Could be an interesting development going forward
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/15/trans-woman-rachel-mckinnon-cycling-world-championship/
My wife reports outcry on Mumsnet, and how there's a call for boycotts
There is no longer any point in encouraging our daughters to take part in competitive sport.
I remember the days when the Klinefelter syndrome issue came to light. Klinefelter is where the person carries XXY chromosomes. I can't remember the female athlete in the 80/90's who was suspended, and athletes are still being suspended now for it.
I can see why there are calls bans etc as biologically, trans are not their chosen sex, so will need a judgement ruling to close down the arguments.
There is a lot of it out there from recently. Mountain biker in NZ (I think?), Aussie footballer, MMA fighter in USA, track and field in USA schools, weight lifting, American football etc etc.
It needs to be looked at in a fair and consistent manner free from fear of reprisals from those that may be affected.
True, but would Philippa York have raced as Philippa rather than Robert Millar if the world had been like it is now?
apologies for linking to the telegraph but similarities.
In McKinnon’s native Canada, trans students are now able to compete on teams which are consistent with their gender identity, after a governing organisation changed its rules last month.The move means that trans students in 56 third-level institutions in Canada are now allowed to play as the gender that they identify as, without getting hormone therapy.
That's just stupidity, and in that case, I agree with the statement below.
There is no longer any point in encouraging our daughters to take part in competitive sport.
Unless your daughter went through puberty as your son...
Help yourselves...
It's not just sport that's affected. Where do you imprison a rapist born male who identifies as a woman?
Seems some women aren't happy with the direction we are taking.
You have Nathalie van Gogh riding in the dutch ladies elite peleton since a couple of years.
Nothing new, Michelle Dumaresq a trans gender woman won the MTB DH Master world champs in Sun Peaks in 2006, Brit, Petra Wiltshire was 2nd and a bit un-happy.
Where do you imprison a rapist born male who identifies as a woman?
Recent one along those lines https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838
Ubelievable.
It is a difficult subject. and no matter what decisions are made "some" people are going to be upset. The authorities need to make balanced judgments on a case by case basis, while respecting the athlete they are making a judgment on. There is a lot of noise on the subject that is just driven by bigotry, but there are some valid objections also.
Caster Semenya was treated horribly by the authorities, iirc the ausi rules footballer last year who was not allowed to play on female teams actually thanked the authorities for the way they handled the process.
The challenge is, as always simple to ask and much more difficult to answer. The question is - "define "female"".
A conversation made more difficult when those trying to have it need to appeal to be allowed to.
Its horribly difficult to know what's right in these situations. My feeling is that the mens class should be the default open class. The women's group should only include women who can be deemed "medically" women, no advantage should be gained as a result of being transgender. Deciding the criteria for who qualifies as a woman is the problem. Political niceties shouldn't come into it, it should purely be a medical, performance decision.
Sports should be based on sex not what gender you associate with. This shouldn’t really be a hard issue to deal with.
From the interview linked:
"VN: Do you feel like you have an unfair advantage because you are a transgender athlete?
Rachel McKinnon: No, absolutely not. If you look at my results at Canadian nationals, in the 500 I was like eighth place (editor: Dr. McKinnon has always competed in the female category). At masters worlds, for the 500 I was a very disappointing fourth. In the Keirin at Canadian nationals, I was fourth."
So Rachel wouldn't have done very well at all in the male category by the sound of it.
The only way to determine gender is to go curtain shopping.
If you can stand being in the shop more than 5 minutes you are definitely a lady.
Sports should be based on sex not what gender you associate with. This shouldn’t really be a hard issue to deal with.
@poah, that's a fair and understandable statement. So define "sex", or specifically define "female". Trust me when I say it's nowhere near as easy as you may think or hope.
Sports should be based on sex not what gender you associate with. This shouldn’t really be a hard issue to deal with.
+1
Sports should be based on sex not what gender you associate with. This shouldn’t really be a hard issue to deal with.
Agree. Just stream athletes on genetics. If required, rename the events to the "XX" and "XY" categories and maybe an 'other' for people who genetically don't fit into either.
Not perfect, but anything else requires a tight definition of something that can't be tightly defined. (Although zippykona gets close.)
The trouble with that idea is you're telling people who identify as male or female that they're not and they're something that isn't either. I can't see that being a tasty pill to swallow.
An interesting debate and one that will go on for some time. I suspect until everyone can accept these things, there will be those who just won't be able to accept it.
I suspect until everyone can accept these things, there will be those who just won’t be able to accept it.
Hmm, I think you are probably right there bigyinn 😉
It's a really interesting issue and deceptively complicated.
Personally I'd err on the side of utilitarianism and favour the rights of the majority to a potentially fairer contest - an approach which the philosophy professor in question would surely understand.
However I understand some may perceive "transphobia" in that stance, purely because others would say similar things from a position of genuine prejudice.
Just wondering, but even if somebody is artificially limited in their testosterone, would they not still carry the competitive advantage of having previously trained with higher levels? A bit like the claimed residual benefit that reformed dopers retain?
Incredible that as a professor on the subject the best reply to that question she could come up with was basically.. 'no i dont think i have an advantage because sometimes i dont win'.
I dont really believe she doesnt realise her obvious advantage over the other competitors.
Sure Mr Tyson... as long as your test levels hit the target on the day we test you youre grand. Box the face off em and we'll all cheer you on.
And always with the transphobia card!!
Couldnt give a bollox love, fill your boots.. we just want level playing field.
Well, I reckon it’s easy.
Sports should be based on sex not what gender you associate with. This shouldn’t really be a hard issue to deal with.
This + 1
Although I’d qualify that with Sex as born with and for competition as an Athlete.
Tricky, yes. Certainly because now transgender can be applied in Law as being gender you are currently occupying.
But keep it simple, for Athletic competition anyway.
This + 1
Although I’d qualify that with Sex as born with and for competition as an Athlete.
Did you read the story linked at the bottom of the PinkNews piece in the OP?
The trans boy forced to wrestle girls because he was born as one? Is that fair if he's had loads of hormone therapy and wipes the floor with them?
So Rachel wouldn’t have done very well at all in the male category by the sound of it.
I thought that seemed like a spectacularly bad argument to make too. I'm sure I wouldn't beat elite women in any sport, but thanks to straight white male privilege it's not an issue.
Maybe classify it as a disability (is there a more politically correct way of saying that?) and put it into the Paralympics. Or move the para-sport into the main Olympics which makes more sense. The closest example I can think of is wheelchair marathon times aren't compared to the able bodied times and are significantly quicker. Also neatly solves the hormone level issue, trans men/women can compete together, just categorise based on the level either natural or medicated.
So define “sex”, or specifically define “female”. Trust me when I say it’s nowhere near as easy as you may think or hope.
Sex is a biological function of your dna wither you identify as a man or woman. The only issue would be if you have a rare genetic condition.
Sex is a biological function of your dna wither you identify as a man or woman. The only issue would be if you have a rare genetic condition.
Erm - the incidence of intersex conditions is a *lot* higher than you seem to realise. It's almost as prevalent as ginger hair...
Rachel
The trouble with that idea is you’re telling people who identify as male or female that they’re not and they’re something that isn’t either. I can’t see that being a tasty pill to swallow.
I have to agree that whilst I don't consider myself to be anti-trans, the issue of sporting categories is more complex - it's certainly in another league from "what prison do you send someone to" (what prison would you send a woman convicted of sexually assaulting a woman to FFS, not hard to answer) or what bog should someone use (literally WGAF?).
I think in a world where one can live as transgender, and a lot of people do, with significant mental health benefits, it is not right to simply say it has to be genetic based, but there may be arguments against trans athletes in order to have a level playing field.
I'm not sure of the solution, I suspect if wider society had less gender stereotypes then people may find themselves more comfortable with their own gender, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
Erm – the incidence of intersex conditions is a *lot* higher than you seem to realise. It’s almost as prevalent as ginger hair…
That might be true for most people but given my education and the fact my aunt had tuners I would disagree with your preposition. Red hair is 1-2% of the world population but is obviously higher in certain regions. That is significantly more common than XXY for example.
i married a redhead too 😉
Just stream athletes on genetics. If required, rename the events to the “XX” and “XY” categories and maybe an ‘other’ for people who genetically don’t fit into either.
The trouble with that idea is you’re telling people who identify as male or female that they’re not and they’re something that isn’t either.
Assuming you are replying to me, sorry I wasn't clear. I'm saying stop grouping people according to sex/gender all together. Instead group them purely according to their genetics and use the genetic label to describe them. So XX athletes and XY athletes. You're not making any claim about gender or sex whatsoever whilst still grouping people according to their athletic potential. It completely sidesteps the whole problem of having to pigeon hole people in a sex or gender.
People with genetic disorders might cause some head scratching but they probably already do in this context.
Where do you imprison a rapist born male who identifies as a woman?
Recent one along those lines https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838/a >
My example wasn't randomly chosen. 😉
I have to agree that whilst I don’t consider myself to be anti-trans, the issue of sporting categories is more complex – it’s certainly in another league from “what prison do you send someone to” (what prison would you send a woman convicted of sexually assaulting a woman to FFS, not hard to answer)
Genuine question: did you consciously change "rape" in my example to "sexual assault" In your reply?
I wish it was as easy as the experts make out. It isn't. I am father to a gender dysphoric 12 yo, and if anyone thinks athletes choose this path as a way to easy medals, you haven't a clue. What class of sport to play is so far down the list it doesn't register. Certainly nowhere composed to how to deal with the bulliying at school, the nonacceptance by grandparents, the depression, the suicidal thoughts, the cost of counselling because camhs is so underfunded there's a 6mo wait unless they are actually self harming.....
I agree conceptually with the idea that we need to look at a means for all nonbinary athletes to compete on a level basis, but as it stands she ^ competes against women, and works ****ing hard to do so. The undercurrent from some quarters that this is a quick and easy way to success is so far wide of the mark I'm not even angry, just sad.
This + 1
Although I’d qualify that with Sex as born with and for competition as an Athlete.
Did you read the story linked at the bottom of the PinkNews piece in the OP?
The trans boy forced to wrestle girls because he was born as one? Is that fair if he’s had loads of hormone therapy and wipes the floor with them?
No, this is the internet and this is a forum.
Why would I read anything, oh wait.. I read your post and still stand by what I originally posted.
HTHs.
Wait, what do You think..?
Oh, hang on.. I’m not sure I’ll agree with you and you haven’t posted it yet..
Big deal.
So, back to the original point..
“Although I’d qualify that with the Sex a born with and for competition as an Athlete”
Just in case you didn’t understand my original post.
I don't think there ever has or is ever going to be a 'standard version' of a trans person, especially so under self id. That's why the trend for universities and schools allowing anyone to play and compete as the gender they choose (with no other caveats) is the wrong way to go IMHO. It's so wrong in fact, I question the motivations of those campaigning for it and making these decisions, and whether or not they should be allowed anywhere near schols and young people in the first place.
At national and international level sports where they currently have rules about this, what are they going to do when the crop of youngsters come out of the schools and university programmes where they can compete in whatever category they like? The pressure and lobbying will be so great on the governing bodies that I think womens sports will be destroyed within a generation if it isn't halted now to allow for proper non-hysterical debate.
Sorry Bikebuoy, you've lost me there.
Rene59 -
I think womens sports will be destroyed within a generation
What was that about non-hysterical debate?
Aye, but I never said I'd be the one debating!
Sports should be based on sex not what gender you associate with. This shouldn’t really be a hard issue to deal with.
How are you defining "sex"?
Have a wee search on the internet and you'll find some good articles explaining just how complicated this is. Once you get into intersexuality, there are a myriad of different syndromes and conditions where people don't fall into clear gender categories of male and female. There have already been a lot of issues raised in women's athletics because of this, with several top athletes probably falling into the intersex category.
I don't think there is a simple solution to the issue at all. As mentioned above, some athletes are now being required to take medication to lower their natural testosterone levels, but this seems ethically and medically dubious to me. It almost feels like you have to do away with gender classification and compete in classes based on testosterone level, like boxing weight categories.
I suppose the way to see how big a deal it is and how much of a distortion it makes to female sporting results would be to look at it mathematically from a broad picture rather looking at individuals.
Look at the percentage of top athletes (say world top 100) in a range of sports and work out the percentage of them that are transsexual. Compare that to the general populous of the same age demographic and the same nation distribution. If they are appreciably more in the elite sport sample then you have a problem.
Look at the percentage of athletes that make it to the top (say top 100 again) of both male and female sport that are transsexual. If it is appreciably more in female than male sport then you have a problem.
If being transsexual has no benefit in female sport then there should be no relationship between good at sport and being transsexual. Map the world rankings of transsexual athletes and turn into percentiles of participants. If they are randomly distributed through the ability level then no problem but if they cluster near the top of the rankings then you do.
Surely there is an advantage and it only works one way in sports. ie you're not going to get a trans male competing on a level in the mens classes no matter how much testosterone they take as they'll almost certainly still be at a physiological disadvantage in the same way Rachel McKinnon is at a physical advantage. Lets face it she certainly doesn't look like any kind of athlete in that picture and she's significantly bigger (taller/heavier) than either of the others on the podium.
I'd say it's simply not fair but it seems that's not an acceptable reason to stop it happening, because whatever. . .
