[Closed] Attitudes - drivers and cyclists

Why play in traffic when there is all that beautiful country to run / ride off road in

True but I use the tarmaccy bits to get to work sometimes (other days i use the green, singletracky bits)

The best way to make it safer for cyclists on the road in a given place is for there to be more cyclists there. It's been shown in many studies that I can't be arsed to google. The drivers get used to it eventually.

I've been working with Cycle Exeter which was a demonstration/pilot project for a government initiative leading to the nomination of seven cycling towns in the UK where money has been/is being spent to encourage cycling. It is clear that attitudes have changed, not least because more and more drivers are now also riders.

bassspine - Member
The best way to make it safer for cyclists on the road in a given place is for there to be more cyclists there. It's been shown in many studies that I can't be arsed to google. The drivers get used to it eventually.

Which is why I am generally against the provision of off-road cycle lanes.

me too, druidh

I want car drivers to expect to share the road. I teach bikeability and it's all about being assertive and safe on the road.

At the risk of being argumentative 🙂 some places a cycleway makes a huge difference if properly designed - separated space at a nasty junction - that sort of thing.

However the rubbish we get palmed off with as cycle lanes is worse than useless.

Some cyclists don't help themselves by going through red lights, riding at night without lights etc. No excuse for the kind of attitudes shown above but as always it only takes one numpty to bring down the rest in the eyes of the motorist.

The cycle lanes that split off and go on footpaths and then pop you out onto the road suddenly at intersections and other random places are some of the worst.

The painted cycle lanes on the roads seem to be a better option. At least you are out where the traffic can see you and know you are there!!

Specific cycle lanes separated completely from roads are ok too, but in many towns there is no space for this to happen.

I saw some really bad road riding last night - e.g. going the wrong way around a mini-roundabout.

Druidh - you nearly suckered me into to a debate on that. I deleted the post

I see a half dozen or so bike RLJers* and dozens of people with no lights** etc. every single day on my cycle commute. Added to the fact that Bristol is a complete sh1t to drive around, there is some seriously dodgy filtering going on*** - Bristol is getting a very very angry place indeed in rush hour.

*outdone only by the number of motorists RLJing.

**outdone only by the number of motor vehicles with defective/badly adjusted/ripped off lights, mirrors, misted windows ...

***I have to confess I'm rather, er, robust, when slicing through traffic.

Nearly got hit today after some guy just decided It's no longer necessary to look right when turning right, apparently lefts all good and just keep that car rolling into the road and it'll all be ok! Honestly I properly lost it with him, such an idiot. Thing is the very same guy nearly did it to me three weeks ago. What's the verdict?

I laughed that a tractor beeped at me this morning on my commute. There is some irony there! The sheer impatience of some folk is astounding. Going OT I do like taking my time overtaking on a motorway when some twunt gets on my bumper. Just 'cos your in a rush doesnt mean i am.

Cycling proficiency, mandatory. Not just for cyclists, for everyone.
Heavy emphasis on identifying vulnerable road users and treating them appropriately. Heavy emphasis on obeying road rules.

Don't forget, there's no such thing as a bad driver or a bad cyclist, just bad road users. Rubbish road users are the same no matter what mode of transport they use.

That or tool up. I suspect I'd get a lot more room at traffic lights if the car drivers knew I was carrying a piece.

Thanks, i thought i was going mental trying to have a rational discussion with drivers who simply say "You shouldn't be there"

Its an impatience thing for sure, i had some guy almost try and throttle me for delaying him for maybe I dunno 3 seconds so he could u turn and drive into his driveway. It was truly bizarre.

That or tool up. I suspect I'd get a lot more room at traffic lights if the car drivers knew I was carrying a piece.

Do you think a mock AK47 strapped across ya back would work?? Perhaps missile launchers facing forward and backwards off the bike, 007 styles??

NZCol to be frank its an attitude thats there regarding all people on the roads not just cyclists.We really have a problem with peps and vehicles.It amazes me that the road tolls not bigger.Having driven in many countries in the world i rate our driving attitube up there with the worst.

Interesting mix of comments:

"Simple, get them off the roads! Its obvious, if you take on trucks and cars dressed in lycra wearing a plastic hat you are going to get hurt."

I am sorry - but there is no space for cyclists on the road - they need their own lane they are the biggest hazard, they put themselves in alot of danger by being on the road.

If the woman who allegedly killed three cyclists last weekend by cutting a blind corner is found guilty, no-one could argue that we should wait for a better reason to strengthen the penalties for NZ's mindless driving.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/your-views/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10688392&pnum=2

one thing that makes a HUGE difference when you cycle is having a head cam conspicuously mounted on your head (or an exposure joystick, it looks like a camera to the uneducated...)

Do away with pavements & road furniture, mix peds & cyclists & motorised traffic together, improve public transport, treat all travelling users whether on foot, bike, bus or car the same.

Do away with pavements & road furniture, mix peds & cyclists & motorised traffic together, improve public transport, treat all travelling users whether on foot, bike, bus or car the same.

stevenmenmuir - Member
Some cyclists don't help themselves by going through red lights, riding at night without lights etc. No excuse for the kind of attitudes shown above but as always it only takes one numpty to bring down the rest in the eyes of the motorist.

I'm not trying to excuses bad cycling but this get your own house in order argument is pretty poor. The level of rule breaking amongst motorist is pretty high too but the important fact is the level of consequence of a motorist breaking the rules is much greater. The problem of bad cycling is not even the same order of magnitude as the problem of bad driving but somehow it seems to get as much press coverage and weighting. Like I said not to say bad cycling is not an issue but it's not as big an issue as people make out.

I'm not trying to personally attack you here so sorry if it comes across this way, it's more the general, "cyclist jump red light hence they don't deserve any respect argument".

This argument would never be used against say lorry drivers in a different case or against any other group of people in an non road setting.

The best thing you can do for cycling is to encourage cycling and encourage cycle training at all ages.

The most anything thing about comment form the link posted by lucked2
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/your-views/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10688392&pnum=2
/p>

is that they can be very easily destroyed but people are bigots, people like to have a group of people to blame for the problems in x situations. On the road cyclist are a popular fall guy. People love to hate cyclists.

Works in the Netherlands. I was amazed

I know. That's why I mentioned it 🙄

i think better, and more regular training for all road users would be a better idea.

Let us get better together. their are loads of rubbish drivers/cyclists taxi drivers etc etc.

I was almost run off the road by a bus last month; when i caught up with him he thought i should have been in the cycle lane; it's the edge markings on the road and about 6" wide!!

What thebrick said.

Its simple petty jealousy on the part of motorists.

It has to be, there is no logical reason to hate cyclists.

Every person on a bike is not taking up 6 times the road space in a car. If a cyclist runs a light in front of me or rides round a light on a pavement while i'm in the car it causes me no inconvenience at all, rationally, from the point of view of me driving, it would be better for all cyclists to set off early at all juctions as it leaves the junction clear for me when the lights turn green.

Buses, HGV etc all share the road with cars and in an urban environment go about the same speed as cyclists yet the same abuse isn't directed towards them and a bus will hold you up a lot longer than a cyclist will.

I have come to the conclusion that, in spite of what the law requires in terms of the duty of care each road user owes to one another, in reality almost all drivers consider that they owe a lower standard of care to anyone not inside a vehicle.

Sadly, the courts continue to perpetuate this, by taking the view that injury and death to pedestrians/horse riders and cyclists is just collateral damage in the need for everyone to drive everywhere without hindrance or regard for their fellow man.

NZ is a car culture. Little or no public transport so everyone drives from a very young age. Some towns the youngsters have nothing to do but cruise up and down the one high street of the township to the sound of dump valves. I was scared driving there let alone riding on the tarmac. I can't see it changing much there.

Top Gear is the number 1 show there....

Partly agree with richmtb above.

I'd say the other big thing is simply mental attitude, so many people have, for so many years, almost had it drilled into them that the car is king, roads are there for cars, "road tax" etc and for years towns and cities have been designed around the car.

It's an ingrained part of (many) peoples psyche and they get upset, angry, frustrated with sitting there in queues etc.

To be held up by another car is one thing but to be held up by someone who hasn't had to pass a test, buy insurance, pay "road tax" (yes, I know the arguments but that's not the way most motorists see it), spend ££££ on a car etc is a huge affront to their dignity.

I was riding 2 abreast into work the other day with a mate, slight downhill and we're doing 25mph, mingling nicely with the traffic which is doing about the same speed. Yet behind me, this car was insistently beeping me to move over (there was plenty of space to overtake). Point was though she couldn't get anywhere, we were IN the flow of traffic. She eventually raced past, got 10m down the road and had to brake for the back end of the traffic jam - we sailed on past her. It was just her attitude, her complete lack of understanding, the idea that she MUST overtake the cyclist NOW, we MUST be slowing her down.
🙄

ourmaninthenorth - Member
I have come to the conclusion that, in spite of what the law requires in terms of the duty of care each road user owes to one another, in reality almost all drivers consider that they owe a lower standard of care to anyone not inside a vehicle.

Sadly, the courts continue to perpetuate this, by taking the view that injury and death to pedestrians/horse riders and cyclists is just collateral damage in the need for everyone to drive everywhere without hindrance or regard for their fellow man.

I would agree. This is an excellent blog post on this subject.

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2009/11/cycling-against-car-culture.html

and in general his blog is full of interesting cycling legal cases.
http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/

I have come to the conclusion that, in spite of what the law requires in terms of the duty of care each road user owes to one another, in reality almost all drivers consider that they owe a lower standard of care to anyone not inside a vehicle.

Sadly, the courts continue to perpetuate this, by taking the view that injury and death to pedestrians/horse riders and cyclists is just collateral damage in the need for everyone to drive everywhere without hindrance or regard for their fellow man.

Depressingly true.

Money money money. Initial cost of vehicle purchase aside, the average person views cycling and walking as free, whereas motoring costs money. Thus motoring has a higher priority. Money money money.

The same principle is at work in cases where damage to property is viewed as more serious than similar damage to humans. Money money money.

Of course, some people simply enjoy venting rage at people who are unlikely to respond.

I live in a small town about 12 miles from the centre of Glasgow and my daily commute is on my fixed gear along canal path for much of the way, a pleasant way to go on the whole. Yesterday my plans were slightly different and I rode the winter roadie in on the main road the whole way. Cars were queueing from the edge of my town all the way to the city centre, with no obvious obstruction other than the number of vehicles on the road.

The people I passed shortly after I left home must have taken twice as long as me to reach the same destination. This must drive the less well-adjusted of them mental, and that's the sort of thing that gives rise to the feelings in the OP. Crazy, because its their fault, not mine!

"You're not stuck IN the traffic, you ARE the traffic".

Attitudes take a generation or two to change. NZ (and Oz) is stuck in the 1970's in many other cutural ways it seems.

Peak oil, the impending and inevitable world energy crisis, and big hikes in road fuel prices (oh yes, we've seen nothing yet..) will hopefully help to temper the attitudes over there (and elswhere) within a few years.

One aspect that would help is much tougher enforcement of road law and much tougher driving tests - real zero tolerance. That would get rid of some of the most objectionable drivers quickly

Josey Dew rode around the world and she found NZ the worst of all place to ride in. The US and UK are catching up fast 🙁

Reasons?

Social attitudes generally have changed over the last 30 years, people now think about themselves first and rarely about others and society generally. It's reflected in all areas of life but especially on the roads - which of course have got busier and more congested. People spend longer in their cars now than they do sleeping apparently! Road rage is a modern term.

Social attitudes towards cyclists stem from multiple complex issues starting with perceived class differences. Generalising hugely, in the old days it was the working classes who rode bikes now it's more likely to be the affluent, educated, socially aware and middle class.
The working class have got it in for them from the start.

Children grow up being transported around in cars, not walking or cycling. They become car drivers without ever having experienced life as a cyclist.

The Driving Test does nothing to address any of the above. It is failing.

True accident stats are falling but that in large part is due to technological and egineeering advances not driver skills.

I'm tempted to junk it all and go back to jogging but its not as fun for me.

Wear bright colours, cycle sensibly and don't hold a que of cars up -let them get through now and again.

I think generally drivers who drive and act like arseholes towards cyclists also drive and act like arseholes to other drivers too - it is just when i am on my bike rather in my car i am alot more self conscious about it happening and also much more on the lookout for the bad road behaviour to try and take evasive action if needed.

There does seem to be alot of cyclist hate in some newspaper columns and particularly comments on articles - partly this is a result of a few bigots stirring it up - they are self aware enough to know that ranting about "****s, ****s and poofs" is going to make them look like ****s, so they find an outlet for their inadequacies by hating on a group that it still deemed ok to abuse.

Wear bright colours, cycle sensibly and don't hold a que of cars up -let them get through now and again.

You know, I have no problem with this. But, it's the same point I made above - the duty of care for drivers towards cyclists is deemed so low, that cyclists have to take *extra* care of themselves because it is assumed that drivers don't need to offer that care to cyclists.

We've all seen the increasing rise in questioning whether a cyclist was wearing a helmet when involved in an accident - it effectively determines that cyclists should expect to be struck by cars, and so protect themselves accordingly. That's insanity - I'm just skin and bones in the open air; drivers are skin and bones in huge lumps of metal they seem barely able to control.

If there was a suggesiton all cars be fitted with reflective patches, more lights and all drivers required to wear helemts, there'd be f---ing outcry at the inconvenience of it all, but because I choose to ride to and from work and on the roads it's fine for them to drive at me because they've deemed y presence to be a slight on their unimpeded progress to wherever.

they are self aware enough to know that ranting about "****s, ****s and poofs" is going to make them look like ****,

I think they are aware that it is socially unacceptable but do not really understand why it is socially unacceptable and why it has no logic. Hence the move onto the next random hate figure.

Sorry TJ, but it completely hypocritical of you to call for tougher enforcement of road laws when you openly flout them yourself.

I was riding 2 abreast into work the other day with a mate, slight downhill and we're doing 25mph, mingling nicely with the traffic which is doing about the same speed. Yet behind me, this car was insistently beeping me to move over (there was plenty of space to overtake). Point was though she couldn't get anywhere, we were IN the flow of traffic. She eventually raced past, got 10m down the road and had to brake for the back end of the traffic jam - we sailed on past her. It was just her attitude, her complete lack of understanding, the idea that she MUST overtake the cyclist NOW, we MUST be slowing her down.

This.

Happens all the time, my closest call recently was travelling home on my regular commute, slightly downhill so my speed was easily 25mph plus, woman in a Focus starts overtaking (without actually moving much faster than me) sees a bus coming the other way and start pulling back into the left while she is still along side me. I had to bang on her window to stop her squashing me.

100 yards later at the traffic lights I was ahead of her again

Its the mentality of "you are only on a bike so I have to pass you, and if its a bit tight thats okay because its only a cyclist not another human being just on their way home from work"

Its the mentality of "you are only on a bike so I have to pass you, and if its a bit tight thats okay because its only a cyclist not another human being just on their way home from work"

Car drivers just automatically assume that a bike is travelling at no more than 10mph.

So it won't be a problem to overtake.

I think TJ hinted at the solution earlier - you need a sizeable chunk of car drivers to also be cyclists.

The way to make that happen is bottom-up and top-down:

bottom-up: improve cycle facilities, cycle-to-work schemes, etc. All dull and worthy but it makes cycling viable.

top-down: politicians, county councillors, county chief executives should all cycle more or be barred from talking about transport issues, since they will be too [b]ignorant[/b].

It sounds like in New Zealand, as here, part of the problem is the fact that people are getting their information about the world around them from a bunch of catchphrase-bandying tossrags, rather than proper media that encourages a bit of thought and perspective.

Thus complex issues of sustainable transport and societal behaviour patterns get reduced to scapegoating cyclists with "You don't pay road tax".

My commute passes through Bristol city centre (It's 30 miles ew and I'm not man enough if anyone asks why I don't ride) and I see some shocking cycling by commuters. Hitting a cycling commuter wearing black with no lights, riding at 15mph across a pedestrian crossing is a real possibility almost every day and as a cyclist that would make be feel pretty sh*t even though they would be to blame.
However I agree that the consequences to others is low unlike the equally bad car driving. TJ and Luked 2 are correct and all car drivers should be forced to do cycling test. Equally if cyclist were forced to drive or be at least be a passenger on their commute they would see how the issues car drivers have in not seeing cyclists, especially those not obeying the rules of the road.
I lift share on my commute and my other 2 guys I share with I perfectly decent people who I consider to be friends but when I point out them needing to give cyclists more space they just don't get it. The other week we came round a bend on a country lane to find cyclist riding 2 abreast, my lift share's attitude was that the cyclist were basically asking to get killed and it wouldn't be his fault. I pointed out that it could just of easily been a tractor but he just didn't get it.

If someone wants to drive badly there's not much you can do, I just thank the good ones as they hold back when I turn right or when going through traffic furniture etc and make it a very obvious gesture in the hope following traffic see it and they follow the other's example.