Forum menu
Anyone who thinks the e-MTBs referenced by the OP are reducing car miles is probably mistaken.
I used to drive to my nearest decent riding spot. Now I ride the 9 miles each way to ride with my mates, usually do around 27 miles total, sometimes 3 times a week.
My friends in Austria recently both got E MTBs. Now they hardly use the car as they can go on the bikes into the local village to shop etc and back up the hill.
As for the line about having to slog up hills to develop the necessary skills to ride, do you think the teenage DH riders and slopestyle riders did that? What about the BMXers whose skills wipe the floor with most MTBers?
Most MTBers just get on a bike and pedal, never practice skills. Emtbs are perfect tools for sessioning stuff which is how you learn to really ride, not grinding up a hill.
Robz TBH anger was the wrong word. Ridicule was more like it.
Not yet.
I enjoy the suffering.
I spoke to one of my colleagues today who was astounded that I cycle 8 miles to and from work on the flat each day. I think what we (regular mountain bikers) think is a acceptable mileage, and what an average civilian thinks is doable is probably further apart than we often think
I had that when I changed GP practice. The nurse was amazed at the mileage I'd done that week.
Probably because I look like and weigh like I should ride an E-bike.
The bicycle as a machine is a very efficient way of getting about. An e-bicycle is, to my mind an extension of that.
If I could use one to Access trails further away without driving, then awesome.
I think some forget what most people are prepared to spend on a pushbike. Some of us may think nothing of dropping a weeks wages on a wheelset. The majority not so much.
You are definitely likely to meet Ebikes on the trail as they go faster so will catch up. A bicycle will likely travel slower and not catch up unless there's a big fitness/faffing offset.
I have a few reasons why I won't buy an E-bike in the near future, but that's another thread.
I've just bought a moderately priced ebike. Last week. Fab spec for the money. Can't fault it.
I saved hard. Treated myself.
Allows me to go round my local loops quicker. Loads quicker. With more ease. I can do it after working a night shift. I can go out for 40 mins after the kids have gone to bed and return and have my wife go out for exercise without impacting on her time. Vice versa.
Young kids so someone has to be home and we both want to get some kind of time out the house after work/kids.
Allows me to squeeze riding into our busy family life.
I can now go on an epic ride early sun morn and be back in half the time and be present. What's not to like.
Am I lazy and fat? I've got a beer belly. I've noted I've ridden more year on year since making a Strava account in 2014. I'm reasonably fit and can do full day in the saddle.
Is it a proper workout? Nah, it's like going for a strenuous walk. At the most.
Will I stop riding normal bikes? I'm going bpw next week on the full suss. I adore my hardtail and rode that with a friend today. Nimble nimble nimble, So no.
Did I fall for marketing and not really need one? No. It's a game changer for those who have to ride a few miles before trails and who don't have guilt free time on tap.
I wouldn't want the sport to become ebikes only but I'm a true convert.
I have an ebike.....
I use it when traveling locally and don't want to arrive sweaty....
Is it my.default....nah too bloody slow if there isn't a substantial hill involved or a child in a trailer.
Colleague has a chipped fancy specialised roadie...... Says it does 20 mph- I'll debate that as it doesn't take much effort on the road bike to leave him behind
Could you define both of those terms for me as I perhaps don’t see them as being much different. Do you think that mainstream = winch and plummet?
I wasn't a very clear with the terms there - by mainstream I mean the image portrayed by the brands and media, the bikes that are seen as aspired to and the image most riders align to. The zeitgeist of MTB perhaps. The flow of fun trails and the descents more than the climbs and distance. Maybe not quite winch + plummet as mainstream but certainly seeing a lot of that locally. Mainstream MTB aspirations will be for e-MTBs more so in future than now, and now they're more aspir3ed to than they were a few years ago. As the bikes get better and prices of good ones drops they will replace unpowered MTBs in new bike sales reports.
This is talking about the side of MTB where riders are spending a fair bit on bikes and travel to destinations etc. That's all more on the trail/enduro side where bikes tend to be bought for the biggest days out they'll do rather than the averages or being as light and efficient as possible. Knee pads and skills progression, 140mm+ FS and so on.
By XC riding I mean longer rides and the fitness aspect - the XC that seems a bit roadie and not very exciting to many MTBers.
Easy to pick holes in generalisations like that of course, and it's all blurred at the edges. You could do a 90 min XC ride in the Tweed valley on some quite 'enduro' trails and it'd be close to an XC WC round.
I suppose I see a 'gap jump' happening where the riders who can afford £3-4k for a trad MTB are making up the price gap up to an e-MTB to enable more descending per ride, since mainstream MTB is about the fun, buzz, social and the descents. E-MTBs make the climbs more fun and a new type of challenge.
E-MTBs also have the social advantage in levelling up a group and the move towards e-MTB in a group is a pull that's aiding sales.
^ That's about the 'today's MTBs default' part of the OP, the bikes being presented by brands, rather than current rider culture since we might have a lag when we own bikes 2-5 years before replacing.
I don’t remember any anger related to mtb suspension or disc brakes when they were introduced.
Are you kidding? both suspension/rigid and the flat bar vs riser bar "debate" needed UN levels of mediation for some posters on here, and don't get me started on disc brake vs Vee brakes, or square taper vs HT2...Lordy
But those innovations became commonplace way before the singletrack forum.
I had suspension forks (marzocchi Zokes) and riser bars (club roost) in like 1996 and I think I got my first hope disc brakes in 1997.
Square taper to hollowtech 2 etc was also a no brainer innovation.
Again all these developments improved technology that was inferior (for actual real mountain biking).
All were games changers. Remember, people on here argue about anything and everything. I was talking about the real world, where everyone I knew or met at races were delighted to ditch cantis, Magura hydraulics, v brakes, square taper cranks and rigid forks.
I think they’re great enabling technologies for those that really need them but loads of people just don’t.
This is really the issue for me and I know it’s “elitist” but I really don’t think a fair chunk of those adopting eMTBS need them.
I know I'm biting and it's the usual +/- topic on e-bikes.. Why do we have to 'need' one? Aren't we over all that yet?
For a lot of riders it's just buying into a different experience. No matter how fit you are they can be hard work to ride and you'll do more descending in an average short to mid-distance ride on an e-MTB. There's a good chance that e-MTBer is simply a better rider than you + I technically, plenty of e-MTBers out there on a given day who'll embarrass most of us uphill and downhill when they're on an unpowered bike.
It's a grown-ups toy, we buy bikes because they're fun and we're lucky enough to have spare time and money.
The interesting thing I’ve noticed (anecdotal of course) is ivet seen less of them at cheeky local trails or on “boring” longer bridal paths, instead eMTBs seem to be drawn more towards busier trail centres and the like.
I was wondering if this is what @jameso was meaning.
Not so much location or natural/trail centre, I was talking more about the default new bikes, brand's ranges etc and how e-bikes line up with MTB's general image.
fwiw locally I see the most e-bikes on the steep cheeky DH/singletrack trails and the connecting 'boring' bridleways. That's my kind of XC but I put less emphasis on speed down the steep stuff, ride fewer laps or loops than the e-bikers before I'm cooked and I ride byways and easy stuff from home and to connect more of the steeper areas. Whereas many of the e-bikers drive to the best spots to start and stay in that area. A bit more trail centred then. Cultural or simply based on where we live? A bit of both I expect. I like the 'boring' bridleways and riding to/from the spots : )
Are you kidding? both suspension/rigid and the flat bar vs riser bar “debate” needed UN levels of mediation for some posters on here, and don’t get me started on disc brake vs Vee brakes, or square taper vs HT2…Lordy
And they were just the qualifiers for The Wheel Size Debate..
But those innovations became commonplace way before the singletrack forum.
You say that like you seem to think there was logic behind people arguing the toss about anything on here. 🙂
To the OP, if you asked a random in the street to describe a mountain bike, I reckon we’re still a long way off them saying ‘knobbly tyres, suspension and an engine’ levels of default features.
I have an ebike…..I use it when traveling locally and don’t want to arrive sweaty….
Is it my.default….nah too bloody slow if there isn’t a substantial hill involved or a child in a trailer.
This is us too (apart from the child bit, we don't have kids). Brill for popping to the shops with a pannier or a trailer for heavy stuff that you can't (be arsed) to carry on foot. We don't have a car (it was stolen so we decided to spend some of the insurance settlement on a couple of Tongsheng kits for our hardtails rather than get back on the PITA merry-go-round of used cars, insurance, MOTs, tax etc., not to mention the horror of actually driving anywhere now) For skids and wheelies and pedalling faster than 25km/h we both have meat-powered bouncy bikes. I would [i]love[/i] a go a on a nice FS ebike though.
E-bikes are a great enabler, I had a ride up to my mam's during the week and saw loads of older people out and about on them (possibly rather than in cars?), that's got to be A Good Thing, surely?
@jameso - thanks for the reply. Aligns with my thoughts/observations. I have friends who have both powered and non-powered bikes and their choice on any given day does split along similar lines.
As regards costs, I'm amused that folk are quoting £3 - 4,000 bikes as being "not expensive" and some sort of bargain.
I think the genius of ebikes is that they left the pedals on.
It allows people to cosplay at cycling and avoid the reality of what they're actually doing.
well put Copa
It allows people to cosplay at cycling and avoid the reality of what they’re actually doing.
Roadie : )
As regards costs, I’m amused that folk are quoting £3 – 4,000 bikes as being “not expensive” and some sort of bargain.
Me too tbh. Dunno about a bargain but for a keen rider it's not the 'high end' anymore? It's where e-FS-MTB seems to start.
Those of you complaining about ebikes causing erosion. I hope you have mudguards on and ride thru not round puddles and boggy bits. That causes huge trail damage because mudguards aren't cool. I hope you never build illegal trails. Thats vandalism and really annoys non bikers. I hope you don't ride at all when its wet except trail centres because that causes massive erosion
Or are you just hypocrites using exactly the same arguements that non bikers use against bikers.
I have heard some elitist nonsense on here before but some of the posters are bang out of order.
Get over yourselves
My unit is in a yard full of tradesmen yobbo's (Brexit, casual racism and sexism etc etc) who's idea of fun used to be MX etc. Always revving up unsilenced bikes in the yard.
Recently they have all got into eBikes and its bliss - nice and quiet (apart from the racist banter obvs) plus I genuinely think that if they start riding and associating with other riders they might even get into non-ebikes (one was making noises about a gravel bike last week......plus they are getting fitter and that can only be a good thing for the NHS
The only thing that annoys me is that ebikes are legal but I can't use an eSkateboard or oneWheel legally!
Not sure they are the default as suggested by the OP. Regular bikes will still far outsell electric, although no doubt the majority of bike sales are to people who have nothing to do with 'proper' mtb riding and thus this forum type of rider.
Personaly, I've been riding bikes 40+ years and mtbs 30+, having had many over the years. Since they came out, I've always had electric bikes as cheating and not looked at them.
However, as I go into my 50s and have a few body parts that don't function as they used to, I find myself getting tired and fed up after a couple of hours ride. Getting older sucks but, having had a go on an electric bike I found I could ride longer yet still have as good an overall workout as non electric.
I don't whiz around in turbo everywhere, more using it in the bottom 2 of 5 assist modes. Doing so gives me the feeling of 30 years ago when I could fly round everything hills or not.
I find it slightly amusing that I am now (still) getting super fit riders coming past my uphill smiling and some even shake there head that an ebike can be so slow. I am still wanting to put effort in, just go further and for longer.
Perhaps the fact that a lot of people don't know how ebikes actually work doesn't help with the perception. Most if not all retail full bikes give assistance proportionate to the rider effort, so not all free power. Yes they don't require much rider input in turbo full fat mode but not everybody rides like that.
Having ridden mine in greater assistance mode on a few stretches, I find it harder work as the speed and momentum becomes addictive which requires full effort input and a quicker reaction time etc. Clearly this approach is a lot faster than a normal mtb, especially uphill, but it does still give the rider a workout.
Not sure where this post is going now, Suffice to say, ebikes are not just easy or cheating, they are simply a different way of riding and on the whole I welcome them.
It allows people to cosplay at cycling and avoid the reality of what they’re actually doing.
Why do you think these riders give a crap if they are 'real' cycling or not? Can they not just have fun in the outdoors?
I have to say that this kind of attitude is a major downer. I always wanted to try surfing, and I am acutely aware that large numbers of 'proper' surfers really look down on me messing about in the waves on my foam board. It's unpleasant, intimidating, and makes me feel like giving up which would result in me having less fun at the seaside.
I've been a keen cyclist since I was 15 or so, I don't want an eBike, but I strongly object to people considering themselves the gatekeeper of a sport based on their own values.
The "reality" of what they are doing is enjoying themselves in the outdoors without causing much bother. I think you need to get over yourself.
For me something I'd consider is like the levo sl or newer light emtb.
So for me a favourite loop is Jacobs ladder reverse (so up Jacobs ladder and loop back to castleton).
I'd need a bike just light enough to get up the tougher bits of Jacobs ladder and just enough assistance so I'm not pushing the bike up the steep path past the farm house.
Cost is a big barrier plus being able to get spares, fix thing in years to come.
Not every alternate opinion is “elitist”.
I have to say that this kind of attitude is a major downer. I always wanted to try surfing, and I am acutely aware that large numbers of ‘proper’ surfers really look down on me messing about in the waves on my foam board. It’s unpleasant, intimidating, and makes me feel like giving up which would result in me having less fun at the seaside.
A better analogy would be if you were surfing on a jetski.
It also works both ways.
How many kids feel crappy and self-conscious because they're riding a normal bike while their mates all have £5,000 mopeds.
No robz but the nasty tone of some on here including the op certainly is.
I just wanted to pop in and say that I hope my OP didn't suggest a judgement on eMTBs. @molgrips already converted me to accepting them as valid.
@tjagain: I asked a question based on something I read. That's it. Are you suggesting that the very question itself implies judgement or nastiness?
Those of you complaining about ebikes causing erosion. I hope you have mudguards
**** that's where I'm going wrong. Mudguards prevent erosion.
Fit some to an ebike . All arguments null
I am old have heart problems but will continue to pedal a normal bike as long as I can. When I can't I will look at an ebike.
I would like to be able infest ebike riders with a plague of wasps who look smug, make condescending remarks and run into the back of you on climbs at trail centres.
There is nothing wrong with ebikes just some of the riders.
Surfing and jet skis aren’t quite the same analogy as bikes but can see why you’d make the suggestion.
Ultimately it must come down to the well used answer to most things in life - Don’t be a dick.
All it takes is respect towards each other and all is good. We are all out doing something, which in itself is great. The fact it is cycling should be even better 😃
As for older kit, the first time I cycled into work on my new mtb build at the time in 2000, it had a front hydraulic brake (Hope C2) and rear suspension.
The number of work mates and customers who saw it that got all weird because it was more like a motocross bike than a push bike was genuinely surprising.
My ebike is the first MTB I’ve ever put a rear mudguard on (it has a front one too but so have my other MTBs for a decade).
I can’t recall ever tailgating anyone on my ebike because it’s easy to hang back and pass politely using the extra power when there’s room. But on my singlespeed hardtail it’s quite easy to seem like you’re badgering the rider in front because if you go any slower you’ll stall.
and I am acutely aware that large numbers of ‘proper’ surfers really look down on me messing about in the waves on my foam board. It’s unpleasant, intimidating, and makes me feel like giving up which would result in me having less fun at the seaside.
we don’t. Proper surfers are highly unlikely to be anywhere near where you’re messing around on your sponge. HTH.
Hmm, in trying to show how you're not an elitist dick you e managed to sound just like an elitist dick.
Would you rather I lied to make you feel better?
Saxonrider. Sorry mate not your op. My mistake
Trailrat. Riders going round muddy bits causes trail widening and braiding. Folk do it because they don't want to get muddy and wet. If you have mudguards its not an issue. I have seen this repeatedly folk riding alongside paths
Definitely. Who would want a motorless bike these days? More opportunities to travel less distance at a slower speed with plenty of pushing.
Ebikes are bloody brilliant and the sooner analogue bikes die off the better as far as I'm concerned.
Absolute rolling roadblocks on the trail, but you know, gotta earn them turns rather than having fun.
The plague of wasps is on its way 🙂
I wonder where the electricity to recharge all of these small motorbikes is coming from?
Do the solar panels on your t6's produce enough juice to charge your step-down Surron? Legitimate question?
Some might scorn climbers' arguments about ethics, but at least they have the conversation and appear to put environmental and social impact high up in their moral system. Here it just descends into calling people poor. Even pistonheads doesn't sink that low.
I know of a chap touring the uk on an ebike, with a trailer that has a solar panel on top, to charge the battery, so yeah, they can.
Trailrat. Riders going round muddy bits causes trail widening and braiding. Folk do it because they don’t want to get muddy and wet. If you have mudguards its not an issue. I have seen this repeatedly folk riding alongside paths
And worse, they do it with 2.8" knobbly tyres that churn up the land like its some sort of horticultural implement.
Folk do it because they don’t want to get muddy and wet
Really ? Don't remember seeing that data published any where
🤣
I have time for that. Can he run the ebike motor indefintley?
Otherwise - if the ebike replaces a car journey it offloads the energy production to the national grid which is more efficien5 but the environmental issue onto battery waste and lithium extraction. If the ebike replaces a real bike, that's less cool with me.
I might change my mind when alu oxide batteries become workable.