Seen these in the flesh the other day. They are stunning/amazing, a lot of hard work from chris porter and the boys at one vision global racing. Good bunch of lads.
I'm slightly biased mind, as I have a geometron in the longest.
I have a little bias here too...
ION GPI reviewed by bikeradar: http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/nicolai-ion-gpi-the-gearbox-mtb-of-the-future-46472/
Thoughts?
Well I was there...I think it's a fair assessment by John, tho he struggled with the direction to move the gripshift which made it worse for him. I can change under a degree of load uphill now I'm used to it.
I would absolutely prefer a trigger. HE didn't bat an eyelid that it had a HA of 61deg and commented on how well it climbed. My std bike was struggling in the mud, the GPI was fine, I had a mud packed cassette. Easy enough to clear but the GPI just went in the garage after.
New batch of Geometrons should be in shortly with Mojo too..
I used to run an Alfine off road and adapted to the (supposed) inability to shift under load really quickly. As its an instant shift you only need the slightest pause and you're sorted. I suspect the gearbox is similar.
I thought that was a fascinating review. I think the gearbox is the "right" solution for the drivetrain of an off road bike (well, a suspension bike at least - it's less clear for hardtails), it's really just a question of whether there is enough investment/acceptance to break through the entrenched dominant position of the derailleur.
Chainline, taking into account the downsides of the gripshift, if you had to choose between normal geometron and GPI which would you choose?
Depends what I was doing I think longbearranger and how often I was riding. If you ride a lot its great as wear is tiny. If I was winching and plummeting, i.e. my local terrain was steep and/or rocky, again I would be happy to plump for the GPI even with the gripshift, as if you dont need to change whilst navigating technical terrain its awesome.
On more varied terrain, I prefer my std bike, it feels a little livelier with the higher anti squat, and th trigger just makes it so much easier to be in the right gear all the timer, but the GPI is by no means bad, its just so much more efficient at evening out the terrain it can be less fun on flatter stuff where the std bike feels 'poppy and it is harder to change gear a lot whilst braking, weight shifting, changing direction etc, things that are easy wioth a trigger.'
I have to say that a trigger shifter would make it a much harder decision.
It remains to be seen if Pinion or anyone else strives to make the gearbox more efficient and/or lighter That is an area they haven't focussed on much due to the market being touring and trekking where is less of a concern due to the already high weights carried around.
For me the weight is less of the issue, although lighter still would be nice, its more the high gear sense of drag when the extra transfer gear kicks in. Its barely noticeable in the low gears.
With the advent of di2, wonder how easy it would be to either adapt or come up with a similar system to give a trigger system
Sir HC....patience my child.....
With the advent of di2, wonder how easy it would be to either adapt or come up with a similar system to give a trigger system
Sir HC....patience my child.....
Watching this space with interest...
I wouldn't hold your breath too hard..they've been promising for a few years....they keep promising....
There are loads of DIY electric shifting vids on youtube, perhaps it needs someone from the outside to develop it for them.
It will be worth keeping an eye on Eurobike this year I reckon.....
I'd not seen this aftermarket Rohloff electronic shifty before -
http://www.edsanautomation.com.au/EdsanProducts.htm
Not cheap, not neat, not recommended for off road use.
Nicolai made up some triggers for the Pinion but the thumb pressure required to shift was just too high, it either needs some gearing at either/both ends or an electronic solution. I guess you could argue that electronic takes away a little of the fit and forget ethos but for touring you could charge with a dynamo, for mtb its not a big deal. The question has been why would they do anything when mtb is such a small market for them, perhaps with the advent of e-mtbikes (much as I hate them for everything except people with mobility restrictions) there could be more call..
Chainline,
Many thanks for your comprehensive and thoughtful reply on the merits of the gearbox - much appreciated. Lots for me to think about! I'm not looking to buy a Geometron right now (unfortunately), so have a little time to think things over properly and see what develops over the next year or so.
Cheers
Phil
simons_nicolai-uk - Member
I'd not seen this aftermarket Rohloff electronic shifty before -
> http://www.edsanautomation.com.au/EdsanProducts.htm
Not cheap, not neat, not recommended for off road use.
off topic, but from Simons link / dam yous ugly:
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Chainline: Di2 pinion. make it happen!
Wouldn't a relatively easy bodge be to use a heavy duty servo from a radio control model to pull the cables? Maybe mount it somewhere on the downtube.
I used to run an Alfine off road and adapted to the (supposed) inability to shift under load really quickly. As its an instant shift you only need the slightest pause and you're sorted. I suspect the gearbox is similar.
It is. I've started to think that there must be something wrong with my riding that I never find it an issue. I was on my 1x11 bike at the weekend and had far more trouble with the gears on that. The SRAM trigger never seems to be in the right place - needs a big reach to shift and I knock my thumb on it as well.
I think it depends on how you ride Simon, I find myself wanting to change whilst preparing to change direction or whilst braking in a straight line in preparation for either a corner or rise/descent, or whilst winding through trees on undulating terrain, in those instances moving my grip/position on the bars I find awkward. It's manageable but with a trigger I don't have to change anything except move my thumb.
As I get used to it, it is much less of an issue ,as I hope I have mentioned, but it still annoys me and is not ideal. Ze Germans have less of an issue as they brake mostly with the other hand!
I do this brake/shift thing on a normal bike by gently 'ghost' pedalling as I approach said corner, it should in theory be much easier as there's no need to pedal with the gearbox...
With the added momentum and publicity the GPI has generated I think if we are going to see the electronic trigger it's this year....
I know other (small specialists) are also looking at chain driven 'box solutions (that don't infringe Honda patents) Although you would think they wouldn't care or would licence any specific tech....
^^ could you not just run the shifter on the rear brake side, albeit reversing the shift direction which I imagine will be irritating until you get used to it.
Love Nicolai's and the idea of gearboxes (having not tried one) so watching this thread with interest.
Gearboxes are the future. They have to be. :0) Although I've had gripshift years ago but never really got on with it But...
^^ could you not just run the shifter on the rear brake side, albeit reversing the shift direction which I imagine will be irritating until you get used to it.
I often thought that an up shifter on the right and a down on the left might overcome the required extra pressure needed to operate the gearbox? I'd happily run two shifters again with a gearbox over one gripshift.
I often thought that an up shifter on the right and a down on the left
Has been done for Rohloff which is the same 'action'
https://www.cinq5.de/schaltsysteme/shiftr-fuer-flatbars/
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Shift action is too heavy. We looked at that.
Yes you could switch the shifter to the lefthand side without problem. In fact for some people who have used it the direction would be more intuitive, rotating rearward rather than forward for bigger gears. At least tow test riders struggled with rotate back for lower gears initially.
Chainline - (that don't infringe Honda patents)
I thought that was just a rear mech in a box, any ideas why they arent developing but still stopping others?
thepodge. It effectively was just that. A little more complex but that basically. Don't know why they stop others, they aren't in the market and I doubt they'd return.
If you take the mech out of the crud and out of harms way...you get most of the benefits; the wear would be much lower anyway and the action is fine, we now have a big gear range (50t low, 10 high and could have closer ration's, there is more room across the frame than on one side of a wheel...its very efficient, not massively expensive in theory, simple to fix, light overall. Implementation could be a challenge with different suspensions designs I guess..but it would tick a lot of boxes with the exception of perhaps 10s of thousands of miles of use without any maintenance,
Who knows what will happen...
I do this brake/shift thing on a normal bike by gently 'ghost' pedalling as I approach said corner, it should in theory be much easier as there's no need to pedal with the gearbox...
I was on the road bike today and realise I do exactly the same. But sometimes it's awkward - for me that's always been one of the big advantages of Rohloff/Pinion. Coming fast into a corner or the end of a descent you can keep yourpedals level, ankles and wrists dropped and brake as late as possible. Trying to ghost pedal stood up on a rough descent isn't ideal.
Only when you come out do you need to worry about shifting and can instantly drop as many gears as you need before you start pedalling.
Out of interest, is there any bike bag that could accommodate the Geometron frame without removing the forks?
I doubt the frame+forks would fit the Evoc or Biknd bags with the min 1260mm wheelbase.
I use an Evoc, no need to remove forks. two ways to do it.
Remove front brake and reverse forks. Remove derailleur and hanger.
MUCH easier is just undo front shock bolt, wrap shock in bubble wrap, lift swingarm to reduce length, fit in bag. No problem. I had a slackened longest in no problem like that.
Speaking of which I was testing a modified Longest at the weekend, spot on.
Longer Swingarm running a 222 shock for 175mm rear travel and a good curve. -1 on the head angle and the full 180mm fork as usual.
I loved it, was worried I wouldnt be able to move it around etc but no such problems, I could really load the front and get tons of grip, was great.
The rear set up allowed you to carry great speed through roots and chunder.
It's not such a great 'trail' bike as the std bike. But the idea is basiscally to allow you to either swop shocks (by flipping the chip to account for the length) Or we are also checking how the 222 feels with sufficient volume spacers to increase the progressiveness and reduce the travel to 155mm for normal use. Key is to see if it is possible to replicate the feel with the shorter length shock.
This setup allows you to set the bike up for either the alps or uplifted trips but then easily return it to being a normal everyday trail bike.
The longer travel version pedals just as well as the 155mm version when seated, but the softer initial travel is noticeable when honking out the saddle whereas the std bike is much firmer in that aspect, but thats expected and partly the point.
The longer swingarm will be available as an option. Something to consider of you do big alps trips or even if you are a very big guy.
How long does that make the back end? It's starting to sound like my Keewee ;o) though even that is getting a bit short and steep these days.
Brilliant. They looked at the Geometron and decided to make it longer.
Keep looking at the Geometron frame/fork package as my route to 650b - have a 26" Ion 16 that I love.....slightly worries that the Geometron would rob me of some of the regular bike's versatility. But it interests me more than pretty much any other frame out there right now... probably come down to a decision between the Geometron and standard Ion 16 27.5 in the end (when I eventually have the money.... always the fatal flaw)
Chainline - This setup allows you to set the bike up for either the alps or uplifted trips but then easily return it to being a normal everyday trail bike.
I'm a big fan of this bike but cant help feeling that its all a bit Bugatti Vayron when all a lot of us really need is a pimped out Vauxhall Corsa.
I've only taken the Geometron for a spin round a dark carpark but I'm not sure it could ever be called a "normal everyday trail bike" despite being normal than people think.
As mentioned above, as much as I like it, its well out of my price / skill range so I'm continuing my experiments with a long(ish) 130mm rear 65 HA 29er.
I get the same impression the podge, it seems to be designed to be ridden really fast and hard, and I wonder if for the average ( or sub average in my case!) MTBer it wouldn't be ridden at the level were its advantages would come to the forefront.
I can only say thePodge/Wookseter that your concern is not echoed by most users. Many of whom have ditched their second bike to just use the GeoMetron as an all rounder. It truly is, in my opinion of course. Most of the Demo's I have done have been on mixed terrain like at Cannock chase to demonstrate that point as the majority of people don't want as single purpose bike.
It's advantages come to the forefront whatever level you are. A point noted by one chap the other day I was riding with who said it was a bike that would really flatter a lesser rider as well as allow a fast rider to go faster. Basically it's incredibly forgiving at the limit, who's ever limit that is.
I am anything but a fast/good rider I assure you, but I like to push my limit without thinking that If I go too far I'll get bitten.
One thing thepodge is that a carpark test definitely doesn't do it justice for feel, the dynamic ride is very important.
Overall it just so happens that you can ride it really hard and fast if you are that kind of rider but I don't think it feels dead at slower speeds. Everyone is different though, hence the need to test it,
The standard bike is lively and playful and I feel pretty neutral handling.The head angle is much more for the feel of the steering and cornering not for stability, which I think many get hung up on.
The modified bike I rode, yes, its definitely for bigger stuff. The longer swingarm also makes it feel slightly different, but I'm confident when we put the short shock back in (Chris was riding a bike like this over the winter) it returns to feeling like the std bike.
Honorablegeorge, the 'they' was me....I asked for it, with a view to a dual purpose bike. I'm not getting any younger and do like to get out to the alps and places like that. A week of trail bashing is a little easier with a bit more travel...but I did not want to be restricted to that. So we talked about how we could get both worlds with minimum work in the same bike. The answer is a slightly longer swingarm (5mm) to allow the longer shock length, longer travel, but maintain all of the same geometry e.g. BB height, HA/SA etc.
I suspect, given the way things have progressed over the last year that there won't be a standard Ion in the future unless you order it especially; after riding the GeoMetron, all of the staff are riding various incarnations of other bikes, with different travel etc but using GeoMetron geometry principles...and I think the vast majority of sales have switched to the Geometron incarnation....
It's also possible to just buy the additional swingarm and swop between longer version and standard version. It isn't a hugely difficult job, but I think Mojo will also offer it as a service. It's a lot cheaper than having a spare downhill bike!
95% of my year I'll be using the standard bike (all be it with a slacker HA as I like how it corners/steers)
Popped into Mojo lunctime to get some bushes, spotted this in reception, so ****ing cool.
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[/img]| http://thumbsnap.com/YygsKqpo [/img]
Chainline - MemberHonorablegeorge, the 'they' was me....I asked for it, with a view to a dual purpose bike. I'm not getting any younger and do like to get out to the alps and places like that. A week of trail bashing is a little easier with a bit more travel...but I did not want to be restricted to that. So we talked about how we could get both worlds with minimum work in the same bike. The answer is a slightly longer swingarm (5mm) to allow the longer shock length, longer travel, but maintain all of the same geometry e.g. BB height, HA/SA etc.
I suspect, given the way things have progressed over the last year that there won't be a standard Ion in the future unless you order it especially; after riding the GeoMetron, all of the staff are riding various incarnations of other bikes, with different travel etc but using GeoMetron geometry principles...and I think the vast majority of sales have switched to the Geometron incarnation..
Cool... just the idea of someone taking such a long bike and askign for it to be made longer tickled me.
Yeah - if I do take the plunge, it'll be a case of phonign Mojo and getting their recommendations on sizing, and having a fork and frame/shock sent to me - not in the UK, so demo not really practical, and I'm unlikely to get much for my 26" Ion frame/forks/wheels, so it'll be an expensive upgrade.... I've always gone the trigger's broom route in the past, bit by bit as opposed to the big hit all at once.
What you say is encouraging though - so many folks liking the bike makes me less wary of just going for it.
[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/jack-readings-nicolai-geometron-dh-lourdes-dh-world-cup-2016.html ]Nicolai Geometron DH - Lourdes World Cup bike check[/url]
Absolutely awesome!!!
I've had a geometron since early december, in longest.
I'am 6'2 with orangutan arms so I've been told.
Its set up with the 180 fork and x2. did the deal with the mavic xl wheels as well. Its the first new bit of kit in 13 years I've splashed out on, normally second hand buying all the way.
I bloody love this bike, I can quite happily go out and do a gentle flowy xc ride with the girlfriend. But then go and ride a trail center ie afan, FOD, Brecfa. the bike climbs like a bloody goat, it is the oddest sensation when your going up hill and the bike just cruises up slippy muddy rooty tracks. Its certainly a bike you winch your way up. No problems with this talk of being to long to get round corners etc. The other week i rode the trails at FOD, then put the full face on and did the uplift in the afternoon. Then the following week went and rode at revolution bike park with a DH team, scared the crap out of me. I couldn't have asked for a different bike. Adjust a few settings on the shock and fork, away you go.
To be honest the bike makes you feel more confident, so hence I'm riding alot faster and smoother than I ever have. crashing more as well.
Also have to say I'm your average joe rider, full time job ride at the weekends when I can. Certainly not the best rider in my group of friends. Massively happy with the bike at the moment. But one of the main buying points was the backup from chris/mojo. They cant do enough to help, if thats before buying the bike or any small questions about setup after.
Love the idea that as chainline is doing you can play about with head angle, wheelbase in the future and not have to buy a new bike/frame.
Set it up for what ever riding you are doing and it will excel at any.
Nice summary Paul, nail on head for me.
This isn't helping. I'm at the "maybe if I sell the DH bike" stage right now. And I can do a cycle-to-work for the wheels and other bits. Meaning I only need to find about two grand.
There is one in the classifieds at a reduced price
Yeah, it's a "long" though, which is only about three feet longer than my current bike - I think for 6'1" I'd need "longer" for full effect. 🙂
honourablegeorge mail me, email in profile...and you will want Longest at 6'1"...I may be able to help you...
Thanks CL, reply sent.
*stares in awe at 520 reach*
I have a custom geometron that is a longest with a lower top tube and custom colours/decals. I am 6' and it feels spot on so at 6'1 definitely longest.
I would agree the geometron excels when ridden on the limit but that's a bit of a polarity because when on the limit it still feels totally stable and in control. However it's also a bike I can jump on for a spin too on those not so pinned days. It really does feel like a normal long slack bike to me but it's wierd how well it climbs which makes no sense on paper.
I am Lakes based and mainly ride big mountain days for which the geometron seems ideal.
