The argument against e-bike racing is whats the point in everyone having a set power to start with.
That's part of it. Another concern is how it will be policed. There will inevitably be attempts at cheating. Unless the scrutineering process involves going right through all the computer code of the controllers, smart programmers will be able to cheat, and also to falsify any logs that show evidence of cheating.
On top of that, everyone will be looking for legal loopholes to find a technical advantage. The most obvious thing will be "blueprinting". Not all manufactured parts are completely to specification, there is some tolerance for manufacturing error. For example, some complete gearboxes might have just a bit more drag than others, or by carefully machining or wearing in components, it might be possible to reduce drivetrain drag enough to give an advantage of a few watts. Same will apply to motors, batteries, etc, they won't all be identical. This will give factory backed riders an advantage over privateers because they will be able to go through all the parts in the warehouse to find the best ones. This will cause budgets to explode, but won't do anything to actually make the sport better.
Everyone has same motor/battery so it will be used strategically to help win the race I suppose.
Motors now are not a vase of power source -> battery. There is a motor driver in-between and this is where there is potential for most gain. A good driver can manage peak power dynamically, torque and do some regen. There could be standardised motors (which I doubt) and batteries but the driver is the brains.
Maybe the bars should be an AA, 5 standard AA's handed out by officials at the start of the race and that's all the power you're allowed for the race.
You can use 500W going up the hill but not for very long without a leg contribution...
I think that there should be e-bike marathons (100 miles) with first half being really hilly and the second half fairly flat. So they have to make the tactical decision of whether to burn their battery up on the climbs and then have nothing left for the flat, or struggle up the climbs in eco but have assistance on the flat. Anything that makes them hurt.
So they have to make the tactical decision of whether to burn their battery up on the climbs and then have nothing left for the flat, or struggle up the climbs in eco but have assistance on the flat.
Climbing speed will always make a bigger difference than speed on the flat because you spend more time climbing. Aero drag is much more important on the flat, but that increases as the cube of speed, whereas gravity stays constant. Much more efficient to use the battery to fight gravity and then cruise the flats.
This is how the EWS plans to keep it "fair" no idea how these black boxes work but sound like a good idea.
Riders are not allowed to carry spare batteries on their person (they can carry them on their bike) .
Equipment marking stickers will be issued for the batteries (in addition to the regular bike marking
stickers Chapter 0.6.2).
Racers will need to have a Black Box kit attached to their motors. The kit will be supplied by the EWS-E.
There will be no technical restrictions on batteries etc as we believe technology needs maximum
opportunity to innovate and grow and it’s already moving at a very fast rate.
All bikes must be limited to EU regulations for e-bike/pedelec (25kmph).
Walk function allowed but only in factory settings.
@taxi25 yeah "Obviously!!" D'uh! I know that. I'm the one that's just done an ebike race two days ago! My comments were directed toward the people on page one saying that you're not doing anywork and just motoring up the hill. Did you read what I wrote? 8-9 lines down I say it's just like a normal event where you're sprinting to the top. I didn't think it would need explaining that it's the rider that makes the difference.
Wind it in haggis, this thread was a bit of fun before you showed up. Ride your e-bike and have fun, but stop being so defensive 👍
That's strange taxi, I thought it was a guy asking for information on ebike racing? When you put one exclamation mark it's kind of like raising your voice at someone. When you put two, that's pretty much shouting at them, as with your first post. How do you react when a stranger shouts at you? Do you cower away or do you stand up for yourself? Personally I'll stand up for myself every time, especially when the guy doing the shouting hasn't bothered himself to read my post properly and then tries to be a smart arse, not once but twice. But the 👍 at the end makes it ok of course 👍
I thought it was a guy asking for information on ebike racing?
Not at all. Discourse analysis shows that it was an invitation to discuss the observation that racing an e-bike is cheating!!
an invitation to discuss the observation that racing an e-bike is cheating!!
What’s to discuss? A fella entered a race for E-Bikes with an e-bike, and so complied with the rules...
As for pissing about with rules to govern the battery and motors competitors are allowed, Why bother? People buy leccy magic bikes precisely because they don't want to be limited by puny human physical performance...
If people are really keen on a level playing field for bicycle racing there's been a reasonably good solution to that for the last hundred years or so...
What’s to discuss? A fella entered a race for E-Bikes with an e-bike, and so complied with the rules…
Those are human rules, I'm talking about the moral balance of the universe being thrown off. Don't forget, Hitler didn't break the law, he just changed the law to suit his own purposes. You don't approve of Hitler, surely?
"Everyone has same motor/battery so it will be used strategically to help win the race I suppose."
Motors now are not a vase of power source -> battery. There is a motor driver in-between and this is where there is potential for most gain. A good driver can manage peak power dynamically, torque and do some regen. There could be standardised motors (which I doubt) and batteries but the driver is the brains.
Exactly. You only have to do a few group e-mtb rides to see that it's still the fittest and or/most skilled rider that is the quickest on any given trail, regardless of whether they're on the spangliest super-duper e-bike with the biggest motor or not.
It's just another format of racing, and if it gets more people out on the pedals or raises the profile of our sport then that's only a good thing in my opinion.
As new types of bike emerge isn't it inevitable that events/racing to cater for those bikes will follow? As with all events, whether you choose to participate or spectate is personal choice.
I think there's no reason not to have ebike racing (as long as it's not the FIM format which was truly embarrassing) but whatever the black boxes are they'll need to track the output of the motor. Given the way ebikes are restricted, anything else will lead to a number of innovative ways of cheating, which is fun but undesired.
The fastest/fittest riders in this category will of course generally win regardless of the ebike, and it's a good way of getting battery technology to develop. Although so is the real world of cargo ebikes etc.
it’s a good way of getting battery technology to develop.
E-bike racing won't make any difference to battery technology. They'll be using off-the-shelf batteries because there isn't enough money in the bike industry to fund serious R&D. Electric cars, laptop computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. will make a huge difference because there is serious R&D money in those industries.
Given the way ebikes are restricted, anything else will lead to a number of innovative ways of cheating, which is fun but undesired.
Problem is that the only rules I've seen say that they shouldn't provide assistance above 25 km/hr (which is easy to police) and that the motor should be limited to 250W continuous power which is meaningless.
My understanding is that 250W continuous power just means that if you run it at 251W it will eventually overheat. It doesn't say anything about how much peak power and torque it is allowed to deliver.
Is there anything to stop racers making their own motors and controllers or getting custom made ones?
My understanding is that 250W continuous power just means that if you run it at 251W it will eventually overheat. It doesn’t say anything about how much peak power and torque it is allowed to deliver.
My understanding isn't that 251W would overheat it, but that around one revolution of the motor (or cranks) the instantaneous power might vary, so you're talking the average power over a short period of time. Not, for example, 500W for half the stage, 0W for the other half.
edit - and this would be limited by the power supplied rather than by a motor only capable of putting out 250W without overheating (but the black box would check this via current/voltage going to the motor?)
this would be limited by the power supplied rather than by a motor only capable of putting out 250W without overheating (but the black box would check this via current/voltage going to the motor?)
Which means that motors would have to be stripped and circuitry examined to make sure there aren't any cleverly hidden batteries that can give a short burst of extra power while still keeping within the 250 W average current from the main battery. The supplemental battery would recharge from the main battery and just be big enough to give a boost for a minute or so when needed.
Are there limits on the number of driven wheels and/or motors?
Vorsprung durch Sparkenbikes, etc.
You only have to do a few group e-mtb rides to see that it’s still the fittest and or/most skilled rider that is the quickest on any given trail,
the winning margin will be what you can put in yourself
Not on all trails...speed on e bikes on steep fireroad or tarmac can have more to do with weight of the rider than fitness - My own anecdotal evidence: Mrs bikenski, at 60kg, is faster/uses less battery/less physical effort than Mr bikenski, at 90kg, (same bike, both in turbo). Mr bns can be easily left for dust. On non e bikes Mr bns tends to be a good 20 mins ahead of Mrs bns on the same steep (alpine) trail.
On the e bikes the trail needs to get technical before Mr bikenski can 'win the race' (although the strength and fitness does also come into play when we are both in eco mode).
An extreme example maybe, as weight differences may not be quite as significant in one competition category. However, my thoughts for e bike racing are that technical uphills (maybe time penalties for dabbing) are a must (for me that's what e bikes are all about anyway).
Those are human rules, I’m talking about the moral balance of the universe being thrown off. Don’t forget, Hitler didn’t break the law, he just changed the law to suit his own purposes. You don’t approve of Hitler, surely?
Nice, I see where you are going.
But I can't help thinking that if there was going to be a high ranking Nazi who would have been into ebikeism on the side, it's got to be Heinrich Himmler, he had the build of an ebikerist...
