[Closed] Armstrong v Kimmage

aP, only if you can find first gear with your brain.

Hes decidedly average compared to the person hes attacking. **** me with so many people out to get Lance you'd think they'd have caught him by now wouldnt you?

Funny that. There seems to be more hairdressers around and in the Tours than there is on the average Essex High st. Ap, if your going to attack me, provoke discussion on a point, dont attack the poster ok?

No Giro, no Vuelta, no roubaix etc etc, etc. Targetting one race surely doesn't mean world dominance in anyones book. I am not saying seven tours is not phenominal. It just seems to me a reflection of the type of hyperbole, that goes with the legend that is Lance.

Anyone got a link for Kimmage admiting to drug use?

See his book, Rough Ride. He admits to charging in there. The whole "Paul Kimmage only writes about doping in cycling" comes from there. In fairness to the guy, he made his journalistic career writing about other sports before becoming a cycling writer. He stills does write about other sports.

Oh, and he was pretty handy, too. Irish road race champion aged 19, as I recall (mind you, Roche and Earley were already pros at that point).

I've also read the Jeremy Whittle book, Bad Blood. It would probably be good if it was such a poorly written, thumb-sucking tantrum.

So who are the true legends? I'm sure we all agree on Merckx!

hora - you were the one calling Kimmage average. I didn't attack you anyway, might have dented your car door though. 😛

ourmaninthenorth- its not worth a read then? I was going to pop out and buy at lunchtime. Whilst Im there any recommendations?

the Robert Millar book is pretty good, also The Flying Scotsman, Breaking the Chain is fairly eye opening 😯

Get Matt Rendell's Death of Marco Pantani

wrt to bad blood - when you get over the the fact that hes a bit upset about being spurned by lance i think it shows an interesting side to sports reporting thats rarely seen. ie what gets published and more importantly - what doesnt and why it doesnt. i think most journalist know a shed load more than they can report and this highlights that. piece this book togetger with rough ride and the press interviews that walsh and kimmage have done and you have an interesting take on lance and cyling/doping.

"ourmaninthenorth - Member

Anyone got a link for Kimmage admiting to drug use?

See his book, Rough Ride. He admits to charging in there"

My response as well. Quite a good book,it shows you how tough you need to be to a "pro". Would you stick caffeine slugs up yer poo pipe while racing, or shoot up while still on the bike racing. Not a chance. The mental fatigue is the worst to deal with.

Cheers for the recommendations, will look those up in a mo

I've read Rough Ride but only remember him mentioning injecting vitamins. I'll have a look.

Just finished reading Rough Ride and it gives a good insight to what went on "back in the day" plus some updates in the latest versions. Kimmage admits to being an "average" pro and is a very good journalist (on not just cycling) with regular features in the Sunday Times on top sportsmen. His vindictive reputation comes as being one of the first to break the code of silence about the use of doping in the peloton and his bitterness that the professional sport he worked so hard to become part of then turned out to be one where cheats abounded.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the more advanced testing that is now being developed is ever aplied to the stored samples - if the authorities ever have the nerve to do so - and if reputations are then broken. Armstrong - clean, or just has had access to better science than the testers?

Mudshark - he admitted to taking Amphetamines on a few occasions for (I think) post TdF criteriums.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the more advanced testing that is now being developed is ever aplied to the stored samples

Is that not what happened here?

Here Kimmage says Lance tested positive for EPO:
[url= http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=54741&catid=2 ]http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=54741&catid=2[/url]

Sixam the lab offered to test lance's famous 99 tour samples last year, he refused I also notice he has parted with Catlin , so much for complete transparency.

Mudshark - Yes but - Velonews article - "The tests on 1999 urine samples were done last year to help scientists improve their detection methods, the paper (Equipe)said.

L’Equipe said it matched urine samples from that Tour with medical statements signed by doctors, claiming that there were “characteristic, undeniable and consequent" signs of EPO in Armstrong's urine tests.

A spokesman for the World Anti-Doping Agency told VeloNews Tuesday that the agency does "not have enough information at the moment," adding that "it would be premature for us to comment on the specifics of this case."

Not sure if any more information led to any outcomes on this.

Ed2001 - I agree!!

The EPO use relates to stored samples...which they were not permitted to test, LA denied them permission, but again it's down to clear rulings I understand he doesn't trust the french labs or their staff and has had no control over the storage of the samples....would anybody on here risk their entire career/reputation on a bunch of guys of dubious morality (leaked results to journo's prior to official notification) who hate him for dominating their event?

Kimmage's book is ok but too outdated now...charged up at crits where team managers basically expected them to, and knew there was no testing

Don't read the Pantani tome unless you are prepared to lose half your childhood heroes...it's depressing as hell!

Kimmage, what a nice piece of work. Imagine saying Stephen Hawkings is a window-licker to the progress of science..

If Hawking (I note you have so much respect for him you can't even get his name right) had suppressed the views of people who disagreed with him then that might be a fair comment...

Though I'm not even sure why I bother responding to hora when he descends to that level of idiocy.

The problem with the drug testing is that it's far from transparent itself, there have been so many cases of info leaked to the press that it can hardly be considered a 100% reliable source. There's been cases of 'witch-hunts' by the press ever since the Tour started, LA is just the latest victim of it. Notice how a confirmed drug cheat like Virenque is still a household name and hero in France vs someone like LA who has never proven to have doped. The media can make or break careers (that goes for any sport or indeed pretty much any facet of life) and you'd be a fool to trust any journalist who has made it clear that he is gunning for you (regardless of the [b]facts[/b]).

Re books: Floyd Landis' book 'Positively False' is a good read (although obviously biased towards his case it's still thought-provoking) and 'Lance Armstrong - Tour de Force' by Daniel Coyle is well worth a read too, it's not all about LA by any means and it touches on the subject of doping too.

aracer I'm referring to the comment made 'Armstrong is a cancer on the sport'

wrt to bad blood - when you get over the the fact that hes a bit upset about being spurned by lance i think it shows an interesting side to sports reporting thats rarely seen. ie what gets published and more importantly - what doesnt and why it doesnt.

I think you make a good point. It has certainly gave an overall impression to that effect, even if his tone and repetition did grate.

Funnily enough, when I think how much I suffer on a Saturday morning chaingang, and how I can't hold on to the wheeles of even the Cat 3 riders, I realise how, for a pro rider, making the decision to dope [i]just to hang on[/i] can seem like the only viable option.

So who are the true legends? I'm sure we all agree on Merckx!

For me, Classics men like Kelly and Godefroot. Freddy Maertens, both on the bike and in his subsequent - impoverished - life. Paul Sherwen for being a super-domestique and finishing the stage out of Epinal in the 1984 Tour, riding on his own, badly injured, and finishing outisde the cut-off (and being reinstated after the journalists demanded the organisers respect such bravery). Reg Harris (an extraordinary sprinter, and the man who makes me proudest to be in Manchester Wheelers).

Right now, though, it's Mark Cavendish. I so want him to become the great Classics rider he can be. For me, the grand tours are very nice, but the real races of truth are the staggeringly tough, northern European Classics - Roubaix, Flanders, Liege, Amstel. Anyone who wins one of them is a true [i]Flahute[/i] in my eyes.

[b]hora[/b] - try reading Franco Balmamion: the Eagle of the Canavese by Herbie Sykes. I've read extracts and am assured the rest is glorious.

[i]but the real races of truth are the staggeringly tough, northern European Classics - Roubaix, Flanders, Liege, Amstel. Anyone who wins one of them is a true Flahute in my eyes[/i]

Paris-Roubaix is the best race ever, it's fantastic to watch.
In fact back (sort of) on-topic, Armstrong came within a tyre width of winning Amstel Gold as well and he's been 2nd at Liege on at least one occasion. Proof that he's more than just a Tour rider.

Proof that he's more than just a Tour rider.

He's rumoured to be going for [i]both[/i] hour records this year too.

10/10 one of the best reads on STW for ages.

Hora - Try Tim Moore's 'French Revolutions'. Funny and Informative - you can't really go wrong.

I'm referring to the comment made 'Armstrong is a cancer on the sport'

Hora ... you can't really go wrong.

aracer

Its a crass and ill-meaning comment to me.

true legends...bernard hinualt and laurent fignon. could be counted on to liven up any race, and won with style. i have no idea whether they were dopers.

I find the whole "Armstrong suppressing negative reporting" claim to be so far fetched. There must be more negative press surrounding him than any other rider/athlete, as to make that claim ridiculous. Ballester, Walsh, Kimmage to name three off the top of my head, who've more or less made a career out of "Lance Knocking." If I were a 7 times TdF winner, and they were constantly saying negative things about me, I don't think I'd be in too much of a rush to give them an interview either.

For people that like Armstrong then his involvement in cycling has been brilliant, for those that like cycling Armstrong's involvement is not necessarily positive.

Kimmage had a career (actually 2 - one as a professional cyclist the other as a professional and very well regarded sports journalist) long before Armstrong turned up, and his constant poking at the Texan steer hasn't exactly made him a lot of friends.

Kimmage had a career (actually 2 - one as a professional cyclist the other as a professional and very well regarded sports journalist) long before Armstrong turned up, and his constant poking at the Texan steer hasn't exactly made him a lot of friends.

What's the betting it's made him a lot of money though...

Anyone interested in this subject should read 'from Lance to Landis'.
Tells it like it is, and published round the world. The fact that Lance didn't sue the author says rather a lot!

Taking every advantage can be looked on as behaving professionally in some quarters. That's how the top guys seem to see it.

I would love to see an end to doping, but I steered my son away from a bikeracing future because of this very subject.

Paris-Roubaix is the best race ever, it's fantastic to watch.

Haven't seen it live. But I will go some time. I'll do the sportive next year.

Saw Amstel last year (and the Gent Six together with a Superprestige Cross in Belgium). I shall be riding the Flanders sportive this year (140km, mind) and watching the race on one of the climbs the next day.

I love that hardman attitude to racing out there. And the naitonal obsession of Belgium with all things cycle racing.