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My F120's are being serviced for the first time in 2 years of UK riding. I have lots of these wear marks but have not had any oil leaks yet. My mechanic advised a full stanchion change which is about 200 quid worth. I'm just going to change the seals and ride them until they completely die.
just to throw in more personal experience...all of these forks are still in regular use either by me, my girlfriend or on the front of friends bikes as loaners.
2003 Vanilla 125 - never serviced, sold in 2006, new owner changed oil once, bushings now sloppy but still working ok.
2004? Vanilla 130 - dropped the lowers off about 3 years ago, were perfect then, still work perfect now although slightly weepy seal on one side so might change that soon.
2005 36 TALAS - bought 2nd hand in 2008, no idea about previous owner services, I was going to service them this year but cracked the lowers so had new lowers fitted, apparently uppers were fine when the shop swapped them for me.
2009 36 TALAS - bought 2nd hand in 2010, no idea about previous owner services, no *visible* signs of wear but then I've never taken the lowers off these forks yet so who knows.... feel peachy though 🙂
2007 36 Floats - bought 2nd hand this year, no idea about previous services, lowers dropped off last week and no signs of wear, will keep riding and recheck in the spring.
2008 32 Vanilla - no service yet, going on previous vanillas I don't intend to service them either unless they start feeling poo or oil comes out of bits its not supposed to.
2006 Coil Recons - weepy seal, other than that no wear that i could see when i dropped the lowers yesterday aftnoon.
2010 Domains - never touched them, dont intend to, i recon they will go on forever
1999 Marzocchi Z1 - changed the oil about 5 years ago, still perfect
1999 Marzocchi Z2 - never touched them, still work fine, no leaks yet...
2005 Boxxers - klunky, leaky, scratched and chipped uppers but no wear - def in need of a service internally....
FWIW, I rarely if ever actually clean my bikes (ask my mates, they will vouch for that...), I wipe off the big clumps from the whirly bits and the bouncy bits, apply a little lube and other than that i just wait for the bumps and puddles to rattle/splash the rest off.
So going on my personal experience, pretty much all forks are reliable for me, I ruined a few pairs of judys in the 90's but I dont really count them, they were awful.
I thought I'd replace the seals although on the whole they seemed fine. Evans only had the newer (SKF) seals in stock which are almost double the price of the older ones. I would have just bought the older seals to be honest if they'd had them but I want get back on my bike asap. I'm posting some side by side comparison photos for all you Seal Geeks out there so you can make up your own minds whether the upgrade is worth it. SKF seal is on the right (SKF just visible at the top). The lip on the newer seal feels stiffer.
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I'm convinced this whole "Fox stanchions wear out quick", is just a load of guff, and they don't wear any quicker than any other manufacturer. I think that people have picked up on the relatively short service intervals, coupled this with a few tales of wear and decided that they must wear quick.
Over and above my personal experience I have a mate who owns a set of float 36's and a Dhx4 air shock that I sold him in 2008, which I'd bought 2nd hand in 2007. He lives in Morzine and have done 3 seasons of daily riding and 2 x mega's. The 36's eventually had an oil change and wiper seal service this year, and they had negligable wear. However, like me, he cleans the bike after any crappy weather ride, and sprays the stanchions with silicon spray. He's never touched the Dhx and it still works fine.
I'm going to change the oil and seals today in my Fox 32 Talas 140mm from 2008. My first time, wish me luck and please post any useful tips guys because like I said it's my first time.
In fact, a question... I have enduro seals in right now. I bought standard Fox seals last week new. Can I use the foam rings in my new pack and the older enduro outers? would like to know before I try!
Thanks, Rob.
[url= http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/Service/QuickTech/32_Talas_ll_seal_change.htm ]simple talas service[/url]
2 * 32 2007 talas, 2006 32 floats and 2010 36 talas. Not had any stantion wear and don't adhere to the fox service intervals. One set of the 2007 has done over 15,000 miles and has been a delight to own , easy to service and has worked faultlessly in all conditions (though the talas can be slow to respond around the -10 mark). I occasionally oil the stantions and seals with a few drops of float fluid and lift the seals and run them over electrical tape when they start showing signs of oil is passing them and try and change the seals and oil on a yearly basis. Whether it's luck/location or some other reason I don't know, i did read somewhere that some people were suggesting it was the acid in stuff like muck off.
mildred, I can't agree with that at all.this whole "Fox stanchions wear out quick", is just a load of guff,
This is my admittedly limited experience:
1. Fox 32 RL 2009 - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Lasted about 8 months before inner surface of LH leg showed scoring from bushings. No servicing done. Dropped lowers at 8 months to change oil etc and found already too late, damage done.
2. Rockshox Reba Team 2009 - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Lasted about 18 months before showing a wear patch in coating at rear of RH leg. Dropped lowers etc once at about 9 months. No damage at that point.
3. 2010 Marzocchi 44RC3Ti - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Only one year in so far and not touched 'em but can see no signs of wear. Will drop lowers to check soon.
Limited sample, but I'd say:
1. Fox was just not fit for purpose. The failure mode is exactly the same as everyone else has experienced. This is a design fault. I won't buy another Fox fork. (Not had any problem with RP2 rear though)
2. RS wear was very localised to the point on the stanchion where the mid point of the travel passed through the seal. When I stripped them, the foam ring was mucky and so I'm putting this down to not servicing early enough. Could have been avoided maybe, seems like I just got unlucky with some dirt becoming trapped 🙁 Would buy again but treat with care.
3. The Marzocchi has been faultless so far but I haven't stripped yet so will defer full judgement.
So far .... Marzocchi (OK) > RS (almost acceptable) > Fox (absolute rubbish)
All IMHO and limited experience of course.
I bought a 2nd hand pair of fox floats ran them for over 12 months with no maintenance on them at all. Finally got them serviced them in July this year - no problems.
What rotor sizes are people using that are seeing stanchion wear?
@clunk: Nice one mate!
I have wotans on both of my bikes. No such problems. Really beautifully manufactured internals plus very easy and quick to self service.
Maybe the stiffness of them also help to avoid rubbing issues?
The oil bath also constantly lubricates the stanchions.
Can't recommend them more.
mildred, I can't agree with that at all.This is my admittedly limited experience:
1. Fox 32 RL 2009 - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Lasted about 8 months before inner surface of LH leg showed scoring from bushings. No servicing done. Dropped lowers at 8 months to change oil etc and found already too late, damage done.
hang on a sec....
8 months, no service, and you're claiming not fit for purpose?
I know in my own post i said mine had been fine with little to no servicing for longer but had they shown signs of wear I wouldn't be placing the blame on the forks since I haven't looked after them at all.
I have a set of 2005 36 Talas R's that Ive owned since new, I think they've been serviced 3 times by mojo in the last 6 years, and they were absolutely fine at the last service, no stantion wear. I didnt perform any sort of interim seal servicing. all I did was squirt a bit of silicone lubricant on the stantions occaisonally.
I also have a 2006 dhx air 5 and that hasnt been professionally serviced at all, but I did do an air can service once a couple of years ago, and its still mostly fine, it could probably do with a proper service as its making a squish noise which I think indicates the oil is aerated.
i serviced my talas rl last night, i have had them for 2 years and git them second hand, everything inside was fine, the oil was a little dirty but thats it. i think i may service them more often as it only costs £15 for a 32mm seal kit from mojo once you already have the oil
i did find one small scratch on the stanchion, its external, around 5mm long and i can feel it with my nail, hope this does not cause any issues
also done my rear rp23, also fine
To answer the OP's quesion. Yes, I'd say they are an inherantly bad design, certainly as far as UK condition are concerned:-
1) Sliding one tube through another to transfer impact forces from a different angle (usually not in the plane of sliding) means you're not off to a good start and relying on lubricant and a very thin, slippery coating in an attempt to reduce the inevitable friction and resist wear and tear isn't great either.
2) The open stanchion / seal concept on mtb forks is fundamentally flawed for everything but that nice dust you get overseas - make them better / tighter and you introduce stiction, make them looser and the fork becomes more plush but dirt gets in and starts sanding the stanchions / bushings for you.
3) The bearing surface is exposed to the elements, incredibly thin and part of the main structure of the fork rather than being sacrificial. Because of this, repair is usually almost as expensive as replacement.
I had a conversation recently with someone who works at a very well known suspension servicing company. He told me the quality control at Fox is all over the place - some will go on for ever and others will start to wear pretty fast. He also said their damping unit design is poor compared to Rock Shocks' - RS had already patented the sensible way of doing it and Fox had to come up with a different (and more convoluted) way of achieving the same thing.
Jim points 1 to 3 do cover the 'weak points' of telescopic fork design as with motorcycles too, dispite this and numerous different systems being tried, notably the BWM front suspension system, telescopic forks are still the main type of front suspension system used.
The suspension company would in reference would most likely be refering to the older open bath damping system in the fox forks, the newer FIT dampers are very good.
In light of jimification's undeniably true observations on the shortcomings of current fork design, should we be considering additional stanchion protection? Maybe neoprene covers weren't such a bad idea.
The trouble is that unless the protection is regulary cleaned 'they' tend to become a reservoir for dirt and you end up with accelerated wear.
Yeah, I can imagine that LoCo.
Think I might revisit the options for preventing the area around the stanchions catching all the flying muck. One of theose fender things maybe, instead of a Neogaurd type which might be exacerbating the problem by doing its job and catching more cr&p!
The mucky nutz ones seem to do quite a good job
Funny how you VERY rarely see this issue cropping up on much bigger sites like MTBR.
I've not heard about Canadian riders having issues and they ride in very wet/muddy conditions where forks get ridden pretty hard. Or is that the wrong type of mud? Maybe riding harder causes more bath oil to circulate and prevents wear. Riding on tow paths leave them dry so you get wear 😉
It's just an urban myth perpetuated by fox haterz. Just joking, kind of.
Off to the mancave tonight to fashion something resembling a Mucky Nutz from a PET drink bottle and a few cableties....