Going to be honest and its sad to say TBH but cheeky trails are wrong. Sorry, if it goes against the righteous STW'ers.
My mate works for EA, apart from accosting fish poachers I dont think they have any powers like that, I'll ask. In any case just tell em to get ****ed or call the police, police will be very unlikely to care.
the interpretation of the law does not allow you to have a bicycle about your person when on a footpath.
Good job I'm usually riding it then 😉
hora - MemberGoing to be honest and its sad to say TBH but cheeky trails are wrong. Sorry, if it goes against the righteous STW'ers.
Why? No, seriously, why? Bikes were on the original mass-trespass on Kinder, and 'rough riders' have been about much longer than the modern mountain bikers, so riding bikes off roads has been done for much longer than the average red-sock would have you believe. Given the limited damage compared to the hay-eating fraternity, I fail to see the problem.
Bear in mind that you're involuntarily a ambassador for the sport, and that your actions will reflect on others by all means, but don't kid me that an unhappy redsock will see much difference between you hooning down a BW or an FP. Nor for that matter, will they probably see much difference between you riding responsibly in either setting...
Zokes, you can't guarantee every mountain biker will behave responsibly nor can you guarantee than no one will be walking along a footpath on a night ride or early am thus making it open season/'allowed'/cheeky.
As such I do not recommend riding on them. Sorry. My Mother likes rambling/walking etc- has seen inconsiderate idiots on bikes on bridleways let alone footpaths. No. Please let walkers enjoy walking without the fear of someone riding down at any speed.
Plus if your talking live and let live, there are people on here who dont like motorcrossers/greenlaners or 4x4 vehicles in the countryside. Hypocracy.
How quaint this all is.
Just the other day me & a mate were out collecting 'donations' from random people. I'd stop them and ask for a fixed penalty and give them a reciept from my reciept book I got from Staples. You'd be amazed how many people pay up when I flash them my Singletrack subscriber card next to a plastic sheriffs badge in my wallet. If they refuse, my mate chases after them in his van. That usually mops up the 'runners'.
Pays a very good living
😆
Zokes, you can't guarantee every mountain biker will behave responsibly nor can you guarantee than no one will be walking along a footpath on a night ride or early am thus making it open season/'allowed'/cheeky.
Where was I guaranteeing it?
Frankly I don't care about your 'recommendations'. In 15 years of riding I'm yet to come to a consensus as to where I've had most grief from riding, be it either cheeky or legit. No, actually, I do know - it's the road!
Seriously - the only reason bikes don't have as much access to the countryside as walkers is because some of the more vociferous types get themselves organised and selfishly try to keep the countryside for themselves.
Sorry. My Mother likes rambling/walking etc- has seen inconsiderate idiots on bikes on bridleways let alone footpaths. No. Please let walkers enjoy walking without the fear of someone riding down at any speed.
Well, I'll let you all know next time i'm out walking, and you'd better all stay in doors. What an idiotic thing to say! Seriously Hora, poor troll.
As I gather you live north Manc way, are you telling me you've never ridden at Rivington. If you have, why? As pretty much all the descent stuff is usually busy [i]and[/i] 'cheeky' by your book, despite the mast road up and the descent down to Belmont being old drovers' routes, therefore having had horses for centuries, yet curiously are pedestrians and works traffic only...
Hora if there's one word YOU should not use EVER it's hypocracy.
I tend to think that greenlaner / 'crossers / 4x4s do FAR more damage than your average horse / biker / walker, mainly due to considerably more than just the 1Hp going through their wheels. I have no problem if the trail is well metalled and is able to take the extra traffic, but they rarely are and turn into a dry dusty lifeless desert in summer and a filthy quagmire in winter, thats not hypocracy, thats a fact.
Theres a long trail that runs from the centre of the Island to the West (The Tennyson Trail) which has had to be closed to motorised traffic due to the increased amounts of erosion DIRECTLY caused by motorsied traffic, oddly now you only have walkers / bikers and horses going along its beginning to "heal" again after 2 years.
Hora if there's one word YOU should not use EVER it's hypocracy
bigyinn - if there's one word you should never ever try to spell, it's hipocrisy 😆
Yeah sorry CK, been a long day.
Too late for a sneaky edit now you've blown my cover! 😳
I managed to scare a dog-walker on a FP the other day - felt guilty about it. Don't feel guilty about abstract/historical laws though.
Well, I'll let you all know next time i'm out walking, and you'd better all stay in doors. What an idiotic thing to say! Seriously Hora, poor troll.
Why is it idiotic? I have been out walking with my parents when mountain bikers came haring round a blind corner saw my elderly father in the middle of the path and locked up. They only missed him by luck not judgement.
Another elderly gentleman was not so lucky and had bones broken when out walking on a nearby footpath.
As I understand it, about 105,000 miles of 'trail' in UK.
Ramblers - can use 100% legally + right to roam in certain places
mtb, horses 21% (plus mtb have done awfully well for trail centres)
vehicles 3% (down from about 5% and falling)
Given that most 'mountain bikers' seem to think 3% access is unacceptable I fail to see how they can complain when somebody tries to limit them to their 21%.
Dogs have better access rights than mountain bikers do...
Once again, Hora spouts some unthoughtout nonsense and the thread is about him (and what a clown he is).
Getting back to the question of fines on cheeky trails... I too would like to see more detail about the FPN and the authority under which it was issued. My instinct would be to advise the fined not to pay as I suspect the fines will turn out to be unenforceable. I could be wrong though.
cuckoo... so if that incident had happened on a bridleway your thoughts would have been different?
Hurtling round a blind bend without any view of what's coming is a stupid idea, it's got nothing to do with it being a FP!
Access on a SSSI shouldn't be a problem, depends on the reason for designation of course. Lee Quarry isa SSSI and we have built trails there and just had the weekender there all with the OK of Natural England.
If you have been using the route for over 20years you can probably claim it. Check with your local PROW officer.
Never heard of a ticket being given out like this before, we normally just ask people to leave if they are in the wrong place and put plenty of signage up.
post up a picture of the ticket they issued, suitably scrubbed of personal details. It would be very interesting to see if they refer to it as a fine or penalty.
At best, it's an unenforceable invoice!
Cuckoo - MemberWhy is it idiotic?
Because he implies that [u]some[/u] riders may scare walkers by riding recklessly, therefore [u]all[/u] riders shouldn't ride anywhere where they might meet people, let alone the sacred footpaths. Somewhat missing the point that if riders as a whole ride with a bit more courtesy, then some pointless archaic law really shouldn't be an issue. I don't hear stories of walkers being mowed down in Scotland, where they seem to have treated the idea of access a little more pragmatically
"came haring round a blind corner saw my elderly father in the middle of the path "
Pretty much what I did, except I stopped in control with about 10 metres to spare. But I still scared the poor guy witless. Did apologise quickly before moving on and doooo feel guilty
Oh, and gusamc - how do you work that out, when walkers have access to hundreds of square miles of access land. Where, for example, do you suggest I ride [url= http://www.multimap.com/s/THA3zWaU ]HERE[/url]? (It's out of my back door, btw). Miles of footpaths and access land, criss-crossed with landrover tracks, yet bizarrely by yours and hora's 'ethics' (and an antiquated law) out of bounds. Perhaps I should just drive past all those mountains to that much vaunted centre of excellence that is CyB, eh?
Zokes - the whole history in scotland is different and the trails tend to be much more open.
The mountaineers have always used bicycles on the estate roads to get to the more remote mountains so there is some crossover and sympathy and the general pressure on the land is less.
I do also wander if the whole ethos of MTBing is less confrontational and more polite.
I do also wander if the whole ethos of MTBing is less confrontational and more polite.
Perhaps if [b]everyone[/b] was a bit more polite, the world would be a much better place. Apart from when i've nearly been killed by some out-of-control mutt, I never cast the first stone when out riding.
As for the history - I had always wondered why it was so different up there, but that's sheer ignorance on my part. One thing I do agree on is conflict management like the Snowdon agreement. Noone enjoys riding through 1000s of halfwits who've not quite worked out that Snowdon is actually quite a large mountain, and none of those halfwits enjoy being mowed down by some downhill hero. I use the term halfwits, as the sandals and bermuda shorts brigade are the only ones who ever cause problems riding on snowdon after 5 - most of the real walkers actually egg us on!
From what I remember of Alton Water everything west of the bridge at Tattingstone to the Mnningtree Road is out of bounds to cyclists. Though there is an old road runs down to the water at the North End of the reservoir. Anyone other than a police officer has to show their authorisation from the landowner according to the byelaws. It would appear the trails are shut after dark, by implication, as the byelaws require you to leave the water park by the nearest access point when directed to do so.
I may drift out that way myself tomorrow during the day to see what's going on.
Crank v Brookes (1980) has something about pushing a bike across a crossing and you being a pedestrian and not a cyclist thereby letting you push your bike on a footpath. Haven't read it all but this thread has some debate on it
[url= http://www.legalbanter.co.uk/uk-legal-moderated-legal-topics/55771-bikes-red-lights-dismounting.html ]Bikes, red lights and dismounting[/url]
And this site might be useful especially the "Giving your details and carrying ID" bit but again you'd have to know when as a cyclist you come under the Road Traffic Act or not.
[url= http://www.freebeagles.org/index.html ]http://www.freebeagles.org/index.html[/url]
but the best bit of advice if you're out in a group and someone asks for a name. Just shout out "Don't tell 'em Pike" 😀
"Your name shall also go in ze book!"
[img] 
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Hora you just come across as a sanctimonious prat. My riding footpaths in the countryside is far less damaging than horses, pedestrians, and particularly motorised traffic. I can show you photos of [i]real[/i] environmental damage, caused by individuals with legal access. Ramblers gained access through trespass, think of it as lots of individuals indulging in trespass to highlight highly restrictive rights of access denying legitimate country users the same rights of access.
Oh, and pop down to the Life Shop, I hear they have a sale on.
Zokes - I don't really understand the difference myself. I know from a previous discussions on here that the further north, the further from the road and the worse the weather the better ramblers and seem bikers get on.
As I said in the previous post bikes have always been used in Scotland by the mountaineers to get to the more remote mountains - infact thats a part of how I came to mountainbikes. Maybe that has made it seem more normal.
I think the lower numbers of people using the land has something to do with it - meet 6 people on your route its easier to be polite than if you meet 60. that works both ways. However even in the pentlands its very rare to get any confrontation - and they are right next to the city and heavily used.
The appreciation of the countryside and enjoying sharing it with others seems to be part of it.
It seems to me from the tales I hear that bikers are perhaps more confrontational down south than they need to be - perhaps in part borne out of frustration. I and others I ride with certainly attempt to be more than polite to everyone one we see. I get heartily sick of "ping ping" on the bell "thanks" "Lovely day" etc etc but I believe it is good PR so try to do it.
zokes - Member............I use the term halfwits, as the sandals and bermuda shorts brigade are the only ones who ever cause problems riding on snowdon after 5 - most of the real walkers actually egg us on!
Again this might be part of it - places we ride the burmuda short brigade don't get to.
to some extent its not really my business as these conflicts rarely rear their head where I ride but I feel that the bikers should be holier than thou and really go out of their way to be polite to other countryside users - be the polite ones and make alliances.
Has anyone tried going to ramblers club meetings and talking to the redsocks?
I dunno what the solution is but irresponsible behaviour and frustration from both sides seems to me to be key. Dialogue as the way forward?
If you've been using the footpath for 26 years and have not been stopped or challenged in that time, can't you apply to have it upgraded to a bridleway? Twenty year rule i think it is.
Unless you're riding a horse I don't think that's the case. I know there was an attempt to try and extend the right to bikes to upgrade due to unchallenged use, but I thought it fell foul of the relevant government department being reactionary idiots, just like everything else sensible proposed as amendments did.
I think the lower numbers of people using the land has something to do with it - meet 6 people on your route its easier to be polite than if you meet 60. that works both ways. However even in the pentlands its very rare to get any confrontation - and they are right next to the city and heavily used.
Of course one of the problems down here is that cyclists are forced onto a tiny fraction of the trails, inevitably resulting in more conflict than if we were allowed to spread out and choose to use those which make most sense (which are likely to be those with lower redsock density, if high numbers of redsocks is an issue).
Given my local riding is on an area which closely approximates the Scottish model (a big chunk is all bridleways, don't worry about what is and isn't legal on the rest of it), yet is very popular with redsocks, the secret is just to be considerate in your usage. Means avoiding peak time for walkers, and making sure you can always stop in time when rounding blind corners etc. By these means I've only had one conflict in 15 years of riding there - generally people are extremely friendly, getting out of your way, cheering you on and remarking on how superfit you must be as you struggle uphill! Ironically the one conflict was when night riding, which you'd think would be OK - I was also on a bridleway, which the coffin dodgers involved told me I shouldn't be riding on.
As a Southern rider who does ride 'cheeky' trails, in 21 years of riding down here the only confrontation was with a loudmouth who grabbed me by the throat when I pointed out he must be pretty idiotic for not knowing, as a council worker, that the path he had told me not to ride on had been part of Sustrans Route 4 for ten years. ****wit.
I'm just amazed that SFB has been so quiet thus far.. Is no one going to goad him into some sort of polemic rant..? 😉
Given that most 'mountain bikers' seem to think 3% access is unacceptable I fail to see how they can complain when somebody tries to limit them to their 21%.
Its 40yr old angry men not trying to assert their authority without actually doing it in the face of authority.
My riding footpaths in the countryside is far less damaging than horses, pedestrians, and particularly motorised traffic.
I'd laugh my head off at that. Cycling doesnt create errosion? So everytime you see mud you get off and tip toe round? Never been covered in dirt from a ride before?
Get off your high horse. There are enough access rights for mountain bikers. What do you want? The walkers to go away?
I have far more respect for ramblers than I ever will a mountain biker. Seeing 60yr+ walkers in the Lakes, with some 40yr IT-idiot thinking hes Steve Peat on his weekend off. Again. Pisses me. Another thing about this forum, everyone takes themselves far too seriously. It has changed over the years. Everyones aged and grown bitter through lack of achievement.
Afain, going off on a tangent but I dont see myself as "clcque"/a "mountain biker". I like to get out and ride, be within nature, the beauty. I most certainly dont want to be seen as some sort of warrior. I love saying hello to every walker and respect their access. I've no intention of a mass-trespass or solo trespass to gain more 'land'
Cycling doesnt create errosion?
Of course it does. So does walking. the point is. cycling creates no more erosion than walking (the difference is in impact pockets versus channelisation, if you can be bothered to go and read up on it - search for Thurstan and Reader), and indeed given the larger numbers of walkers cycling is actually *less* harmful to the environment overall.
wow
Actually I don't think there are enough trails for MTBers (however I do think they get a fantastic deal compared to vehicles, but then it's a crap deal compared to ramblers) - I think bridleways should be upped to about 75ish% of the total of 'trails'(leaving ramblers 25% of sole access of trails - plus right to roam etc etc etc and I think mtb should be allowed on the entire coastal path inc developments). In reality land I would VERY strongly echo the CountZero/aracer experience, if you go with a smile/hallo/bike behind and show consideration to other users (and the ground etc)you appear to be able to go where you want (*within reason). In 20 or so years of SE riding (Berkish) I've been challenged once and most irritatingly when I said 'Are you the landowner or an appointed factor thereof' he replied yes I'm the gamekeeper, we had a chat but ultimately there was nothing he could do, he had his orders/opinion and and I had my perspective - it was a very polite and calm chat, now I just watch for his landrover - what they eye don't see......
Last local explore involved footpaths and ended up using the local angling club route round a private lake - a few good eveings and a 'do you know where that goes' - a good time was had by all.....
I've only just seen this and haven't time to read through everything so sorry if it's been said already, but from G's 2nd post he says
I think its a footpath, but starts life as a bridleway
I was always led to believe once it's got bridleway status it can't be down graded to a footpath
John - I read that bit to mean it was a bridleway that changes at some point along its route to a FP. Often happens at parish boundary. Just shows what a nonsense access is in England & Wales.
Another good reason not to base route decisions on the ROW designation, which have less to do with historic use and impact than what parish the trail is in.
[i]I have far more respect for ramblers than I ever will a mountain biker.[/i]
This may suprise you, but they aren't actually seperate species.
Blimey 😯
Didn't mean this to get so heated.
Lets me just make some stuff clear here.
1) The reason I posted this is becuase I don't think it was kosher
2) I am trying to get more information and I will put it on here if and when I do.
3) The trail in question was cheeky, its a footpath, but the first mile or so is a bridleway. For no obvious reason its designation changes halfway along it. May be a parish boundary, but I couldn't say for sure.
4) I personally do feel that the ROW issue for cyclists is an importasnt one, and needs a cohesive body to apply pressure for access improvements and some clear rules of the trail to be established. The very fact that thsi thread has developed the way it has is that the rules are just not clear.
5) Hora has a point........ but I'm buggered if I know what it is 🙄
6) However, the views he is stating are argumentative and trolling ... I of all people should know 😉
Docile compliance with existing RoW statute does nothing except perpetuate the existing setup because there is no pressure for change.
That's what the Kinder trespass was all about.
I abandoned all attempts at 'Good-boy' compliance a couple of years ago, ironically because of the limited Bridalway network getting quite eroded in places due to heavy recreational traffic of all types. If the network was more extensive, the pressure of overuse would be spread better.
Now my riding is more 'omnivorous' its also richer and more varied. Interestingly I meet far less people now too.
G, clever elaborate troll well executed! Or can you indeed produce a (realistic) pic of said fine?
Everyones aged and grown bitter through lack of achievement
speak for yourself laddie! I'm happy - to ride my bike and see the sights, and on most rides I manage to ride something I've not done before (starting from a low baseline) :o)
b17 - Member
G, clever elaborate troll well executed! Or can you indeed produce a (realistic) pic of said fine?
I would that that was true B17. I'd happily fess up to it if it was. You are wide of the mark I'm afraid.
it is ironic that Rabid Ramblers (a breed within a breed, not ALL walkers are red-socked and foaming at the mouth) are so possessive and aggressive in "policing" rights of way, when they got their access by systematically mass trespassing years ago.
When I was at uni we rode a hill on north wales in january (trefiw possibly, was sadly a LONG time ago...) in deep snow. The top half of the hill had recently been designated footpath only, despite the trails being fireroads that carry commercial logging equipment. We met one pair of walkers in the whole ride, and predictably the male walker went into a rant about how we weren't allowed to ride there. He bit off more than he could chew as my co-rider was doing a PhD in erosion, and all his rant achieved was to ruin his own day out and to show how arbitrary and pointless the trail designation was.
coffeeking - MemberHora if there's one word YOU should not use EVER it's hypocracy
bigyinn - if there's one word you should never ever try to spell, it's hipocrisy
You mean hypocrisy? 😛
[i]Going to be honest and its sad to say TBH but cheeky trails are wrong. Sorry, if it goes against the righteous STW'ers. [/i]
[i]As such I do not recommend riding on them. Sorry. My Mother likes rambling/walking etc- has seen inconsiderate idiots on bikes on bridleways let alone footpaths. No. Please let walkers enjoy walking without the fear of someone riding down at any speed.[/i]
You seemed happy enough to ride a 60/70% cheeky route when you came along on that ride in Hebden Hora.
I did notice you were prepared to ride slowly down everything to make sure you didn't scare walkers though, mummy would be proud ;o)
