At what point does a HT become better than a gravel bike?

As soon as the bumps become more than gravel sized a mountain bike is better than a gravel bike IMO. So in short, as soon as you’re off gravel roads, you’ll be having more fun on a mountain bike.

Bridleways and mixed riding, I'll take the gravel bike.

Singletrack and woodland bermy trails, hardtail or rigid MTB :). A rigid MTB flies and with a big front tyre and some nice carbon bars like OneUp it takes the sting out of the bumps.

Simple really the hardtail is better when the gravel bike becomes less fun and the MTB more fun.

It's all personal choice. Some of what I ride on a gravel bike might be "better" on a HT MTB but I doubt I'd be having as much fun, in that "throw me a challenge" kind of way.

It's all compromises and personal choice.
I'm all about the fun, not the ultimate speed. And part of that can be being 'underbiked', while enjoying the extra speed.

Would an uber light XC Hardtail on proper fast tyres and wheels be a good comprise?

I think I'd always buy the hardtail.  I just don't get what a gravel bike will give me over a light, racy HT with a clever choice of tires, or at least give me anything I want

But that's just my opinion.  What's your gut telling you?

@prawny I don't suppose it's much help but up until quite recently I e. I just haven't ridden in a while) I used to love riding my fully rigid Sounder Frontier with 29er wheels around the Dog & old blue and it was excellent. With the Frontier you're getting a bit of a mix of gravelish with MTB HT and I can highly recommend it.

Plus of course if you really want to HT it occasionally you just need to fit a 100mm Sus fork when the urge takes you.

Edit: I currently have it set up for commuting with a rack and 2.6 hookworms and that's a real laugh on the roads 🙂

For OP I reckon you'll be happier on a hardtail. If you stick fat slick-ish tyres on there it'll be fast enough on roads AND capable on the fire roads and bridleways.

I always say my 29er is a great gravel bike, and my gravel bike is an extremely comfy road bike.

I'd buy a gravel!  The OP was a roadie so no stranger to drop bars, and a modern bike with discs, slacker geometry and tubeless at the correct pressures will be fun and fast.

An old hybrid isn't really going to compare.

For me if >50% of the ride would be unrideable on a road bike (incl gravel roads that would be crap but still ridable) then I'll take the hardtail.

After riding my gravel bike probably 80% of the time for the last couple of years I've recently got back on the hardtail (SC Highball) and just completely fallen for it again.  To be fair I was probably pushing the gravel bike into more XC'ish terrain than I probably should have but I've re-ridden some of the routes I was doing, including some definite gravel non-xc terrain, on the hardtail and it's simply more fun for me.

In short, the hardtail can do anything the gravel bike can just a bit slower on smoother rides, but there is stuff I wouldn't consider riding on the gravel bike.  The hardtail opens up more options.

I fall off my XC HT harder than my gravel bike..

Rode the HT for the first time in a while last week at Swinley. It creaks a lot, is not as comfortable as my gravel bike and is a lot more fun on the faster, steep, bumpy stuff both up and down.. I could have ridden the gravel bike around the same route (more slowly) and it still would have been fun.

If I had to choose one, gravel bike, as it is fun everywhere, including (gasp) tarmac.,..

What you want there is a rigid MTB aka adventure bike.  They are better to ride than actual HTs because they usually have steeper more road/gravel like angles, and the rigid fork is much more solid and positive. But better than gravel bikes when it's rough. Mine has 2.3 fast MTB tyres on it, a high sweep bar and a dropper, and 1x MTB gears.  It is great to ride on the road, really comfortable and quick, but it can ride anywhere I can ride an MTB just more slowly - much more slowly on certain descents!  I built it for the local riding here which can involve 20 or more miles of road, steep fire road, rocky tracks and the occasional technical descent.

At what point does the terrain start to favour a 29er HT over a gravel bike?

When your ability to ride the gravel bike on the terrain you've chosen runs out.

It’s nice crazy close. Round here I can ride with some one a hard tail and neither bike seems wrong

From what you’ve said I’d go hardtail

For some people bar shape is the deciding factor

I quite like the extra challenge of the less capable bike off road. Which is clearly ridiculous. Terrain that requires no input on my FS bike requires lots of steering on my gravel bike

NB my gravel bike has 50mm tyres. Which gives it chunk more give over the bumps compared to 38mm

As noted above, it’s all compromises really.
however, an mtb can’t really be adapted for road, in the same way that a road bike can’t really do gravel, and a gravel bike can’t really do proper off road.
pushing the limits of a machine can make terrain more exciting though = cx bike on rooty singletrack.

converse is also true though, eg using a hardtail on gravel tracks, = pretty boring.
i have gravel, rigid mtb and FS ebike.
gravel bike gets most use.
rigid mtb probably most fun though.
but that’s me, not you . .

Gravel bikes are ace for any ride that includes a decent amount of road / country lane and/or gravel fire road, hard packed smooth dirt or sand singletrack that isn’t too steep. They’re great for rides with plenty of “up and along” with mellow downs.

as soon as a trail gets even slightly rocky or steep you can still ride stuff but you need to pick your way down and it all becomes a lot less comfortable.

so depends what you’re going to be riding. I’m lucky to have both and most of the really local trails can be ridden on either ( at different speeds) so depending on mood I ride the more technical stuff fast or ride bigger country lane loops linking up the mellower off-road sections and avoiding the rockier ones...

Tricky to say, as the technicality of an trail and it's roughness are kind of orthogonal

I mean, high volume gravel tyres would be great for a slopestyle course, but dropbars would be petrifying

And on tracks that are rough, chossy but nonetheless straightish and not too steep, dropbars are great, but large volume tyres a must (much larger than gravelbike volumes) and suspension is welcome

An XC bike can be just about as quick as a gravel back in most areas except on the road in my experience, and is way more fun off road. I've got 2 gravel bikes and barely used either since buying the XC.

What molgrips says. Rigid HT is great, I'm currently running a Cotic Cascade with rigid carbon forks and flat mtb bars. It's perfect for bridleways and mashing through easy trails in the woods.

Not great on the road, but that's not what I want it for.

Used to ride the Chase trails 3 nights a week when I stayed in Cannock for work (pre-covid).

Rigid Steel HT 29er with carbon fork was perfect.

I bought a gravel bike last year and love it. I bought it to replace my road bike and my hardtail, still have have a full sus for technical mtbing. I have a Cotic cascade with MTB tyres. It's very capable on everything up to steep technical trails and fast enough for me on the road. I think if you get on with drops a fat tyred gravel bike could be a good option. I have a narrower set of tyres which I put on over the winter as I do more road riding.

I’ve just seen the Sonder Dial, that looks like it could be a good value option, not a huge range of xc race HTs at that price.

Otherwise could do with having a go on a day tyred gravel bike. I’m very happy on drop bars

What kind of riding do you want to make the funnest?

Any bike can do anything, within reason.  You could ride most of BPW on a gravel bike, given a certain amount of skill.  Compared to a 150mm trail bike, you'd be more likely to fall off and hurt yourself, and much less likely to have any fun.

I love my 140mm trail bike because I can go ride all the techy local stuff (and anything uplifty I'd want to throw myself down) pump and push through turns, explore the far limits of my jibby, jumpy type riding, have a ton  of fun and string a 50 mile loop together, though some bits will be a slog.

I love my gravel bike, I can ride most of the local techy stuff, but the buzz on that bike is that it feels so good and so right to absolutely pin it on otherwise non-descript traverses, road sections, slight uphills, stuff that would just be a twiddle and and a time to think on the trail bike.

I go further, see more on the gravel bike, get more value from the flatter areas, rinse myself with the distance.  I hug the steeps on the trail bike, get the value from the tech and the skills, rinse myself with the climbing.

HT and gravel are a bit closer, but the question's the same - what do you want to make the most fun?

@charliedontsurf did a graph once. It was a good graph. Jones Spaceframe covered most of it.

Hand on heart. The second you through a leg over 🙌🏻

HT and gravel are a bit closer, but the question’s the same – what do you want to make the most fun?

Rigid closer still, potentially. Tyre pressure can change the rigid bike from more like a hardtail (without suspension you have to pick your lines carefully with) to more like a (flat barred badly geared for roads) gravel bike... that can still handle some jibbage 😃

I'd say the point where drop bars are taking the fun out of it.

I did a demo on a Cotic Cascade a few months back, I loved it, truly, for climbing and riding along but I am definitely not a drops on the downs kinda guy.

I bought a second hand Pinnacle Ramin 1 with 2.1 tyres and no suspension as a stop gap. By far the best bike I've owned for mile munching go anywhere fun. (yes, this is probably the third topic I've waxed lyrical about it today, I know). Still got the original X Kings, will take a set of Mezcals and nicer wheels but that's just a nice to have for tubeless.

I'd say the point of ditching a gravel bike is when you need that extra volume, say a Cascade or Alice for the drop bar fans or just an old school 29er for flats. They just make so much more sense.

I’d say the point where drop bars are taking the fun out of it.

Agree.  A gravel bike on 45-50c tyres is not going to be that different than an XC bike on fast 54c tyre when it comes to speed other than being able to get into a faster position on the gravel bike.  The difference in that position is not that big though as typical position on an XC bike would have body at similar angle to riding on hoods on gravel bike.

I used to swap bars between flat and drop very regular on the same bike and rode on road, gravel and easy off road and the difference over an hour or two was not noticeable in terms of time but the flat bars just felt more fun.

I would probably go flat bar gravel bike just because it would be lighter than XC bike unless you are spending £10k on the XC bike.

For me it's when the speed gets higher AND the surface gets rougher.

Rougher, rubblier gravel at slow speeds, gravel bike still fun 👍

Rougher, rubblier gravel at high speed (like those long, fast landrover descents in the Highlands which are liberally covered in loose rocks) gravel bike still fun, but rim and tyre damage less so 🙄

My own fault for building a gravel bike that can only take 40mm tyres I guess.

I'm a big fan of my fully rigid 29er MTB over my 'cross bike. Just works better across the range of trails from my front door in Sheffield. Perhaps if I had a gravel bike with 50+ width tyres it would be different but then you're going to lose fast tyre speed on the road and it will still be worse off road.

My fully rigid mtb built light and with a racy lowish front- Alu frame, carbon fork, 1x12 (ok boat anchor cassette), carbon bars, hope pro 2 on stans crest, schwalbe Racing Ralph's.... It's my most used and arguably most versatile bike.

If I were to have one - fully rigid mtb or gravel - it would be the MTB for sure. But I'm lucky to have both.

I would go gravel. You can do anything you like on a gravel bike although maybe huge junps could be terminal. It is all a matter of neck and muscle. But if you end up doing a lot of rooty stuff or brick sized stones those suspension forks on the MTb would be worth the money.

How about a MTB  and a set of carbon rigid forks. Wheel out, caliper undone and it just a quicker fork drop out to swap. Thus you can have a flat bard GB or a MTB.

Go HT and forget about whether you're 0.2mph quicker on the road 🙂

Echo most of the above and ultimately it depends on how much one can tolerate being thrown around if riding any rigid bike off road.

I've had most types of bikes and also ride Cannock a lot. The old blue, especially when tied into some over to top bits and the longer old blue is great on a light hard tail. For me, my gravel bike (Sonder Camino with 45C tyres) is good for 80% ish but, there are a few bumpy bits where I get annoyed.

Overall, for Cannock and similar riding where it is all off road but a bit more than gravel, I'd have a hardtail 100%

I had an On One Whippet (new one), rigid with carbon forks and built up to under 10Kg. It flew over the blue and managed ftd well but, it was still a little bit more challenging than the HT - not necessarily less enjoyable though - apart from bits where it was a bit rubbish, which brought the whole experience of said ride down quite a bit.

What made my choice was to get the rigid mtb to the bike I wanted to ride, made it very close to my main HT, so I sold it and built the Camino instead. That does 99% of what the Whippet did but, is great on road.

To summarise, I'd say if there is a larger percentage of road riding involved, or 'proper' gravel riding involved - and you don't want to be too extreme, gravel bike all day long.

For everything else, HT until it gets rowdy or shiny black stuff starts to creep into rides and speed / distance become the main targets.

I think I’d always buy the hardtail.

Same here, gravel bikes are either boring on a smoother surface or roads which to be fair; is always the case regardless of the bike you're riding,  or out of their depth on anything remotely tech (aka interesting and fun) So you're reduced to linking bits of canal towpath, ex-railways or bridleways together

And this is the issue with gravel - it's limiting. If you're a roadie, I'd imagine that those sorts of surfaces are interesting, challenging and different, if you come from an MTB background, then they're the bits you use to get to the interesting stuff. Setting off on a ride to purposely stick to those sorts of byways just seems like such a wasted opportunity.

Whereas I don't find any riding boring (okay, maybe a low geared SS MTB on the road!).  Currently only have a road bike and enjoying every ride, even the ride just now in the pissing rain.  But then I enjoy riding a brakeless fixed gear off road so may have a different perspective of fun.

If you live next to the Chase and will ride there mostly get an MTB for definite. That gives you the option to explore more.

If you're thinking you'll ride more of the lanes in the Staffordshire country side get a gravel bike.

My usual weapon of choice is my Stooge. I also live on the edge of Cannock Chase (Stafford side) and that bike has taken me on many, many rides in the area including stuff like the Giant Challenge which is mixed off/on road. BASed on that I'd get a nice hardtail or rigid MTB.

OP, if you already own a Full Susser, are used to riding road bikes and are looking for something that can do road and trail and everything in-between then a gravel bike is a good option. A decent, modern HT plus a reasonably skilled/experienced rider will be able to handle a lot of what the FullSusser can do but A decent modern gravel bike can do a lot of what a modern hardtail can do, just minus the suspension forks, hence the cries of "its a late 80's mountain bike" although I think a lot of people are perhaps viewing those bikes through rose-tinted spectacles (or possibly varifocals as they forget things like modern geometry, 29in wheels, disc brakes, decent gears, Tubeless tyres etc etc.

Would I ride a gravel bike around a trailer centre? Hmm... well I wouldn't mind trying something like Blue Scar at Afan (now thats got me thinking...)  but Pennydd, the Wall, Skyline etc? No way. I'd happily ride anything there on a Hardtail but Id want to be on a full susser as I am both old and a wimp.

As for exact location the weird, blurry, ill-defined boundary that separates a modern Hardtail from a Modern Gravel bike, who knows? TBH, just try a gravel bike, see if you like it.

Spa Cycles Rove in steel or Ti?

New Singular Swift MK5?

Would I ride a gravel bike around a trailer centre? Hmm… well I wouldn’t mind trying something like Blue Scar at Afan (now thats got me thinking…) but Pennydd, the Wall, Skyline etc? No way.

It depends on what you consider fun.

I've taken a gravel bike around QECP red and rattled around Glentress Blues and Spooky Woods on one with slick tyres, mudguards and a rack - but I was concerned for my rims...

It depends on what you consider fun.

I’ve taken a gravel bike around QECP red and rattled around Glentress Blues and Spooky Woods on one with slick tyres, mudguards and a rack – but I was concerned for my rims…

I just don't see how that is or could be 'fun'.... it must be sodding horrific.

I just don’t see how that is or could be ‘fun’

Some of the satisfaction comes from what you don't know - and some from being ridiculous 😎😂

And some by keeping up with 'faster' bikes

I’ve got an old voodoo hybrid so I took that round the old blue route and it was terrifying in places, proper bone shaking no grip on the loose stones, didn’t really enjoy it.

That's your answer really isn't it. If the sort of stuff you're going to mostly ride on a gravel bike is like that, then you're probably better off with a hardtail. You can, of course, stick 650b wheels in with mountain bike size tyres, but then why are you riding a gravel bike in the first place unless you're also putting in a fair few road/hardcore surfaced miles in as well.

'Better' is a subjective judgement anyway. Is 'better', faster? More fun? More comfortable? More stupid? If you're someone who likes the thing of riding inappropriate bikes for the conditions then gravel bikes on mountain bike terrain are ideal. If you just want to ride with an appropriate bike for the conditions then a hardtail arguably makes more sense.

If you want a bike you can also ride on the road and rough back lanes in particular - and more so with a change of tyres - then gravel bikes make more sense. Unless you want to stick slicks on your mountain bike and do the whole sail in the wind thing.

In the end it probably comes down to the balance of your riding between off-road and on-road. And in turn, what bike you ride will probably affect that too. Can you not just have both in a cake and eat it sort of way?

but I was concerned for my rims…

How were your wrists? Taking a rigid mtb down rooty brake bumped trails is bad enough!

Define better?

I don't think there's a lot in it TBH.

The flipside of a boring mountain bike trail is its terrifying on a gravel bike, fun is the wrong word.

e.g. the last big gravel ride I did was the western portion of the ridgeway ~100km, the group was split between gravel bikes, CX bikes and two Scott Geniuses (an old 26" one and a brand new one). The range in speed was no more than the range in fitness so fit people on MTB's had no problem being up front and the unfit on gravel bikes got dropped.

It definitely made some rough sections a challenge to clean.

It also made some seemingly innocuous descents a bit dicey, drainage bars on straight sections that you'd pump and launch off on the MTB become a nightmarish feature that you convince yourself will collapse your wheel and fork if you mistime the next bunnyhop with your knackered 100km legs as you hurtle over them at 30mph.

I still enjoy it, but I think it's mostly the group riding rather than the bike. On my own I tend to either take the MTB or Road bike and ride somewhere suitable. They work well as a tool for group rides as they seem to encourage less faffing, longer rides and less "technical faff" too, the aim is to ride a long-ish distance, so if someone isn't feeling upto a feature they tend to do a CX dismount and run it rather than everyone slow down.

i built up a plus tyres rigid MTB (built off a HC HT frame) its also singlespeed - and it rips. Basically like a big BMX. Its probably my favourite bike for the local easy xc trails. just so much fun. i had the same bike built with gears and front suspension and i basically never rode it. the plus tyres actually work well for rigid as you get that little bit of extra cushion but you cant get lairy enough to feel the tyre squirm. or if you can you realise you are on a rigid bike and the the squirm is the least of your worries - haha. its nice and comfy to ride on an south downs epic ride too.

i wouldnt want to ride rigid without a fatter tyre though. i see people ridign rigid on 2.0 tyres and pinging off stuff and getting rattled and bashed about. i dont see teh appeal. i`m in it for fun not physical and mental endurance.

I know it's a cliché, but there's always truth behind a cliché so put away the flaming torches, but gravel biking is basically what we used to call mountain biking in the 90s. So, I'd rather have what we/I had on the 90s, namely a light, skinny-tubed, rigid-forked, flat barred with barends, hardtail, but with modern accoutrements like disc brakes, fatter tubeless tyres, 1x drivetrain etc.

So, I’d rather have what we/I had on the 90's

Without wanting to kick over the wasp's nest, those bikes were shit*, and no amount of modern tech is going to change that frankly.  I also started in the 1990 and I was always just a bit disappointed to discover than those bikes were really only good enough for bridleways and the very gentlest of "tech" Now I've a bike that I can actually ride anywhere, and I don't have to spend money and the following weekend repairing it. I reckon I've done my time on bridleways, and I'm owed some fun.

*nostalgia's a powerful thing, just becasue you rode in Wales that day when it was sunny and you needed a belt for your 30" jeans, doesn't mean that bike was any good, it was just that you were 22

Im spoilt for choice:

Adventure Ebike, on tough road tyres - used for commute, gravel paths etc, heavy, boring, not particularly fast

Gravel bike, 40mm fork and dropper, Fast everywhere, until you start hitting stuff that can break wheels. Will ride it if any distance is required, any sections of road, fast loops on blue trails, but its knackering as you do still have to be active over rough stuff. Wouldn't tackle anything super steep on loose like i do below, the tyres won't give me the grip i need to keep it under control.

130mm hardtail, 2 sets of wheels and tyres, xc and trail/enduro - still predominately used at trail centres, wouldn't really consider riding it to and from anywhere, except if I'm riding with my nipper. Will take it up and down anything. A long ride 20 miles plus is just not that much fun on flat bars.

135/160mm full sus, will ride anywhere as above, in fact i alternate, the exception being if i want to do something specific, like jumping practice on the full sus, or i want the "safest" bike

if i had to only have one bike, it would be the 40mm gravel bike, i can ride it over 50% of my riding, to work, epic distance and lighter trails. i had a flat bar gravel bike before this, but this is still better in my opinion. If i wasn't interested in any massive rides or covering much road, id have the hardtail

those bikes were really only good enough for bridleways and the very gentlest of “tech”

Indeed, or 'gravel riding' as it's now known.

I reckon I’ve done my time on bridleways, and I’m owed some fun.

Fair enough, you head off into the hills on your modern MTB and have a blast, all power to your elbow. I'll do the same, when that's what I fancy doing. Sometimes though, I quite like a bit of a bimble around bridleways, towpaths and farm/forest tracks and, for me, a 'modernised but old school' MTB would be the thing to do it on

For me, just a modern MTB would be the thing I use. Just built this for just those sorts of days

Get a Whippet. Mine runs anything from 38 c to 2.8 .
All the bike you could need.

i wouldnt ride that whippet on my local trails. i mean you could, and people probably do, but you`d get rattled to death above walking pace. needs a proper MTB tyre i recon. comfort is king.

I think that if you liked road biking, a gravel bike will be just the ticket for you.

Keep your MTB for the MTBing and the gravel bike for the fire roads, back lanes, towpaths and a bit of singletrack.

Tricky one. I've got two road bikes, full FS, old rigid MTB (geared up for the commute) and a CX bike I recently got.

CX/gravel are very capable, but you soon realise it's not a MTB when the going get's tough ! You won't be smashing through stuff the same.

If it's one bike, then I'd go for a fast XC MTB

I had a gravel bike with a set of 650b wheels with 47mm WTB Byways and a set of 700c wheels with 40mm MSC Gravel, a Vitus CRS2, what it was best at was smooth bridleways and fire roads, it was mildly entreating on non rooty single track and it was OK on the road, it was very comfortable over long distances / durations and looked nice. It was OK on the road, but a bit too beard & sandals relaxed for me to ever replace a proper road bike. What it was best at was when I fitted 32mm CX tyres to it and used it as a 2nd bike for a season of CX racing.

I swapped it for a Scott Scale 910 the only weighs a bit, like less than a kilo more at 10.3kg , is miles faster off road, and not much slower on it. Equally as comfortable as the gravel bike, even with a dropper as opposed to the svelte carbon post on the gravel bike.

We're doing 80 miles of the Pennine Bridleway in a couple of weeks over two days, most of us opting for our full suspension MTB's with lightweight tyres (one has a hard tail). We've all got road bikes, and cross/gravel bikes, but two days of crashing about on rocks = MTB.

those bikes were really only good enough for bridleways and the very gentlest of “tech”

My jaunts around Helvellyn, High Street, Borrowdale Bash, Skiddaw and more in the late '80s and '90s begs to differ. Yes we were slower, yes my arms and hands were battered, but it were right fun....

I do think modern geometry, disc brakes and tyres can massively alter what a rigid bike rides like - the fundamental problem of '80s and '90s bikes was roadie inspired geometry, crap brakes and crap tyres.

@prawny what do you love about road? If its about long rides, loads of miles and covering ground at speed then a gravel bike is what your after to take that style of riding onto forestry tracks and easy singletrack. If your road riding is more the fast group style riding smash up every hill and sprint to every speed limit sign then a XC HT mtb to thrash around the singletrack might be more your thing?

For me its not just terrain that makes me choose HT over Gravel bike, its the speed. Once I'm cruising in the low 20s Km/h the additional wind resistance riding upright on flat bars is just a drag.

What size tyres and pressures were you running on your Voodoo Hyrbrid? The rougher and looser the gravel the bigger  tyres and lower pressures you want to run. There are some tracks near me that are boneshaking even on 2.2" tyres at 20psi, but also gravel that's so smooth and compacted I've ridden it on 28mm slicks at 60psi.

Gravel bikes are road bikes with exploration options.  MTBs are offroad bikes.

Yes, a race hardtail on semi-slicks can be as fast as a gravel bike on road, but only for a very limited time/distance.  You’ll quickly tire.

As others have said, its about what you want.  Id rather slog 50km on road to do 30km of fun offroad on a hardtail, than have an easier 50km using a gravel bike, but lose the fun on the offroad.

I used to do quite a lot of endurance riding, ridgeway, SDW, Spain Coast to Coast Off-Road etc, countless long distance routes throug France....I've completed this on all sorts of bikes. My current main bike is a Gravel Bike, configured pretty light for a ti gravel bike.

Lightweight hardtail would be my preferred bike for the type of riding the OP mentions. I would have two different wheels sets though. One with "fast summer tyres" and one with proper grippy tyres.

My hardtail was the fastest bike for the long XC routes I used to do. Not only the fastest, but the most fun and the comfiest. Even 45mm tyres on a gravel bike do not compensate when things get rocky and rooty.

What I have noticed is that the lightweight hardtails are not really mainstream anymore. They're also incredibly expensive! NickC's does look nice. I used to have a Trek ProCaliber, great bike - but I don't recall paying anywhere near the current price is. I also managed to get hold of a set of second hand RS SID SL forks. Really light and perfect for XC terrain.

Taking my gravel bike off road, so trail centre off-road, I notice the steep angles of the bike, the difficulty in getting my backside over the rear tyre on descents, having to really focus on getting my weight back to stop the OTB on anything steep downhill. Steep technical rocky uphills are a challenge, pick a line and hope you don't get pinged off it. While its fun, its not the same as being on a fast mountain bike, yes a 100/120 mm fork and a 29er 2.3 tyre still get pinged, but nowhere near the same level as a 45mm tyre with no suspension. While a dropper on a gravel bike would be amazing, I'm still not convinced. Rooty rocky downhill, I'd be worried about the front washing out if all the weight is at the back. Maybe its just the angles on mine, but it doesn't instill confidence on anything that I would consider a genuine mountain bike terrain.

But in my mind its kind of like....I get my fun out of going fast downhill. I don't really get any fun from a climb. So I'm more than happy going up a climb slower on my mountain bike just for the reward of a fun downhill segment.

So if I was in the market for a new bike, I'd be chatting to NickC above about his frame. Maybe get some lightweight carbon wheels and some standard wheels.

the fundamental problem of ’80s and ’90s bikes was roadie inspired geometry, crap brakes and crap tyres.

Yeah, I agree, and modern gravel bikes have better geometry than 90s MTBs, many/most can take bigger tyres than 90s MTBs could, and it's pretty much impossible to buy rubbish brakes any more. I don't think having drops adds anything though.

Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.

Unless maximum speed on road sections is the priority I'd go xc race type bike.  I have a very nice fast light gravel bike which is great for the poor road surfaces we have where I live and it's a personal opinion but that's about it.  With hindsight a xc race bike is the way I would go now for what I perceived gravel riding to be, but I come from a mountain bike background, not road.

Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.

Mrs_oab bought the white coloured Giant CX bike. Quickly discovered that small hands and drop bars do not match and so we flat-barred it. A really nice, fast on road, 3x9 hybrid.
In front is her new Marin DSX which she finds it almost as fast, much more comfy on potholed roads and gravel tracks, she even took it on mild singletrack yesterday. The newer geometry of the Marin, even though it is still relatively conservative, really helps give stability and no toe overlap.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52670414000_8adf345726_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52670414000_8adf345726_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2ofiD5d ]Marin DSX for Jo[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr

Now with bar ends and perfect for road - track - gentle single track - track 60km ride last week to get ice cream...

In front is her new Marin DSX

Ooh, a Marin would take me full circle back to that 90s MTB I had

I like:

https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/2023-dsx-2

Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.

The really great thing now (as opposed to the 1990's) is that 1. those bikes exist, and 2. they're really good.

but it were right fun….

Oh you're spot on it was massive fun, I had a blast. But every time I get a newer bike I'm amazed at how much more capable they are.

TBH OP if your Hybrid was "terrifying" you'll have to put some pretty chonky tyres on a Gravel bike to make it much of an improved experience, at which point why not just have a HT MTB?

I've split the difference with a basic Rigid 29er as I have a bouncy 29er as well as a Gravel bike.
I prefer to keep the gravel bike on faster rolling 700x40ish tyres so it can munch the miles on and off-road but isn't ever going to be a trails monster and the bouncy bike is fun on trails/drops/jumps but not super efficient.

A good compromise (IMO) would be a sensibly light build, 29er HT with a 100~120mm fork that can cover some ground off-road and put up with the odd rock/root/jump, be fun to ride on singletrack but isnt's a boat anchor and doesn't sap all your energy bouncing suspension and draggy tyres in between...

the fundamental problem of ’80s and ’90s bikes was roadie inspired geometry, crap brakes and crap tyres.

I kind of disagree on the brakes bit, because by the time I want/need better brakes, I probably want to be on my MTB anyway! For the sort of stuff I enjoy on the gravel bike, either the speeds or gradients or surface aren't really high/steep/chundery enough that I care about the brakes, 1 finger braking on mini-Vs still serves me fine. I almost think 'do I need disc brakes' is as good a point at which an HT becomes better than a gravel bike in fact!

As usual with these threads though, lots of examples above of MTBers trying to make gravel bikes MTBs then dismissing them as not being very good for MTBing, or assuming that anything that isn't gnarly singletrack is 'boring' which is a very MBUK era sort of viewpoint 😂

nickcFull Member
Basically what I want is a flat-barred, bar-ended, gravel bike.
The really great thing now (as opposed to the 1990’s) is that 1. those bikes exist, and 2. they’re really good

My father just bought one actually. At 85 he has finally given up MTBing (which he started doing in 1988). He still prefers to be away from traffic so using canal paths and cycle tracks etc

He just got a Trek dual sport 3

1x, hydros, carbon fork, flat bar (he’s added bar ends) and he has swapped the stock tyres for a WTB byway tubeless set up.

What you want there is a rigid MTB aka adventure bike.

+1. My personal compromise as well. With the right size, bars, stem, tyres it is comfortable most places. Will be slower on tarmac than a gravel bike but a better position than a average HT pure mtb, slower on tough mtbing but most ROW / natural stuff anything will be ridable with a good dropper. ITs something I would like to build a more modern version of as mine is a compromise from old bits.

but gravel biking is basically what we used to call mountain biking in the 90s

It might be what you used to call it, but not me.  Our riding in the 90s was either whipping around the forest on singletrack as fast as we could, whilst searching out the steepest lines, or it was epic rides on big rocky mountains in Wales.  We just descended far far slower than we would now.  You could do those rides on gravel bikes now but you need decent rubber.  We would use 2.0s but back then I was 72kg, and even then I had 45psi in the tyres and pinch punctured a lot.

As for 90s bikes being shit - I broadly agree with what's being said. They were too short, my weight was always over the front wheel too much which was great for climbing but terrible on descents.  Cornering was purely an exercise in stopping the front wheel washing out - that was the entire skill.  The front would wash out first and dump you on your face.  These days, you just lean your bike over and stay centred, t weight is balanced nicely, and you drift.

The concept of a 90s bike is fine, but the execution of a modern adventure bike is better.  The geometry is better sorted, the wheels are bigger, the brakes work, the tyres are leagues ahead.  I built my Salsa to be a 90s bike but better, and it is.

The thing that amuses me about these debates is that people are absolutely sure that MTB geometry evolved and improved up until a certain point in the 90s then stopped getting better.  As if there was some apocalypse in which the library of knowledge was burned and we entered a dark age after which no new development was possible.  This is clearly absurd.  You thought your KHS Montana Pro was awesome then because it was, for the time., but you didn't know any better. Things have moved on though.

Also back then a Nissan Bluebird was a perfectly good family car.  But I absolutely would rather have a 2023 Mondeo.

I do all my 'gravel' riding on a rigid 29er. I have 2.

best: Scott Scale, 9kg, full carbon and 1x11 Di2

beater/commuter: On One Bootzipper, steel but with Exotic carbon forks, 1x11 mechanical

They'll do everything a gravel bike can do but descend better, and more fun (to me).

The Bootzipper recently did the Torino-Nice Rally route, fully loaded.

It might be what you used to call it, but not me.  Our riding in the 90s was either whipping around the forest on singletrack as fast as we could, whilst searching out the steepest lines, or it was epic rides on big rocky mountains in Wales.

I was visiting my mate in Bristol sometime in the mid-90s, and he introduced me to a friend, 'This is Jon, he rides mountain bikes. Jon, this is <name> he also rides MTBs.' <name> looked at me with disdain and said, 'I'm an extreme MTBer' and walked away.

Was it you? I've waited for decades to get the autograph.

😀

I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB. I know there’re arguments about suspension wear, but really? Is that it? 100/120mm forks are now pretty light, can be locked out and allow you to ride more stuff, at higher speeds, with smaller tyres at lower pressures. All for a few hundred grams and a few hundred pounds.

This and 2.4tyres are what makes a MTB MUCH more capable and fun off road than a gravel bike. And also what makes a MTB less fun on gravel. It’s too easy.

I have two bikes: a rigid On-One Whippet, and a Pinnacle Arkose gravel. It’s a bit of a daft combination as I kind of have a road-y mtb and an off road-y road bike. They both suit the kind of riding I like, but the crossover of their capabilities is huge.

I’ve been thinking of selling them and getting a single bike (and maybe a rat for trips to the shops etc). After much thought I reckon I’d want:

straight bars. I occasionally love the drops, but not often enough to make it worthwhile. Also, the drop bars I use have been getting flatter and wider - I think evolution would eventually turn them into straights anyway

700 tyres, with clearance for 45 with mudguards, maybe 50 without

1x gearing. I was hesitant about this, but having used it I like it

The ability to fit guards, racks, etc. They can be added without braze-ons of course, but not so well and you get limited choice

rigid. No dropper. I understand why others need these, but I don’t

Disc brakes definitely

Maybe a second set of wheels so I could quickly switch tyres from smooth to gnarly

Having used SRAM and Shimano I’d go Shimano if all else was equal

I think this would give me maximum fun and versatility in a single bike. If anyone can recommend a bike like this please do

I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB.

Have you owned one before Daffy?

Hmmm, that Marin linked earlier might just be what I need. Does it come in any colours other than diarrhoea?

I really don’t understand why anyone wants a rigid MTB. I know there’re arguments about suspension wear, but really? Is that it? 100/120mm forks are now pretty light, can be locked out and allow you to ride more stuff, at higher speeds, with smaller tyres at lower pressures. All for a few hundred grams and a few hundred pounds.

This and 2.4tyres are what makes a MTB MUCH more capable and fun off road than a gravel bike. And also what makes a MTB less fun on gravel. It’s too easy.

It's pretty simple, rigid forks are significantly cheaper to own than even a basic 100mm fork let alone a posh light one which you then go and lock out.

And yeah absolutely stick a wider front tyre on and you get a cushier ride with more grip, applies to any MTB.

As you noted there's no suspension to knacker or need servicing, basically it's keeping a bike mechanically simple to fit in with it's intended use, maintenance and budget. As a counter point the fork on my bouncy bike probably cost double the entire value of my rigid 29er...

It's more capable and comfortable than the Gravel bike, just not as quick over distances, it would be a bit more capable with a suspension fork, but then I'd have another bit of technology to pay for and maintain...