leaves the road trying to avoid the motorbike or the rider ends up headbutting the driver through the windscreen.

You don't get cars jumping red lights just because they can see its clear to go.

Just to re-iterate, you do. I see it every day.

Education and training from an early age and ongoing IMO.

A lot of what I call bad cycling - whether experienced people or newbies - I think comes from a lack of understanding of the law, their rights, and the dangers they are in. Of from a lack of confidence which also comes from a lack of understanding of how to ride assertively and defensively.

If you think about it, if some people are aware of how to cycle safely then it's possible for everyone to be aware how to cycle safely. The knowledge exists but not everyone has it.

Training and education transfers that knowledge to the cycling masses. Proven courses (Bikeability) already exist.

I guess the debate really has to be around how to fund it and whether it should be made compulsory.

The odd car going through on amber/red is a bit different to lingering over the line and then driving through a junction still on red.

Its very rare I see a car properly jump a red light, and usually its an inattentive driver rather than deliberate. The last deliberate jumper I saw was 18 months ago on a small cross roads, I sounded my horn as I stopped and at the same time the two cars crossing the crossroads both did an emergency stop with their horns going, the three of us scared the **** out of the driver and he ended up stuck in the middle of the junction 🙂

Actually there is an answer. It's general attitude. I reckon that within about 20 years (probably less in London) the entrenched attitude will have shifted enough for it to make a real difference.

Fuel isn't going to get any cheaper. More people are riding more and more. More cyclists on the roads = safer roads, motorists more used to seeing and dealing with cyclists etc.

What needs to change is the almost constant stream of stereotyped articles in certain areas of the press (yes Daily Mail, I'm thinking of you) portraying cyclists as a bunch of tax-dodging poor people who deliberately go round looking to run over old ladies and cut up those poor hard-done-by car drivers.

spooky_b329

When the majority of cyclists start respecting the laws of the road, drivers will start respecting our right to be on the road. You don't get cars jumping red lights just because they can see its clear to go.

I actually believe that one is the other way around - because of the lack of respect for cyclists they feel they have nothing to lose by ignoring traffic law.

RLJ can be done perfectly safely. Many junctions where you can see in all directions or where you can go thru on the greenman slowly and carefully

I am convinced at some badly designed junctions its safer to RLJ sometimes.

Crazy legs - I think I have seen an attitude shift in Edinburgh over 20 years as more folk cycle. Buses now are no great issue wheras they sued to be. Cycles ar so normal now on the roads.

When the majority of cyclists start respecting the laws of the road, drivers will start respecting our right to be on the road. You don't get cars jumping red lights just because they can see its clear to go.

I was in the middle of typing out a reply to this but TJ has summed it up far better. If you believe that motorists will suddenly give cyclists respect cos every rider obeys every single road traffic rule, you're very deluded.

The odd car going through on amber/red is a bit different to lingering over the line and then driving through a junction still on red.

How about the lights cycling red, then 2 or 3 cars driving through anyway?

Or driving through becuase you had to give way to an emergency vehicle and lost 'your' chance to slip through?

Or becuase everything is backed up apart from your lane, so you'll nip through while it is gridlocked?

Or nipping through on the buslane and veering back across?

Or using the left filter lane, then U turning round the reservation, then filtering left again?*

... and that is just on the RLJ question, pot calling the kettle black.

*this one is a favorite trick of mine on the bike now. I got the idea after watching a First Bristol Bus do it.

Good cycling.

There is a diffrence between poor cycling and reckless

Round here I don't see reckless riding

I think that in London the Police might need to patrol a few high profile spots. Catch the total idiots and fine them ot in pound their bikes for a bit

How about a change to the high way code so bicycles give way at red lights?

spooky_b329 - Member
The odd car going through on amber/red is a bit different to lingering over the line and then driving through a junction still on red.

Its very rare I see a car properly jump a red light, and usually its an inattentive driver rather than deliberate. The last deliberate jumper I saw was 18 months ago on a small cross roads,

You obviously don't live around here.

I have to cross a main road to take the kids to school and bring them home. I would say that I'll have about 20+ cars deliberately driving through the red lights per week, across a pedestrian crossing, sometimes stopping on the crossing itself in the queue of cars. I once counted 9 cars in a row going through the (very obvious) lights.

It's a problem to the extent that we have approached the police and council, and I will happily step back into the traffic to stop the RLJing car and point out what a moron the driver is.

The problem isn't purely at this set of lights - throughout Swansea you have to be careful when crossing a road on a green man.

And of course the relevance is that I don't care, really don't care whether it's a car or bike that jumps the lights - if they injure my kids, the only difference will be the severity.

In the STW perfect world a cyclist will scan for anybody waiting to cross, in the real world it won't happen.

Would I get shouted at if I suggested to a certain extent there is a reliance on Darwinian principles?

Darwin is too slow - and the merely incompetent - what about them?

If Darwin doesn't get them then they're competent enough.

We do, thanks. We're discussing how to get all people on bikes to do the same.

My point was aimed at the riders who seem to think it's acceptable to run red lights.

Sorry, I don't get what you're implying?

I was implying the damage they do when they do actually hit a rider who's run a red.

Even if car drivers are seen to run red, we shouldn't see it as a "if they can do it, why shouldn't I" attitude. We should be setting a good example to motorists, as well as other cyclists.

I have no hesitation to pull other riders up on running reds why I catch their slow arses up...

I believe discussing it at great length on a forum will sort it.

I have no hesitation to pull other riders up on running reds why I catch their slow arses up...

I want to see a big public info campaign aimed at pricking people's consciences. Aimed at BOTH motorists and cyclists. We're all in it together, less of this tribalism.

I've rode through about 40 million red lights in my time and never came close to causing an accident of any sort..I remain unconvinced that it's dangerous, wrong or even bad cycling..

I'm of the same view as Seosamh77.

I have never caused an accident or injury to others as a result of my riding.

I want to see a big public info campaign aimed at pricking people's consciences. Aimed at BOTH motorists and cyclists. We're all in it together, less of this tribalism.

I have never caused an accident or injury to others as a result of my riding.

No and I can sympathise with this but aren't you missing a bit of an important point? You are a road user and subject to the rules of the road. Whenever I get drawn into conversations with motorists about cycle use it's people like you that they use to support their arguments for regulation, segregation and banning outright.

I always stop at red lights, signal properly etc. Not because I want to, not because I have to. Because by playing the game I feel like I'm helping in some small way to get a bit more respect for me and fellow cyclists. Plus it's good for practising track stands.

Maybe I'm the mug and maybe my approach is naive. I cannot see cyclists ever being treated equally by road planners or the judiciary. We need to influence other road users first and foremost. After all they are the ones trying to kill us!

Personally i think the biggest issue is that cyclists aren't pedestrians and we aren't motorists, we inhabit the limbo inbetween.

Laws should probably be changed to reflect this as expecting us to follow every rule of the road and excluding us from pavements is probably unrealistic, so people follow what they feel is safe..

Change the law and advertise the **** out of it may be an idea, showing what you can/can't do.

For example of the top of my head: I reckon there are far too many red lights that really should be give ways for cyclists, easy enough to come up with simple rules much like you are taught as a child about crossing roads with out lights. Or that at busy periods some times it's acceptable to ride on the pavements and allow traffic to flow especially for slower riders. Riding 2 up during busy periods is unacceptable. When you ride on a pavement the pedestrian always has the right of way.. etc etc, really needs a proper group to have a look at it.. But as I say the current laws are unrealistic IMO, I know the rules of the road myself, well mostly, most of the time i choose to ignore them..

I'm of the same view as Seosamh77.

I have never caused an accident or injury to others as a result of my riding.

That's called 'tempting fate'.

So what if, as a result of obeying every single law of the road, I caused an accident or injury to someone? What would you say then? 'Tempting fate'?

I always stop at red lights, signal properly etc.

I usually stop at red lights. I only jump the ones where it's completely 100% safe to do so. I don't really care what the car drivers think. They're probbly too busy texting or fiddling with their sat-nav to notice me anyway, if my experiences are anything to go by. What I do doesn't affect how they view cyclists anyway. A carful considerate driver will always look out for cyclists and drive with appropriate caution. Saying that I might in some way 'set a bad example' is suggesting then that car drivers will then deliberately drive badly and dangerously around cyclists as a result. What utter nonsense. They just drive badly anyway, and want to foist the blame onto someone else. The cyclist is an easy target.

seosamh77 - Member
Personally i think the biggest issue is that cyclists aren't pedestrians and we aren't motorists, we inhabit the limbo inbetween.

You still haven't explained why any one set of road users should expect to be treated differently from other. If a bike can go through a red light when it seems to be safe for him, why can't a car? If there's a big enough gap for a bike, that's more than enough for a car. Oh hold on, it would turn into a free-for-all with everyone saying, 'well that gap is big enough for me'.

Or that at busy periods some times it's acceptable to ride on the pavements and allow traffic to flow especially for slower riders.

I'm waiting for the day when one of the dipstick pavement riders collides with my dog as I step out of my front door.

Seosamh, you are looking at road use in a very selfish way.

Pavements are bike free so that I can step out of my door in safety, can run across the road and onto the pavement without being hit by a bike who wasn't aware of my presence, can walk around the corner happily, etc, etc.

You still haven't explained why any one set of road users should expect to be treated differently from other.

It's quite obvious though really, isn't it? Come on, think about it.

I'm waiting for the day when one of the dipstick pavement riders collides with my dog as I step out of my front door.

And I'm waiting for the day some dipstick dog owner steps out in front of me with their stupid mutt not under proper control, oh no wait, that happens all the time.... 😐

You still haven't explained why any one set of road users should expect to be treated differently

Because they are different.

If a bike can go through a red light when it seems to be safe for him, why can't a car?

There's definitely a case for reviewing the laws for motorist too probably, I'm not a motorist though, so that's not my battle..

Seosamh, you are looking at road use in a very selfish way.

Yep same as every other road user out there.

Pavements are bike free so that I can step out of my door in safety

I'm waiting for the day when one of the dipstick pavement riders collides with my dog as I step out of my front door.

And I'm waiting for the day some dipstick dog owner steps out in front of me with their stupid mutt not under proper control, oh no wait, that happens all the time....

And if you are on the pavement it will be entirely your fault, obviously.

Erm, it happens on cycle paths, towpaths, roads, all over the place actually...

So, what exactly would you do if a cyclist ran into your precious hound whilst riding on a pavement then?

You still haven't explained why any one set of road users should expect to be treated differently from other. If a bike can go through a red light when it seems to be safe for him, why can't a car? If there's a big enough gap for a bike, that's more than enough for a car.

Last time I checked, my bike was a lot narrower than a car and fitted through gaps about 18" wide. I'm not going to try and fit my car through a gap like that. Bikes just merge with traffic, cars don't.

Modern roads, junctions, traffic lights are designed for cars. It's often safer and more convenient both for motorists and cyclists if the bike can just nip through [b]provided it's done safely[/b].
There's a right turn at a complicated junction with various light phases on my commute. It's FAR safer for me to jump the first set (when safe) then wait at the second, it buys me an extra 20m of clear road space. If I waited til the first set changed, I'd be trying to negotiate a narrow right hander on a very dodgy road surface with all the cars trying to get round me at the same time. If I jump the first set it means the drivers don't have to deal with a moving slalom post and I get some clear space.

No one is saying "ignore red lights, they don't matter". What people are saying is "red lights can, on occasion, be safely negotiated with care". Most motorists unfortunately only think "bastard cyclist jumping light" rather than thinking "oh, that kind considerate cyclist has actually got out of my way thus allowing me to proceed more quickly".

Elfinsafety - Member

So, what exactly would you do if a cyclist ran into your precious hound whilst riding on a pavement then?

So your argument that riding on pavements should be legalised is based on the fact that it happens quite a lot already, and since I can't do anything about it if I'm run over by a pavement cyclist, then what difference does it make?

No go on, what would you do?

Are you trying to start a fight? I'd be more impressed if you didn't have and LCD monitor and a couple of hundred miles between you and your would be victim. But still, you come across as being really hard. Well done.

😆 Elfin, go and perv at your Mini!

I'm going to have a pee and do the dishes. Can't be bothered arguing with you dog-botherers anymore.

Goodnight.

Are you trying to start a fight?

Who, me? No, not me, honest guv...

I'd be more impressed if you didn't have and LCD monitor and a couple of hundred miles between you and your would be victim. But still, you come across as being really hard. Well done.

I'd be more impressed if you din't take this nonsense so seriously.... 😉

I'm going to have a pee and do the dishes

😯

That seems a little unhygienic if you ask me...

you come across as being really hard

I thought my webcam was off 😕

Saying that I might in some way 'set a bad example' is suggesting then that car drivers will then deliberately drive badly and dangerously around cyclists as a result. What utter nonsense. They just drive badly anyway, and want to foist the blame onto someone else. The cyclist is an easy target.

It's you that's talking BS elfin and you know it. Setting a poor example does two things actually, it makes less experienced and skilled cyclists thinks it's ok and thereby increasing the frequency of red light jumping. Frankly if you think that motorists don't lose respect for cyclists when they watch them doing whatever they like then you need a reality check. It's not actually you that tends to cop the flak for it, it's the next poor ****er. Yes it might be an excuse, but it's still you thats the catalyst.

It's you that's talking BS elfin and you know it.

No you are so ner.

You never drive above the speed limit then? Never ever transgressed any laws ever?

Frankly if you think that motorists don't lose respect for cyclists when they watch them doing whatever they like then you need a reality check.

Do you not wonder why I have such little respect for car drivers? Am I right to judge [i]all[/i] of them just because [i]most[/i] of them drive badly?

Is a bad driver more or less likely to kill me than a cyclist jumping a red light with no risk to anyone else?

Whaddyou reckon?

No you are so ner.
You never drive above the speed limit then? Never ever transgressed any laws ever?

Not relevant, grasping at straws. Stop it. 🙂

Do you not wonder why I have such little respect for car drivers? Am I right to judge all of them just because most of them drive badly?

Yes you are entirely right and we are in 100% accord on this. The answer is not to do whatever the f@ck you want on the roads though. For me I'll take the moral high ground on the road, I'll obey the law, behave like a car (a well driven one) and in return I insist on being treated properly by everybody else. For your info I don't drive. I rely on my bikes for everything, so I've seen a lot of shit driving...and shit riding...

Is a bad driver more or less likely to kill me than a cyclist jumping a red light with no risk to anyone else?

I don't really understand what you're saying, illumination please.

you come across as being really hard
I thought my webcam was off

Funny. I've just snotted milk down my nostrils. 😆