[Closed] Are we going to see a 3" tyre craze (that requires new frame, fork and wheels)?

That's a tad harsh, especially as I don't have one!

[img] [/img]

😉

of course .. 'tis the season after all.

As far as I can tell the only guy who's ridden a 650b+ on a proper bike and not some rigid beard machine is Nasher.

The old argument that 2.7" tyres are too heavy etc is forgetting that tyre technology has improved a little these days, plus we have tubeless, lighter wheels, wider rims, better suspension.

Some mnufacturers are already saying this is the future and 650b is gone on the upper end within two to three years.

Tyres haven't really gotten any lighter. A 2.8 dual ply is still going to weight in the region of 1500-1600 grams. Maybe 1400 in 1.5 ply.

http://enduro-mtb.com/en/di-a-2015-breakout-sessions-650b-wheels-are-they-the-future/

There is a lot of controversy with the topic of new standards, namely wheel sizes. Do you anticipate any difficulties with the 650b+ concept gaining traction?

MS: With 29” firmly established and 26” being the original standard 27.5” is being easily accepted. Plus size 27.5” tires can fit existing 29” bikes (if the tire is not too fat) and 26” fatbikes (if riders are looking for less bounce). 27.5” fits more people than 29” and the bigger tires roll faster.

LOL, what? So 27.5 tyres fit people better, so lets make them larger so they don't.

Pure marketing BS and it will be forced on us like 650b was.

The extra air volume of the so called plus size tires is very confidence inspiring. 29+ wheels make the bike too long in my estimation. Too much gyroscopic energy stored in those big wheel

More bad physics, if your 3 inch tyre is heavier then it's going to be more cumbersome than the 29er. More BS.

These mid-fat wheels take away much of the rotating weight and rolling resistance of a full fat tire and rim, yet offer significantly more air volume than a conventional set-up. Similar to how 27.5? rims became the standard after 29? proved to be too extreme for many riders. The industry tends to do this (settling between two extremes – remember the Monster T fork?) so we really shouldn’t be surprised.

So what we will be getting is not something that covers snow as well as 26/4 inch fatbike and something that is heavier and arguably no better than a standard trail tyre. Greeeat - more exploiting niches with crap marketing claims to make a bit more cash.

Who says you need 2 ply on a trail/AM bike?

What if 650b+ with 28mm inner width rims and single ply 2.7" have a lot more grip than 2.3 1.5 plys and 650b wheels?

I don't know but I suspect that is the case.

They aren't talking about 27mm inner rim widths but 40mm inner rim widths and 3 inch tyres.

What if 650b+ with 28mm inner width rims and single ply 2.7" have a lot more grip than 2.3 1.5 plys and 650b wheels?

There's such things as to much grip, when it either becomes a hindrance due to rolling resistance or weight.

Who says you need 2 ply on a trail/AM bike?

Anyone who races or rides in places that are rocky.

Can someone explain to me the point of this bike for example?

[img] [/img]

Look at that tread patten? How is that going to give you anymore grip than a tyre with a better tread pattern at a lower weight, that exhibits less undamped tyre deflection and roll. What the hell is the point? It's still not going to be a proper all terrain bike like a full fat fatbike.

[img] [/img]I just wish they'd hurry up and make/import the bloody thing!

On the side: the tread is a fairly narrow 58mm wide. . So the casing extends well beyond the protective shield of the tread rubber.

http://twentynineinches.com/2014/08/22/wtb-trailblazer-27-5-x-2-8-tires-exclusive-b-review-intro/

LOL

So we have a tyre that's been made taller to make it a bit more like a 29er, however it's squirmier - more prone to being gashed open on rocks, heavier.....oh and the tread pattern actually isn't actually wider than many standard tyres. To top that off, we'll replace some nice damped suspension travel with undamped tyre volume...cuz the casings bigger and therefore more comfortable.

Genius.

Some mnufacturers are already saying this is the future and 650b is gone on the upper end within two to three years.

oh, so I should hold off from dropping three grand on a carbon 140mm 650b-er then?

Can someone explain to me the point of this bike for example?

I've used a 29er spearfish for bikepacking. This just takes it a bit further, more traction, minimise additional drag, additional comfort of softer pressure. When you start using a bike for other things, maximising ability to grip vs speed is not a constant.

To top that off, we'll replace some nice damped suspension travel with undamped tyre volume...cuz the casings bigger and therefore more comfortable.

You're assuming FS, what about on an HT?

I'd give it a whizz on the rear end of a 29er, certainly.

There is a certain market of people (of which I'm one) who don't have an FS because they CBA with the maintenance, cost, setup faff, and technology.

Matt, I can see the point of it on a hard tail and rigids. I can see the point of full on fat bikes - I think we're about to be in for a wave of marketing guff that will dwarf the 650b debacle though.

I've used a 29er spearfish for bikepacking. This just takes it a bit further, more traction, minimise additional drag, additional comfort of softer pressure.

It has a 58mm wide tread pattern though, no wider than many normal tyres. So it's about comfort, which begs the question - why use it on a full suspension bike? Not only that, why one would want an air sprung bike for adventure touring is beyond me.

There's such things as to much grip, when it either becomes a hindrance due to rolling resistance or weight.

Too much grip? Don't you just go faster?

We're talking 10mm off a 2.3" 29" diameter tyre so there will probably be an improvement in rolling resistance over a 650b 2.3.

Again, Nashers Enduro 29" in this thread was only slightly heavier than standard. That's the kind of bike people are saying are rapid.

Too much grip? Don't you just go faster?

If that was the case people would have run 2.7 high rollers. They never did.

We're talking 10mm off a 2.3" 29" diameter tyre so there will probably be an improvement in rolling resistance over a 650b 2.3.

Much like that huge gain in rolling resistance we saw by going to 650b.

Again, Nashers Enduro 29" in this thread was only slightly heavier than standard. That's the kind of bike people are saying are rapid.

I see the point of 29. I don't see the point of some bollocky half way house between 27.5 and 29 that is compromised and then spun by marketers that it's not and actually great for those who don't want a 29er.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Well brake dive, and the way your body positioning/weight distribution has a drastic effect on the performance of the suspension.
IME after riding suspension for a long time you only notice the positives but take it away and the negatives become apparent.

And you will get those exact same effects with balloon like tyres, except they are undamped.

[i]And you will get those [s]exact same [/s] scaled down effects with [s]balloon like [/s] 3" tyres, except they are undamped.[/i]

Anyway this is becoming less relevant to the thread so we'll leave it for another eh..
I was originally simply stating my experience of my first rigid bike in 20years which happens to have a incomprehensibly humongous balloon tyre on the front.

On the FS / B+ combo thing, bigger low PSI tyres do a great job of taking out the smaller high-frequency stuff that suspension may not react fast enough to deal with, or it may be that the tyre taking it out early on is an effective way to go. The concerns about a bit more unsprung mass lessen when the suspension's not being asked to do that really high-frequency stuff. If the suspension's set up well the tyres won't need to deform very far so the pogo-rebound shouldn't be an issue.
There will be a balance point for different riders + bikes - full fat full sus maybe an oddity for most but 2.8-3.0 B+ with wide carbon rims on a 140-150mm trail bike sounds like fun to me.

On the FS / B+ combo thing, bigger low PSI tyres do a great job of taking out the smaller high-frequency stuff that suspension may not react fast enough to deal with, or it may be that the tyre taking it out early on is the most effective way to go. The concerns about a bit more unsprung mass lessen when the suspension's not being asked to do that really high-frequency stuff. There will be a balance point for different riders + bikes - full fat full sus maybe an oddity for most but 2.8-3.0 B+ with wide carbon rims on a 140-150mm trail bike sounds like fun to me. If the suspension's set up well the tyres won't need to deform very far so the pogo-rebound won't be an issue.

Which one can do by running lower PSI with procore.

That won't mean a new frame, fork and wheels though. So the industry won't push it.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Anyone who races or rides in places that are rocky.

Not my finding personally... And it doesn't really get much rockier than kinlochleven, if it wasn't for the boulders you'd just sink up to your neck in the swamps. I've used heavyweight singleplies tubeless (specialized sx) for dh racing at glencoe and fort william too (and ironically the one time I used dualplies for the endurance dh, I flatted) I tend to use fairly thinwalled singleplies- butches and barons. Mind you, I'm not [i]fast[/i], midfield in most races.

Which one can do by running lower PSI with procore.

So the industry won't push it.

BTW Tom I'm not disagreeing with you or very pro-B+, just interested. I've got B+ kit here. Personally I think I'd rather have some 50mm carbon rims on my 29er with 2.5s and a procore system of sorts.. but that's on a beardy hair-shirter rigid bike.

What's the bike pictured above? It looks like a womens shopping bike.

I'll always remember removing my 2.7 Maxxis tyres from my Bullit when my guiding was done, and throwing on some prototype Specialized 2.3 DH tyres that I'd been given and hitting Whistler Bike Park. Of course I thought I'd die a horrible death, but I was surprised to find that for many trails there was actually a significant improvement. The trails came alive! I was cornering on rails!

Of course, now I'll only be happy when I have 700d rims, 140mm wide and made from Berillium. And a really long beard.

Its coming to be called 29ER+ watch this space.

As a home mechanic, and who doesn't 'do' Enduro, Procore looks like a bunch of faff. Pass.

walleater.

I'll always remember removing my 2.7 Maxxis tyres from my Bullit when my guiding was done, and throwing on some prototype Specialized 2.3 DH tyres that I'd been given and hitting Whistler Bike Park. Of course I thought I'd die a horrible death, but I was surprised to find that for many trails there was actually a significant improvement. The trails came alive! I was cornering on rails!

As others have said ride what you want and don't worry what anyone else is doing.Afterall it's got ****all to do with you. 🙂

If I had a brother he'd have chased down a young steve peat no bother
You guys really do viciously defend your fatbikes don't you. It's like the argument over 29ers but worse, militant fat bikers - you're all secretly ashamed of riding them and consequently blow up when someone takes the piss.

Not really millitant or viciously defending fat bikes just taking the piss because you think you're the bees knees because your brother once beat another child riding Down a hill & the child grew up to be world champ.

my brother rode singlespeed before SSStu so he can shut up.

His brother^^^ is my hero.
But I'm so awstruck by him i have no idea who he is anymore. 😳

mattjg - Member

As a home mechanic, and who doesn't 'do' Enduro, Procore looks like a bunch of faff.

It looks like about 1% more faff than a normal inner tube to me

inner tube?

Tom_1987 I can't take you seriously since you posted

I guess you failed school comprehension tests, I didn't as my verbal IQ is 135.

Go easy on him, he wasn't born until 1987!

power *s sound awsum.
Are they like danger *s but with a stronger arm?

Not my finding personally... And it doesn't really get much rockier than kinlochleven, if it wasn't for the boulders you'd just sink up to your neck in the swamps. I've used heavyweight singleplies tubeless (specialized sx) for dh racing at glencoe and fort william too (and ironically the one time I used dualplies for the endurance dh, I flatted) I tend to use fairly thinwalled singleplies- butches and barons. Mind you, I'm not fast, midfield in most races.

You don't have to be fast Northwind, you probably just ride differently. Some people are either less aware of sharp rocks or straightline stuff disregarding features that might pinch flat or slash the tyres.

Tom_1987 I can't take you seriously since you posted

[img] [/img]

Not really millitant or viciously defending fat bikes just taking the piss because you think you're the bees knees because your brother once beat another child riding Down a hill & the child grew up to be world champ.

Have any of you actually posted some logical explanations as to why semi-fat tyres are any good? Apart from..."he probably hasn't ridden any". All I've seen so far is regurgitated marketing bollocks from a bunch of angry fat bikers who jumped down my throat because they felt threatened by me criticizing a trend that's not even based on proper fat bikes, I've been riding since the age of six, I grew up with the sport - I've ridden plenty of bikes, plenty of tyres of all sizes, I'm free to make my own opinions without idiots resorting to ad hom.

If you can come along and explain to me, with some well researched opinion, as to why tall, 2.8 to 3 inch tyres instead of 29ers makes sense - then I'll engage you properly - as Northwind does.

power *s sound awsum.
Are they like danger *s but with a stronger arm?

Done wearing business socks, obviously. And possibly while flicking through a copy of the Economist..

Tom_W1987 - Member

Have any of you actually posted some logical explanations as to why semi-fat tyres are any good?

Because they might be quite fun, and they can fit in many existing bikes?

Have any of you actually posted some logical explanations as to why semi-fat tyres are any good?

Hang on.. Do we need to know why? Surely some real experiences are more important? We have had those haven't we?

In reality, riders, trails and what riders enjoy vary so much that there can be no 'any good'. It's all subjective. So stop arguing, it's stupid.

Because they might be quite fun, and they can fit in many existing bikes?

Fat bikes are fun, I've mentioned that. Proper fat bikes that is. Whether having to changed your standard trail bike for a new standard that isn't as fun as a proper fat bike, is fun, is a different matter though.

I'm really cynical about the whole thing, over the next year we will have industry and mags pushing how "fun" semi-fat bikes are - pushing new forks and frames and we'll have a whole load of people buying them based on the hype. None of these bikes will actually be able to do what a fat bike can do, but hey they'll be a bit more bouncy and fat looking. And then people will sing praises about the POS they just blew 5 grand on, to make themselves feel better about the purchase. Meanwhile we'll get a tonne of new 'essential' axle standards being pushed by the big three swamping the market to make the semi-fat bikes 'work' - these standards will then be applied to normal bikes which will be designed as semi-fat compatible or whatever the **** they decide on calling it - which will just help to drive the small boys like BTR, Cotic and even Orange out of business.

I think this adequately sums up my feelings towards 650b+.

[img] [/img]

Will anyone win any xc races on 3" tyres, will anyone win any DH races on 3" tyres, will anyone win any enduro races on 3" tyres.

If not it will only be marketed as a fun'ish trail bike for people who like to be extra.

If it does win any of the above races they may actually take off as the next big thing replacing the last big thing.

Was that before or after you and scruff cried when Phil made you carry your bikes up a bit of a hill?

Crying? All I see in this photo is calm composure. I only had to get off for the last 2 mninutes 😉

[img] [/img]

🙂

Will anyone win any xc races on 3" tyres, will anyone win any DH races on 3" tyres, will anyone win any enduro races on 3" tyres.

Will 90% of the bike buying public care? No

Will 90% of the bike buying public care? No

98%.

Will 90% of the bike buying public care? No

My, there's a lot of paranoia out there, isn't there?

Personally, I think the past few years have seen some great innovation and we now have more choice than ever about the sort of bikes we want to ride. Of course the industry/market won't support everything but that's life.

I love riding my rigid bike with a 29+ on the front. For me, that's all that matters.

^^ more importantly when are you splashing for a B+ rear so I can demo it?