There's an interested article on Velo news
Sarah Fader, the defending masters world champion in the event, and faster qualifier, declined to race against McKinnon in the final.
From the article
“I’m not blaming Rachel for competing. A lot of people are calling her a cheater, and she’s not a cheater because the current rules allow her to do it legally,” Fader said. “I just don’t believe the current rules.”
Fader says her opinion was upheld by what she saw in the qualifying rounds. In Fader’s eyes, Dr. McKinnon dominated the other riders at the competition. Her power on the bicycle was simply too great for tactics and strategy to overcome, Fader said. And when Fader learned that Dr. McKinnon had switched from road cycling to track racing less than two years ago, she also questioned her inclusion. Fader is a cycling coach, and she believes Dr. McKinnon’s rapid rise from track newbie to world champion is a sign of an unfair advantage.
“It’s taken some women five to eight years to get that fast and [Dr. McKinnon] made these leaps and bounds in a few years,” Fader said. “For her being such a beginner and being able to hit these times that took us years to hit how do you even measure that progression?”
Other female competitors shared her opinion, Fader said, however, they were scared to speak out publicly against Dr. McKinnon. These riders feared being labeled discriminatory and insensitive, and thus kept their opinions to themselves. Indeed, one other rider from the race reached out to me to share a similar opinion to Fader’s. This rider wished to remain anonymous.
“There’s a lot of sensitivity here. I’ve spoken with women who are afraid to give their opinion because they think they will be deemed to be discriminating against transgender people, or that people will think they hate [transgender people],” Fader said. “I don’t think it’s about discrimination, I think it’s about looking logically at the rules.”
And you do know you can’t suddenly declare as a woman and then compete
But that's exactly what happened in the USA. Two junior transgender athletes (Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood) wiped the floor with their opposition in the Conneticut State Championships.
Transitioning in so far as presenting and living as girls but due to their age, they had not undergone ANY hormone treatment and were racing with all the advantages that male puberty brings.
apologies, I was talking about senior / world level. It's an ethical minefield for sure - do you bring the same rules into junior level and force people to undergo TG treatment to enable them to compete as their identified gender, but in doing so push people down a path that seems right at the time but longer term might not be?
And I'm not saying the current situation even for senior/world class athletes is right, it needs refining and sorting and I don't know what the answer is, the point i am making is that IMHO I don't think 'good but in the grand scheme of things not great' athletes are suddenly declaring themselves TG as a means of winning medals.
Maybe I'm not cynical enough and I suppose if there are ways to cheat then someone will always try to exploit them...... but weighed against the challenge of being accepted as TG in general, you'd have to really want that medal so bad.
I'm sure nobody's doing it solely to "cheat", it's just internet ****ers saying that.
It's just whether a fair system has been arrived at yet, I predict there will be changes.
To me the issue is that whenever a TG athlete wins, people call unfair advantage. I'm sure the governing bodies have done what they can to balance the interests of everyone involved, on a number of levels.
Similar to the TUE thing, can't we just trust that the governing bodies will achieve a reasonably level playing field?
I'd go with the XX/XY distinction in elite level sports, and anyone intersex that doesn't fit into that categorisation can choose where they want to compete. From what I've seen they've got enough shit already in their day-to-day life that giving them this choice is only fair.
Below elite (ie professional) levels just go with whatever people identify with. Again, some people might get an advantage over others but I find it hard to believe it's actually going to be a huge issue, and if there's no money involved the worse than can happen is to hurt the loser's feelings. And of course anyone ambitious enough to be thinking about getting into elite sports would know about the chromosone test, and would train accordingly.
Below elite (ie professional) levels just go with whatever people identify with. Again, some people might get an advantage over others but I find it hard to believe it’s actually going to be a huge issue, and if there’s no money involved the worse than can happen is to hurt the loser’s feelings.
Hurt feelings? What about something like university Rugby? I think serious injury is more likely.
I’m sure nobody’s doing it solely to “cheat”
I agree, but its not fair under the current rules.
I’d go with the XX/XY distinction in elite level sports, and anyone intersex that doesn’t fit into that categorisation can choose where they want to compete. From what I’ve seen they’ve got enough shit already in their day-to-day life that giving them this choice is only fair.
Below elite (ie professional) levels just go with whatever people identify with. Again, some people might get an advantage over others but I find it hard to believe it’s actually going to be a huge issue, and if there’s no money involved the worse than can happen is to hurt the loser’s feelings.
Broadly agree, expect you have to apply it to grass roots level as well, for safety reasons and because literally 98pc of Female entrants will be disadvantaged and those hurt feels will result directly into people giving up the sport which would be a shame. I'm sure you'd hardly ever need to test anyone at grass roots level, but in the unlikely event a 6ft4 girl with a long reach turned up at a 6th form boxing match it would be nice for her opponent to be able to decline without being labelled a bigot.
What about something like university Rugby? I think serious injury is more likely.
Possibly, equally rugby's a sport where bigs and littles often come into unequal contact. I guess you could have an even bigger big but by the same token, should rugby put a limit on size irrespective of sex/gender.
I agree, but its not fair under the current rules.
Define 'fair' - because if fair means 'within' the rules then of course it's fair. You think the rules are wrong (and I don't disagree) but that's a different thing.
A few facts might not go amiss. In elite athletes the incidence of XY is about 140 times the general population. That lifts it to about the same as ginger hair. This publication was used to try and define thresholds for testosterone levels, apecifically for XY and notably Casta. The quality of the analysis is questionable, but incidence is not
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/11/4328/2836760
What do I think about competition as trans? Well it appears that a lifetime of doping on testosterone may confer some performance advantage, even after medical castration. This should not come as a surprise. One would see the same with other abuses such as EPO and HGH. I therefore have difficulty with the masters result I would have no difficulty with a competition of trans vs. other medical castrations (prostate cancer is a good example), and no issue with a prepubescent male to female trans taking hormone blockade since they have not experienced the benefits of testosterone during puberty (and vice versa but less likely). physiologically, a long period of testosterone abuse in a biologically female athlete would be frowned upon in just the same way.
in road racing competition there is an age adjustment for gender, such that women can race a category down to men they race for different points I’ve seen that as a 50-yo Cat 2, I’m competitive with Cat 1 women of all ages, but probably at or below an Elite. In time trialling there are standard adjustments for age and gender, but the endpoint is objective (unassisted speed). For track I’d look at the road racing option instead
The issue of safety is not one I'd considered but in reality is actually far more important than 'fairness' if I think about it.
Imagine a boxing match. Sure the weight categories would even things out but it would still be a concern. Worst case scenario would be at heavy weight where weight limit does not even come into it.
I think only solution is categorise by sex at birth, and if need be a separate category(s) for those that don't feel they can compete in those categories. Classed in same way as para sports perhaps.
I'm sure people will shout discrimination etc etc but ultimately it's not life or death, just sport, and the key underpinning of sport is that it should be fair. Banning trans from competing in certain categories isn't great, in an ideal world it wouldn't be required, but let's face it its not as if its imposing Rosa parks levels of injustice on members of society.
What about something like university Rugby? I think serious injury is more likely.
There's already a difference between forwards and backs, and i'm not sure that size is a deciding factor when it comes to injury. But what's the alternative? How can you identify trans people with a 100% success rate? What about intersex? Are you going to make them take a chromosome test before they can compete? What if she's just a big woman? Seems pretty insulting and open to a lot of problems TBH...
Elite level there's money involved, and that changes everything.
Imagine a boxing match.
How about MMA?
Google Fallon Fox.
I played women's rugby at university. At 5'8' and (back then) about 11 stone, I was one of the taller/larger players and played in the second row. The front line of the scrum was filled by larger women but, to be blunt, they were fat, not muscular.
Hannah Mouncey, the transgender Aussie rules football player is 6 feet tall and 100kg (so almost 16 stone).
There’s already a difference between forwards and backs, and i’m not sure that size is a deciding factor when it comes to injury. But what’s the alternative? How can you identify trans people with a 100% success rate? What about intersex? Are you going to make them take a chromosome test before they can compete? What if she’s just a big woman? Seems pretty insulting and open to a lot of problems TBH…
Elite level there’s money involved, and that changes everything.
Agree that this level here of (elite) amateur sport is where it doesn't really matter too much at the end of the day, the rules should err on the side of maximum inclusivity. This current example is pretty polarising, in an already severely polarised debate, but most will be more reasonable. UCI women's masters track sprint - everyone's a grown up, it's a high level but still racing for themselves really, and is well-equipped to deal - witness Sarah Fader's untoppable response to the bogosity of Mckinnon's win.
Kids sports, though, that's a different story and I don't think you can just say leave it as there's no money involved and it's just children legging it round a bit of grass or whatever. That is self-evidently the future of women's sport and young kids aren't equipped to reason their way round the fact a MtF boy just crushed the race. Some more forthright regulation will be needed but God knows what that will be and how it can attempt to be even-handed.
witness Sarah Fader’s untoppable response to the bogosity of Mckinnon’s win
You know McKinnon has grassed up Fader* and Wagner to USA cycling?
https://twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/status/1053089859894689793
Dr. Rachel McKinnon
@rachelvmckinnon
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I'm not sure how @usacycling could NOT treat their behavior as violating this policy."All cycling participants are entitled to respectful treatment at all times during any sport oriented activity."
Withdrawing in protest over my being trans is inherently DISrespectful.
*Fader, who has dedicated her life to the sport.
It seems McKinnon want's subservience, not respect.
Doubt she's going to win many friends with that approach. She is entitled to compete however her fellow competitors are equally entitled to not like it.
If I'd trained all my life only to miss out on being a world champ in such circumstances I'd be miffed as well. Probably wouldn't have withdrawn however, but I do feel for the girl who got silver.
Some of the responses are pretty brutal but not sure she should be surprised by that
She is entitled
Damn right she is. Not doing the bigger cause any favours at all IMO.
Define ‘fair’ – because if fair means ‘within’ the rules then of course it’s fair
Fair means a contest on an even footing, of course its fair within the rules, the rules are wrong, and not fair.
Ps I have read her twitter feed, jeepers, she ain't helping no-one and is very entitled.
The world is ****ed, it is developments like this that are driving the right wing, Trump, brexit the rest, Breitbart is loving this. If it cannot be discussed without people being vilified for their opinions then those people will become entrenched.
It might be nice and fluffy and good for the psychology of people with gender dysphoria to be accepted as the gender they feel they should be, but its not reality for everyone else to pretend she is female. She may well be woman gender, but she is not a member of the female sex. We need to be sensible about this.
People should have the right to decide their gender, the right of anyone to marry or have sex with whoever consents, the right for people to wear and do as they please as long as it harms no on else.
The workplace needs to be equalised.
All of these things are about actually ignoring peoples sex and gender, which aside from personal relationships is something I have always aspired to do, despite being programmed not to (and hence failing often).
But as someone else said, this does harm other people, people who have trained long to get to their position. Her crowing about her victory and trying to take down those who don't feel right about it does not feel like equality to me, and there is a certain amount of hubris.
It seems McKinnon want’s subservience, not respect.
And a dollop of attention on top.
Apologies if I've missed it, but did McKinnon have any sort of comparable results (hopefully avoided the ''track record" pun) before starting racing as a woman?
Whilst I don't imagine anyone would go through everything involved for a tinpot medal or two it would seem all that is stopping me (or many other middlemarkers) in Time Trials from winning the fastest woman prize is 'self identifying' as such...... although if I did I'd like to think I'd be a bit less of a bad winner than appears the case here.
No answers, but can't see how equality at all costs can be good for anyone
RM: My sport background is in badminton. I moved to Charleston, South Carolina, to take up my job at the College of Charleston and there isn’t any elite badminton down here. I needed a new sport. I wasn’t good at running and I took spin classes and really fell in love with cycling and decided on a whim to buy a bike. I started racing on the road and turned out I was actually good at it, much better than I was at badminton. I raced on the road for three years, raced all over America and in Canada.
...
I was a road for three years and have raced on the track for the last year.
She doesn't mention whether this was before or after identifying as or becoming a woman though.
Right now she's just acting like a bully and is doing her cause no favours whatsoever.
Is there anyone that supports her point of view?
Is there anyone that supports her point of view?
Yes, no one knows really how many they are, but they are very loud and vocal and have policy makers listening to them all over the place. Speak against them at your peril.
I will be honest, I've read back over my posts and some of the others, and whilst I don't regret what I said and I still agree with my own sentiment, I feel it's not really that important.
This may be because I have discovered that I may be seen as being on the same team as Hatie Vomit Face Plopkins, which is quite disturbing.
Her tweet is here, edited link as I don't want to actually increase her reach as it were.
OLDBAGTWEETSHERE****ter.com/KTHopkins/status/1051522609677029377
> 2) The Olympic Committee recently changed their guidelines to not ask for sex but the amount of testosterone in blood. They reduced the limit to (I think) 5 nmol/l. It’s very possible for women with XX chromosomes to be around this level of testosterone. People suffering with PCOS are often around this level and that’s not even considered an intersex condition.
That was the point. The level was set based on the maximum level of a non-intersex woman, albeit one with PCOS.
It's by the way not true that 5nmol/l is a common level. The max normal range is 2 nmol/l. Anything above 2 nmol/l you could be suffering all kinds of complciations from hirsutism to infertility, quite possibly requiring medication even with PCOS, 5 nmol/l would be an extreme level associated not with elite athletes but more likely with obesity.
The median female athlete has testosterone around 0.6 nmol/l.
> But how many Caster Semenya are there and how many have there ever been? It’s almost statistically irrelevant. She is a genetic anomaly as much as Michael Phelps is and as such should be allowed to compete on level terms with other women. History will record the facts.
Not really. Semenya has XY chromosomes. This is not comparable to, say, 'being extraordinarily tall'. Semenya was raised as a girl because of a genetic disorder (normal male levels of testosterone, but no DHT) resulting in ambiguous/female genitals. However being the possessor of testicles Semenya produces testosterone in the normal male range.
