[Closed] Apparently our business model is wrong.

Surely anyone with any common sense then looks for the bike online, 9 times out of 10 finds it cheaper and ultimately you don't sell anything?

sometimes get people saying 'Can you do anything with the price?"

"I can put it up if you like" is my answer if they're annoying me.

Then complain on here that cyclist would rather deal with a web page?

Some shops give discounts and some will throw in freebies; worth asking really.

Some shops give discounts and some will throw in freebies; worth asking really.

Be sure to ask next time you're at a supermarket. Or your local corner shop for a pint of milk. After all, they're only there to give you a discount and some freebies. You deserve it, just for asking, no matter what. They're not there to provide a service, and woe betide that anyone should be allowed to actually make a living out of it....

FFS.

I'm assuming when you buy a car or house you just offer the asking price straight away then?

Be sure to ask next time you're at a supermarket. Or your local corner shop for a pint of milk. After all, they're only there to give you a discount and some freebies. You deserve it, just for asking, no matter what. They're not there to provide a service, and woe betide that anyone should be allowed to actually make a living out of it....

they don't usually stretch the elasticity of a an items value quite so much as a lbs does or if they do its not on high value items.

CaptainFlashheart - um really you serious? Supermarket?! Doesn't really help your argument.

Midshark in what other shops do you espect free work?

What work do you do for free?...

if it wasn't for these numptys/lazy people local bike shops wouldn't exist anymore.

So you can fix everything you own/use?

If you'd fitted his inner tube, he's have told 10 people about what a cracking little bike shop he's found, they'd have told 10 people ect. Out of that word of mouth, you might have, over the course of a year, sold half a dozen new bikes at RRP and converted them from Halfords shoppers to LBS shoppers.

He clearly rarely uses bike shops. Likely his mates are less likely to. Do Halfords fit tubes for free?

If we did every tube fit for free we'd lose a bit of £. In 15 months in this shop I think he's the first to expect this for free. I'm happy for him to trawl the other local shops and find no one does it for free.

Chances of him coming back to apologise?

The average person who needs a tube fitted has just pulled their 15 year old bike out of the shed and doesn't know how to fix it.

99% of people who want a tube fixed don't buy anything else, as most people who ride bikes for a hobby and spend money on bikes generally know how to do it themselves.

Midshark in what other shops do you espect free work?

None - I didn't say that.

Customer suggestions to make things cheaper or do them for free seem to be based on anecdata, and uncannily aligned with whatever's best for them rather than whatever business they're dealing with. A race to the bottom on pricing isn't going to do anyone any good. If bike shops trended towards doing stuff for free, the ones that survive would probably have to accompany that with a much harder sell.

A softer approach is building community rather than just appealing to people's wallets. I know of one LBS that luckily has a lot of space. They've built a cafe at the front, a load of ramps in the warehouse out back along with a venue to host parties, and are hoping to also put in a pump track and maybe a foam pit too. I hope it works out for them.

One of the problems the internet has brought us is many things that consumers used to pay for are now effectively free. For a web-based business this is fine as the marginal cost to the business of supplying one more unit is zero. That works well for software and other IT or service-based products.

But for a owner-managed bricks and mortar shop where sales assistant time spent fitting a tube for free, has an opportunity cost attached to it e.g. the other customer who wanted to spend £1k on a bike who leaves because the shop assistant was too busy to deal with them.

Customers need to learn that businesses only survive if they make a profit - especially small businesses, and stop acting like spoilt children. What's partly offensive her IMO is the customer telling Al how he should run his business, when his opinion wasn't asked for...

I remember when I was in ad agencies having to explain to a client that if they didn't pay for the time it took to make all the amends they wanted, I'd have to make one of the account managers redundant... there's a moral obligation to expecting stuff for free in many circumstances...

It simply sums up as a lot of people have no concept of value anymore, price is king. RRP is a notional value that is seen as an insult and peoples time is free. While spending 10-15mins sorting out somebodies tube for free (nothing is ever straight forward) your not doing paid jobs (or calling customers back) or selling bikes.

Was the customer a bell-end? Yes, definitely. Should he expect to go into a shop and get something for nothing (particularly when he's not buying anything else)? No.

However, I'm inclined to agree that some LBSs need to look at their business model. Doggedly following the same path, hoping that consumer attitudes to small businesses are going to change for the better (before they go bust), is crazy.

Ultimately, this guy has left the shop feeling what? Angry? Ripped off? Determined to change his own tubes in future? You have just converted an LBS shopper into a home mechanic.

Why not charge him a fiver for changing his tube, but give him five pounds off a future "service". You've still charged him the same fiver, but he leaves the shop feeling like he's got some goodwill - and you've potentially converted a 5 quid customer into a 50 quid (or however much) customer. Not to mention all the parts you can sell him when he comes back to have his bike serviced.

But maybe you've already tried that.

Part of the issue from a customer's view may be how the cost compares to a whole new bike, especially a cheap one.

For instance, Walmart sells [url= http://www.walmart.com/ip/Roadmaster-Granite-Peak-26-Men-s-Mountain-Bike-Black/34931885 ]this bike[/url] for $80. Your 11 GBP tube and fitting is about $18.75, or 23% of the cost of the whole new bike! From that perspective, I can see how it seems ridiculous.

But you're a UK mechanic working on a used bike, so your costs are higher. And if you think about it, you have to remove the wheel (bolted on BSO?), remove at least one side of the tire, remove the old tube, check for a thorn, insert the new tube, reseat the tire, inflate it, and reinstall the wheel.

A Chinese worker on an assembly line doesn't have to remove the wheel from the bike, remove the old tube, check for a thorn, or any of that stuff. And he's dealing with all new materials, and may only be responsible for one small step in the process.

Stuff is manufactured on assembly lines because it is very efficient. Repairs are one-offs and can't be done that way, so the cost is bound to be higher.

All prices are an offer to treat legally and can be discussed. It's not a case of getting something for nothing. Why not discuss the cost of a bike? He or she may become a regular customer so securing long term cash flow they may also buy accessories helmet or want a bike service. I'm sure when I go in to a car dealer or house purchase I expect to discuss the price. Yes business need to make a profit but simply refusing to discuss the price isn't the business model for any industry. And on a point of law you can go into a super market and haggle the price of a loaf or milk (legally).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitation_to_treat

If your in large industries no price is offered but you submit a sealed bid that's opened along with the rest seeking to be awarded the contract. So maybe it's time to look at your business model

If you'd fitted his inner tube, he's have told 10 people about what a cracking little bike shop he's found, they'd have told 10 people ect. Out of that word of mouth, you might have, over the course of a year, sold half a dozen new bikes at RRP and converted them from Halfords shoppers to LBS shoppers.

Last couple of times I went into my lbs for trivial things (a bmx chainring of a 1pc crank) it took 30 secs. I was expecting to be charged at least a fiver proabably a tenner - they had the tools and knowledge - it doesnt matter if its a 30 sec job if I can't do it!. No charge, so I bought a bundle of inner tubes, and have been back since for locks, lights ect - even when I suspect the local large store in walking distance might be cheaper.

Free fitting on a chainring (£30 part, quick job) is different to a £5 inner tube (which probably takes about the same ammount of time but involves the customers dog shit smeared rim and if he's that incompetent* and arsey already, probably a "warranty" claim when he next punctures).

*it's an innertube, you could change it in the car park quiker than waiting for the mechanic to finish his current job!

No bike shop really wants to spend their day fitting tubes.

If your business model is built on changing tubes ..............

when im at work i get paid.
if im late back at the garage by 5 mins, i get paid the extra time.
when i go to the supermarket/mcdonalds/local paper shop etc i buy stuff and pay whatever amount rings up on the till, i wouldnt dream of asking for discount.
i dont understand why people automatically expect a discount (or work to be done for free) in their lbs.
although, i dont see the harm in asking, i wouldnt on my first visit though.
EDIT: " his 10 mates would have turned up for free puncture repairs too"
this is what would happen.

I've never asked for a discount at my lbs, not once. However, after using it for many years, the guys in there give me 20% off everything, except stuff that they don't make enough from or aren't allowed to discount. If you are good enough, people will come back, bugger all to do with fitting inner tubes for free.

Must be a nightmare in bike shops at times, so many bloody time wasters.

Is there really one correct answer to this?

There's a bike shop near me that for some undefinable reason I don't particularly like, I don't know why but ... However, it's convenient and I've been in for small sundry items: cable anti-rub patches, that sort of thing and they've just gone "no charge so long as you come in again and buy something" which to be honest I have done and continue to do so.

Bricks and mortar shops have quite a lot of fixed overheads that have to be paid for somehow and those costs can't be paid for simply by once a month someone walking in and buying a £3K bike. If I went to the above shop with a wheel out of true and asked them to fix it then that takes time so if they don't charge me for that time then they need to recoup it by charging someone else a little bit more.

Do I "showroom" (try stuff in the shop then buy online?), very, very occasionally but equally if I see an item on the web let's say for £100 and the shop has it for £110 then I'll often just get it from the shop as I may have to take a bit of time off work or other hassle to take delivery of it from the web store so it's swings and roundabouts.

Getting a shop to do something for you rather than doing it yourself? Well if you work out what your time is worth it might be surprising: take your annual salary (or wage) and round to the nearest thousand; divide by a thousand then divide that figure by two. This gives you your approximate hourly rate. So if you are on the national average salary of £26K your hourly rate is £13/hr. It's up to you to decide if what the LBS charges for a job is worth it in your particular case.

[i]Getting a shop to do something for you rather than doing it yourself? Well if you work out what your time is worth it might be surprising: take your annual salary (or wage) and round to the nearest thousand; divide by a thousand then divide that figure by two. This gives you your approximate hourly rate. So if you are on the national average salary of £26K your hourly rate is £13/hr. It's up to you to decide if what the LBS charges for a job is worth it in your particular case. [/i]

Unfortunately that is what people do, and compare their salary hourly rate with an LBS's 'charge' rate - rather than compare their 'cost' to their company. Which is probably upwards of twice their salary.

I even had this at work once with an Accountant. My dept had to be self-funding so I was charging at £400pd, and he said that was twice what he earned. I then showed him how his £50k salary actually worked out at +£85k cost...

Hmmm, imgaine the customer's position (you are in retail after all)

First you have to deal with a grumpy shop operative refusing to help, then you see yourself slagged and ridculed on a bike forum.

Hope your technical skills are better than your personal skills or the shop's ****ed 😛

But would you have let him borrow a 4mm allen key if he'd just spent £50?

when i go to the supermarket/mcdonalds/local paper shop etc i buy stuff and pay whatever amount rings up on the till, i wouldnt dream of asking for discount.

No-one would - except perhaps for a large order at a local shop I suppose.

Certainly charge a workshop rate for fitting tubes - and advise if tyres are in a bad way. Maybe free fitting if they buy a few spares/tyres (if got the time spare)? Must be a good mark up on tubes'n'tyres.

Unfortunately that is what people do, and compare their salary hourly rate with an LBS's 'charge' rate - rather than compare their 'cost' to their company. Which is probably upwards of twice their salary.

My mistake - I didn't mean to suggest comparing customer "hourly rate" with what an LBS charges as there are the the hidden costs to consider - business rates, rent, insurance, that sort of thing. Even as an office worker my salary cost is only about half what it actually costs the company to employ me.

First you have to deal with a grumpy shop operative refusing to help, then you see yourself slagged and ridculed on a bike forum.

I wasn't at all grumpy - but your assumptiongives away your bias.

I did help - I provided what the customer needed at a reasonable price, and offered to repair at a reasonable price.

I love this:

Must be a good mark up on tubes'n'tyres.

There just "must be". LOL.

You imply both that you you dont know at all, but also that you do, to get the "fact" that you want.

The only time I've asked for a discount in a bike shop was when buying a new bike from a shop that was heavily promoting interest free credit. I asked what the cash price would be, assistant came straight back at me with the offer of accessories to the value of 10%. Which seemed a fair deal for me and the shop. Deal done.

There just "must be".

Of course there must Al, otherwise how do all the bike shop owners have fast cars and supermodel girlfriends.

Again internet pricing has distorted the market, add in the OEM & grey imports and it's hard to know what retail prices are.

You imply both that you you dont know at all, but also that you do, to get the "fact" that you want.

I do know. I was being helpful but never mind.

Apparently you don't know, because like most other things the margin on decent tyres and tubes has become more and more squeezed.

OP said £5 a tube. I suggested as a business idea, if got spare time, to do a free tube change instead of charging £6 if the customer bought several more tubes and tyres. I say that £6 will be covered by the additional sales and potentially gives the customer a sense of getting a nice deal which is always good.

As I said - it's just a suggestion, don't have to do it and I don't care as I change my own tubes.

OK I get it now

Your LBS should fit inner tubes for free and carry out minor repairs for free. That will get loads of customers into the shop. You can then teach them to repair their bike so they can buy their new bits online. You can then advise them on what new bike will work for them and perhaps offer set up advice and a test ride. They will then ask how much the bike is and then be deeply offended that you want feel full retail and buy that online as well

I really can't see why that won't work

I wasn't at all grumpy - but your assumptiongives away your bias

Oh sorry, I assumed that someone who felt strongly enough to post their retail provider experiences online must have issues, maybe not grumpy then, just cranky

Apparently our business model is wrong.

I guess the cynical answer is that if you own/ work in a LBS then most likely it is compared to the rest of the cycling retail industry regardless of how much you fanny around (or not) fitting inner tubes.

There are some good LBS's around but a heck of a lot of snooty, rip off shops that sell overpriced tat and have no interest in customer service. Hard to know the exact circumstances but anything that can be done to not add to that stereotype must surely be worth something. Sounds like the customer wasn't up for any learning or compromise though so perhaps he was best on his way

It was the guy's opinion and he's entitled to it. No need to moan about him.

If he was new to you, I'd have said we'll take the suggestion on board but point out why it wouldn't work if you feel it won't generate business and just costs you money. However offer him a deal doing the tube free just this once so long as he tells his mates, or do it for a couple of quid, or throw in some little freebie that costs you nothing.

That said, an LBS by the trail side is more the kind of place you want to appear to be helping out guys who's rides are going to be cut short. Builds up reputation, encourages them to come back and ride the place again, potentially popping into the shop and telling their friends to do likewise.

In fact that's exactly what happened with me with one of the local shops, and their business picked up greatly through local reputation and doing the odd little quick fix cheap or free at their discretion (though they did encourage a donation in the charity box). I like to think I've helped by directing people to the shop.

Not saying it should be free, but going out of your way to appear to help out and give a bit if a discount even if it's first time is great way of promoting business.

Seems to me that your pricing isn't far off industry standard?. Its hard enough to keep a small business going these days. Anybody who believes the recession is over and everything is back to normal probably works in a bank or I.T

http://www.evanscycles.com/servicing

doing the odd little quick fix cheap or free at their discretion

I do loads of this, but if you're not organised/competent enough to fix a puncture, you should be paying IMO.

There are some good LBS's around but a heck of a lot of snooty, rip off shops that sell overpriced tat and have no interest in customer service

Amazing that so many shops like that survive, isn't it? 😉

I find, for most people, price is not their major concern. Other factors are more important, like can I provide the bike they want, can I do the customisation they need, can I do the specialist repair that they can't so themselves or find someone else to do? Cost, while not a minor matter, isn't the over-riding concern.

If the shop has time why not chuck the tube for free, it takes me about 5-10 mins in the cold and wet to do. Should take less for a pro bike mechanic.
the customer may be back in a few weeks looking for a new bike.

No one works for free, or works for free today on spec. of work tomorrow unless they are stupid.

Today? Local guy came into our shop with his kids bike. Wanted new front brake blocks and front puncture fixed, can we do it for £20?

Okay, shop is new, he is local with 4 kids in tow..I take this as speculation and we agree to £20.

39 minute later after faulty brake and bike is put right as best as possible ,tube swapped and missing non-drv side wheel nut has been replaced by packing out axle with spacers and using suitable nyloc, bike ready.

Guy is thankful but I now feel stupid as workshop hourly rate £50 and we sold him £5.99 inner tube and £2.99 brake blocks, but wasted time.

Interesting to see if he ever comes back..

I'm with Al,

lots of coulda woulda shoulda going on here.. I would say let the bloke spend his big wedge up front.. then Al can do his tube for free.

Assuming that the bloke will come back to spend again* is making an ASS out of U and AL

*especially when the toe-rag is using it as a bribe. scrote.

esher shore - what took so long? Dealing with the missing non-drv side wheel nut?

Could you not have pointed that out on discovery and say there'd be additional charge for? On the face of it fitting tube/brake block are small jobs - crazy that people don't feel they can tackle these jobs themselves really.

crazy that people don't feel they can tackle these jobs themselves really.