Wow!
Exactly what sort of RAD lines do you guys ride to need a reach 4" longer than the bike that just won Rampage under it's 6ft1" pilot?
Can you post pics, vids, Strava etc for us to see?
100% serious question BTW.
Have we all stopped riding our X2 equipped Geometrons on the advice of Fox? Mine has been hammered for the 9 months I have had it here in the Lakes and up in Scotland but is showing no signs whatsoever of exploding!
Pretty strange to suddenly realise they can explode and fairly sickening that Fox have issued this statement but failed to supply a solution. Seems like Mojo found out the same way we did, which is pretty poor. It's a very expensive item for Fox not to be offering an immediate fix or replacement. Hopefully a quick fix will mean we can use them with confidence again.
noncycler - Member
Wow!
Exactly what sort of RAD lines do you guys ride to need a reach 4" longer than the bike that just won Rampage under it's 6ft1" pilot?Can you post pics, vids, Strava etc for us to see?
100% serious question BTW.
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
I rode this today mate.....on a 29er, really made the trails feel alive, but with I was on a boost equipped 27.5+ mainly for vertical compliance.....
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Chainline cheers fella!
Thanks for the Rampage spoiler in a totally unrelated thread - I'm only halfway through watching it FFS.
Duir, I don't the no so.if I wasn't somewhat banged up from a bit of an off in the Pyrenees last week riding with Mr Porter I would certainly be riding my X2 equipped Geometron.
Totally agree the announcement and method was a bit poor. Mojo found out the same way we did social media and pink bike.
I've never seen a 250 psi max sticker on any of the X2 shocks i've seen since they came out !
Mine says max 300psi so apparently could blow up. Can't see it happening though, I run 4 spacers and 210psi. It seems to me to be a really reliable, low maintenance shock that just works and is perfect for the Geometron.
Bet this is a bloody nightmare for Mojo with 100 calls a day and no idea what to tell people!
noncycler, its not about needing to be more rad as such. It works differently. its about making the bike work as a whole and it being fast, flexible and forgiving. I guess there could be aspects of rampage that it may not suit, although getting down that stuff in control it could help! The G19 has a little less reach than the G16 due to it's purpose and anticipated steepness of tracks.
I know its custom geo but looks like the Robot bike people are pushing in a similar direction to the Geometron [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/robot-bike-co-r160-custom-review-2016.html ]http://www.pinkbike.com/news/robot-bike-co-r160-custom-review-2016.html[/url]
That is so awesome.
That robot bike is the beanz !
Well - that's Paul Aston, who reviewed the Geometron for PinkBike, and he's had that Robot frame built to more or less the same geometry.
It's incredibly expensive though, and even with carbon 24 spoke wheels (no thanks) and a Pike, it's still 30 lbs - I'm not sure there's much of weight benefit to the deign, whatever you save in weight with the carbon you lose with the titanium.
Yeah, I posted before reading the whole article and he does mention that he's based it on the Geometron but also says the bike will have to go back so hopefully others will review the bike and comment on its geometry.
Low weight is over rated and having experience of printed Titanium I can believe a healthy chunk of that cost is on the brand not the materials.
Paul is tall and wanted the 29er GeoMetron so I am surprised he has built such a small bike (smaller than mine anyway) , although there wasn't the XL and XXL when he commissioned it and so he wouldn't know if even bigger was better.
Also surprised he's gone that steep on the 27.5, it feels much better below 63deg, between 61 and 62deg is the sweet spot for the trail bike with tuning for personal preference using offset I think. The 2016 GeoMetron is only 63.5 with the reference 170mm fork a2c.
If there is one thing I've learned over the last 18months its that it is not just the geo that makes the difference, you just cant take out the suspension and how it's balanced/tuned in my experience over the last year and whilst anti squat plays a part I mean more how the setup works dynamically together.
I had a torrid time in the Pyrenees the other week for the first day and a half while I got my bike set up for the terrain as it was so different to that I ride in the UK, but once it was, it was an astonishing difference to ride. Of course it helps that I was riding with CP but much to do with what I have learned over the last 18months about setup.
I love that in this thread 63.5 is considered steep for a head angle. I really need to get the offset bushings in my bike which should bring it down to about 65 / 65.5 on a 29er and see how that rides.
Also got a Sussmybike on order so hopefully will be able to get some better suspension setup, albeit a long way from a custom job from Mojo but I'm not in the league or really needing that.
I had a torrid time in the Pyrenees the other week for the first day and a half while I got my bike set up for the terrain as it was so different to that I ride in the UK, but once it was, it was an astonishing difference to ride. Of course it helps that I was riding with CP but much to do with what I have learned over the last 18months about setup.
So you had Mr Porter with you and have been 'into' suspension setup for the past 18 months and it still took you 1.5 days to get the bike to set up properly? Doesn't sound ideal. There's a lot to be said for K.I.S.S 😆
thepodge - Member
Also got a Sussmybike on order
Please share your thoughts on this once you have got your hands on it.
thepodge - MemberLow weight is over rated and having experience of printed Titanium I can believe a healthy chunk of that cost is on the brand not the materials.
TBH it's not so much materials as opportunity cost- unless Renishaws think it's worthwhile for PR like they did with Charge and Empire, they'll be expecting the same rates as they get for making bits of planes and spaceships.
Partly perhaps but a friend of mine had some titanium lugs made and I was positively surprised at the cost
Euro,
It was a lot to do with circumstances and a painful experience with CB Mallet (wrong terrain and time to try them out coming from Shimano!) There was no time to make the changes during the day so had to do it post days riding and then tweaks on day 2. Chris and I also disagreed slightly on the issue 😉
CP was mainly focussed on smashing the trails and the terrain, he was loving the 27.5/29er setup it it's fair to say....
G13 29ers due in soon...Tim at Mojo is putting the miles in on the first bike and getting the DPS tuned in.
Chainline.
Just emailed you.
Got it Stu, on it.
I must say I'm really looking forwards to trying one of these out.
I've even sold some niche singlespeed tat to make room in the garage in case I like it enough to buy one.
Thread resurrection....
X-Longest Nicolai G13 with 36s up front rather than 34s and the piggyback shock. Thoughts from the demo are carried through into this bike which is a bit of a relief given the changes between the mojo test bike and this production variant. It climbs incredibly well, the steep seat tube and long stays make controlling the slack front end a non-event. Downhill it’s brilliant. At a smidge over 6ft 3 it’s the first full sus bike that truly feels like it fits. There’s a much bigger sweet spot where I can move my weight around without feeling like I’m hanging way over the back or about to be pitched over the front. I also feel a lot happier when the back is sliding around on corners, it’s actually fun to drift rather than being panic stations. That all said where it really surprised me is how composed it was when it gets rough. I’m not sure if that’s the suspension, the geometry or a combination of both; although I suspect it is mainly the geometry given I set the suspension up very quickly as I didn’t have time to meet up with the man from mojo before riding. Particularly noticeable going into one section which is quite narrow, steep ish and littered with deep braking ruts. It was easily the fastest I’d ever ridden through the section and the bike felt completely composed compared to a mate on his 160mm Commencal who commented that he felt as if he was on the limit. Anyhoo, I'm happy as I suppose anybody would be having just shelled a load of money on a bike and ridden it for the first time! Always wanted a Nicolai. Gratuitous pics below, excuse the front brake hose and state of the grass, I was desperate to get out for a ride.
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http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/steveomain/Bike%20Pics/29C9EDED-8F57-4A82-B981-2445B41C5596_zpseafkf04j.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
That looks amazing Gotama, no wonder you are pleased! 8)
Could I ask which size it is as doesn't actually look that big! Is it an XL or a XXL?
Also what are the changes between the mojo test bike and the production one? Sorry if it's been mentioned in the thread before, I've been following it from the start but some of it has faded from my aging memory now. 😳
That is fantastic and Imlove the wheels too. Mega jealous
Sooo happy you're happy Gotama. It does indeed just look right. I need to pick mine up and put it together. First job will be an angleset 😉
Are you running 150mm up front Gotama?
I think Stu swung a leg over mine last week at Mojo too.
Stompweaver - It's the XL or X-Longest in mojo terminology. It definitely looks in proportion with the 29er wheels. The Mojo test 29er was a 150mm bike and the sizing differed in that it was a Longest with the reach around 520 (I think) and a slightly slacker head angle which put the wheelbase roughly the same as this one. My X-Longest has a reach of 530mm and a 64 degree head angle. So whilst a size smaller in labelling the test bike was only marginally smaller in numbers (I think!). It was the travel difference and BB height which were the biggest changes. If that doesn't make sense say and i'll try again!
Chainline - No, after a chat with Toby I stuck with the 140mm setting but with a 10mm bigger negative air spring. I'm due to catch up with him soon to get the final settings for the shock and fork as he's promised to work some of his magic. Thanks again for your help with this; much appreicated.
Very nice, you say the Mojo test bike was 150mm but not how much travel this is, I assume you are referring to the rear?
Should be 133mm rear thepodge.
Thanks for the reply Gotama, it makes perfect sense. I have been thinking about a Geometron/Nicolai for a while. I've had an Enduro 29er for the last couple of years and a Stumpjumper 29er before that and I can't see me ever going back to smaller wheels. I love the Enduro but it's always felt on the small side (465mm reach) as I am 6' 2" and have short legs and long torso for my height. I've got the 650b shock yoke on it which slackens it off and drops the BB a bit but it could do with being slacker still. Compared to my DH bike it feels very nervous and skittish.
I think I'd go for the Geometron over the Nicolai for the extra travel at the back. You can never have too much skill compensation... 😉 Is there a particular reason that you chose the G13 over the Geometron?
Interesting stuff, enjoy your new bike 😀
Chainline I thought the Geometron 29er was 150mm rear travel?
Ignore me.
Chainline will no doubt correct me if I’m wrong but the G series produced by Nicolai are the Geometron bikes. G13 is the 29, G16 is the 650b and G19 is the downhill bike. Mine certainly has Geometron printed in pretty large lettering on the seat stays. Anything else is special order and I believe can still be done through Mojo.
Podge – 140mm front, 133mm rear although lifting it to 150mm without any other jiggery pokery is apparently not an issue as you would expect.
Stompweaver – 95% of my riding is round surrey hills which is not exactly rough. My Banshee Prime was fine travel wise (135mm rear) in the Alps last summer (riding with guys on Specialized Enduro 650b and YT Capra) but at the same time my riding is more geared towards natural alpine singletrack (the enduro race stages for example) rather than smashing out park laps with big jumps all day. Geometry makes a massive difference though. I’ve had a pretty long Swarf Spline (490mm reach) that I’ve been riding for a while now and the difference in how that feels at speed over the rough stuff is remarkable. Geometron works to the same principle. I truly believe that it’s not the travel per se, it’s the design around the travel. I can’t stand the aforementioned Enduro (no offence intended) as it just feels way too short in reach (2015 model) even in XL, my mate enjoys it though. It’s personal preference but I can’t see any downside to the longer bike apart from perhaps if you like hitting a lot of jumps and getting stylish in the air where I assume it is harder to move the bike into whatever funky shape you’re looking for. That’s not my riding though so I can’t really comment. You do have to muscle the bike around more in the corners but it’s something you get used to very quickly in my experience. All I would say is that if you’re looking to spend on a new frame, don’t discount the Geometrons from the numbers, it’s definitely worth a ride and they’re really accommodating in sorting something out.
I thought the G series were Nicolai's own version of the Geometron philosophy not direct copies.
Fairly sure Chainline mentioned something about different seat angles and slightly different pivot placement for suspension dynamics.
It can be confusing..
G series is Nicolai's 'version' of the GeoMetron.
They were the same but then Mojo proposed some changes to this years models to make everything standard without 'Mojo' specials. Nicolai weren't sure about going that far immediately on the G16, G13 or G19 versions.
So the Mojo GeoMetron G16 (27.5) is different from Nicolai's version, it is a specific Mojo version. It is slacker, has a different BB set up.
The G13, what Gotama has, is a standard Nicolai bike, still derived directly from the GeoMetron.
The GeoMetron 29er, as produced originally by Chris is longer travel but is a custom order, it is not the same as the G13. It is slacker (the same as the std GeoMetron essentially) and 155mm rear travel and has a steeper seat angle being based entirely on the GeoMetron.
A really great, brave move by Nicolai this year, but not quite as brave as Mojo would have liked to have gone (I think there was as bit of a timing issue), perhaps understandably, the German market is still their main market and remains fairly conservative, customers there have however welcomed the GeoMetron (hence why they have gone this way across the range) but to go that far with the 29 immediately was clearly too far too soon...
So in summary the G13 is a stanard Nicolai. You can have a GeoMetron 29 as a custom order.
The Mojo GeoMetron G16 is a unique model. One way to tell is if it has Ion in the seat gusset as the moment that is a Nicolai version. If it says Mojo, then its specific to Mojo.
Currently looking how to allow the use of the front 29" wheel (which Chris likes so much on the GeoMetron) in the GeoMetron (of course with the 29er 160mm fork) but to retain the same key geometry of the 27.5 (with the 180mm fork). It is doable...
I've not tested mine with the 29 front yet (still a huge fan of the 27.5) but I will do. The paper numbers make interesting reading...
Thanks for the detailed replies Gotama and Chainline it clears things up completely.
I do love my Enduro but fully understand that loving/hating a bike is a purely personal thing so no offence taken when you say you don't like them Gotama. It definitely feels on the small side but back when I bought it it was one of the biggest XL's there was available. Plus it was my dream bike at the time so I guess I was never going to think badly of it! I wouldn't mind losing some rear travel as I rode all of the same stuff on the Stumpy (Wales, Peaks, Alps etc.) which was 135mm travel and it rarely felt out of it's depth. I live 5 minutes away from Cannock Chase so most of my riding is there and it isn't exactly the most challenging of places but Shropshire, Mid Wales and the Peaks aren't far from here either. My favoured riding is much the same i.e. natural trails rather than bike park stuff even on my DH bike. I'm pretty sure I have never managed a stylish looking jump in my life! 😆
Saying all that if I could have 155mm travel over 135mm on a bike that rode the same then I would. More is always better right? 😉 I'm guessing that there is a cost implication though and that the 'standard' G13 is cheaper.
I admit to being amazed how well received the Geometron geometry has been received in Germany given how short, steep and generally conservative their home market bikes have been up until relatively recently.
The mixed wheel size thing is intriguing, I can remember talking to Steve Jones about it at the FoD a while ago (which is where I got the idea for the 650b shock yoke) and later reading about it on the Dirt website. He thought the Enduro with that setup was a beast. For Chris to be so keen on it shows that it must be good. Give it a go Chainline it would be very interesting to see what a "normal" rider thinks of it. Not that I'm saying that you're not a good rider though!
Thanks again for taking time to advise, it is much appreciated.
stompweaver, I've had a few 29/27.5 setups on my rigid bikes and I like it.
The G13 is intended much more as a do it all bike than can nail DH but ultimately if it gets really gnarly it will get tougher.
As a go-to ride short or far on anything I think it's gonna be great. Can't wait to get mine. But I am also a tinkerer so will try the 29 front.
We also looked at the angles for dropping the 27.5 in the rear of the G13 and resetting the geo with a longer shock. I think that also works but it leaves the end result steeper than if you do it with a GeoMetron at 170mm rear and since the testing is still about pushing the limits it seems more sensible to focus on the GeoMetron version of that.
I want to try the G13 at sub 63HA. Based on the experiences we have so far, including Chris with the 29 front, it should steer even better and brings the SA back a bit too (but 0.5deg can be gained from 10mm of rail position and not everyone likes it very steep, as ever all different).
A nice -2 headset in there should go nicely...With that in and a 150mm fork it gives exactly the same trail, mechanical trail and flop values as my GeoMetron with -2 and 40's (Due to the 40's having 51mm offset, close to the 29 fork)
Of course it will feel different dynamically (which is the key thing here) as the 29 wheel has a different foot print on the trail, grips differently, I know from discussions with Chris it will feel different to turn it too, and his experiences with a different size rear wheel change things too for corner initiation but the static numbers are a good base to go on for steering feel.
I'll be watching your tinkering with interest Chainline. Does there come a point where it is too slack and if so have you and Chris found that limit yet?
Gotama, Yes definitely. about 59deg according to CP. Even more applicable for trail use. We both seem to have settled around the 61deg mark with 27.5 front.
Chris has approx 62 on his 29 front version of the GeoMetron (pretty sure he hasn't dropped offset bushes in (we both think 29 needs a higher BB than a 27.5 for complicated reasons mainly around flip flop cornering (you can't get away from greater gyroscopic inertia in the 29 but riding style etc etc all come into it) but also braking and related to BB drop and weight transfer (all theory)
With the big sizes XL and XXL you start to struggle a little to keep dropping HA with anglesets as the HT is already quite tall to accommodate the bigger riders the front can get too tall which may mean changing bar/stem but not always possible etc.... I'd find it slightly easier as I'm on a longest, but that's also to do with the fact Chris is using an XL but by conventional sizing would be on a L, at 6ft he hasn't got the upper body height of a 6'2" or 6'4" guy who wouldn't have the height issue.
So the upshot is there is definitely a limit. There is data for that limit for a 27.5 but not yet proper data for either a 29 front or the 29. I'll give it a go but can only go so far before compromises kick in a little around BB height. I've some idea's..
Has Chris come around to the 29er yet Chainline?
ION GPI in 29er/27.5er setup.
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Wookster not the full 29, but he is liking the 29 front, as long as it is suitably slack creating the right steering characteristics.
Difficulty is balancing bar height for him on the Xl, it would be easier on the L. We have some solutions for that though...
The other quandry is the fork, he would like longer travel to allow for a bigger neg chamber as on the 27.5 but not a solution for that yet. You can squeeze a 29 into the 40 and then have the flexibility to run 180mm but the bar height/BB height/reach becomes the constraint again.
i can feel a dedicated proto in my bones....
I don't get the issue with bar height, I mentioned this to CP at his Sheffield talk but I don't think he got what I was on about.
He was saying that low bars are good but you cannot get the bar low enough when using triple crown forks as the top of the stanchions are in the way.
If you were to machine custom fork yolks and turn the forks round but leave the axle in the same position so the steering axis remains the same then you'd get the stanchions out of the way and you could drop the bars.
Admittedly it'd look very odd (kind of like an old Girvin Vector) but it would prove the point.
Or just slap some Fox stickers on an upside down fork like the Manitou Dorado, this would give you the room for the wheel and I would imagine its not out of their skill set to retune one to get ride characteristics similar to a 40.
