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Good design is incredibly hard to doNo it's not.
You've never ever designed anything have you?
I'm going to go out on a limb as to what would happen if you gave it a go.....
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😆
Funny you should mention that lemonysam, as I designed this.
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Although it was blatant plagiarism. 😉
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Whilst I'd agree the DHB top is nothing new, stars and stripes, been arround since the 1700's! I really can't see how it's particualrly close to the other designers tops. My first throughts actualy were the variations on the USA flag in grunge/punk fashion
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Well I can see that you're a qualified expert.
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
Funny you should mention that lemonysam, as I designed this.Although it was blatant plagiarism.
and we're back at the start of the thread
😉
No it's not.
Point out to me which of these couldn't have come straight from a children's colouring competition or which one would justify Binner's mate's six figure salary.
I dunno, the average local cycling club tops in this country is shockingly bad, but that's mostly because (IMO) they're too busy with the logo plastered everywhere to try an emulate pro team jerseys with sponsors. And MTB clubs are often not far behind in the 'so busy I can't read it when it's flapping, should have stuck with a pattern/design rather than a picture' stakes.
But then if I designed it they'd just be rip offs of Rapha jerseys in different colours, but at least you could pick them out in a bunch!
Point out to me which of these couldn't have come straight from a children's colouring competition
Can you really not tell the difference?
Using the links above:
Designed by designers:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cycle/short-sleeve-cycling-jerseys/?ps=96
Designed by children
> http://www.ctf.org/Kids-Program/Kids-T-Shirt-Design-Contest.html
Interesting how you see no merit in design but chose to copy a classic cycling jersey design yourself. Why not just get a small child to do it?
He designs the clothing, particularly t shirt prints. He earns a massive 6 figure salary
Could you show me some of his work please. I 'd like to see what kind of t-shirt designs command that sort of salary.
Both whatshername and wiggle have fudged with the wrong guy...
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Brazen bit of lawyer-led disingenuity from Wiggle there.
TBH I think there response was pretty clear [url= http://road.cc/content/news/134001-star-gate-wiggle-rejects-anna-glowinski-copying-claims-after-investigation ]"Star Gate"[/url] (I like that)...
I really don't think they're being disingenuous, They've got themselves an audited time line of events, she met with [i]"Someone form Wiggle about 18 months ago"[/i]...
Sounds like she met with some buyers who didn't think she had a sufficiently strong/distinctive brand for Wiggle to sell/promote and hence didn't pick up Ana Nichoola...
Was she ever in negotiations for what she calls a "Collaboration"?
While I see the value of Design in all forms of product there are quite different levels of design and designer involvement, I have a mate who's at the other end in the "Branding" and what I like to call "Branded Tat" market, if they can lay their hands on the rights to stick hello kitty or the little mermaid on a a Phone case from China and make a profit they will, They also design their own products and come up with their own branding, a much more involved task carrying more financial risk, I've seen some the things he's done some very nice work, but the market is stuffed and tough to manage in, so the branded tat ends up paying the bills
I was going to give a bit of detail about what the non-job of designer entails, from interpreting a brief, target markets, research, blah, blah, blah.... through to the practicalities of a production process, then I looked back at my own initial statement on this thread
whether "designer" is a valid profession or not.If you don't think it is, then frankly you're so profoundly stupid then its really not worth entering into any kind of discussion with you.
And I don't think theres really anything more I need to add to that
So you 'designed' a team kit, which people will choose because they represent the team/live on a diet of leaves/whatever, but would people choose your jersey over hundreds of others purely because the aesthetic appeals?
I'm struggling to believe you're so naive that you genuinely don't think anything in this world is truly 'designed', it just happens, and it could be done by a 5 year old. Unless it's mechanical, when it's somehow exempt because you understand that? Where do you stand on logo 'design'?
...shockingly bad, but that's mostly because (IMO) they're too busy with the logo plastered everywhere to try an emulate pro team jerseys...
That's exactly the look I was trying to avoid.
Most team and club jerseys are a mess of colours and get lost in the overall mess of colours in a bunch.
Vegan Runners was already an established "brand" so it made sense to copy (with their permission 😉 ) their two bold colours with just two words in clear text.
Like the bloke on a building site who stands out because he's wearing a camouflage jacket while everyone else is wearing hi-viz, it works.
Page 5 and no pie charts
I is disappoint. 😥
I'm struggling to believe you're so naive that you genuinely don't think anything in this world is truly 'designed...
That's because that was not my point.
We've wandered off topic a bit, so just to clarify, my point was that anyone who designs a jersey with stars on, then sees another jersey with different sized stars, in different colours, arranged in a different pattern, and claims it is their design that has been copied, is trying it on.
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
Most team and club jerseys are a mess of colours and get lost in the overall mess of colours in a bunch.
Vegan Runners was already an established "brand" so it made sense to copy (with their permission ) their two bold colours with just two words in clear text.
Like the bloke on a building site who stands out because he's wearing a camouflage jacket while everyone else is wearing hi-viz, it works.
i've been past you on a race course and i've stood by the side of a trail and watched you go past, it's a dark jersey that's hard to see in the woods with a green band that blends in with leaves and the lettering is too small to read when it's moving, it doesn't work
you need a designer
I dunno, I kinda think MTG got railroaded into that position, his initial assertion that cycling jerseys on the whole didn't seem to be 'designed' was (IMO) fair enough in relation to the asthetics.
On the other hand:
Technical development of fabrics
Cut and fit
Stitching selection
Functional stuff like zips and pockets
All 'designed' (or maybe better termed 'engineered' if we were to give it a distinction), and most people will happily pay more for X jersey over Y jersey because it has some tangible improvement. But in terms of asthetic design, most cycling kit swings wildly between 'explosion in the ADHD factory' and 'boring'. Very little seems to ever be 'designed' by someone competent.
Basicly, I think a lot of cycling kit is 'designed' by the engineers as an afterthought.
And I don't think theres really anything more I need to add to that
Well you forgot the elephant in the room of dealing with visually unaware clients like MTG and having to say complimentary things about their own meagre 'design' efforts.
But you knew it was me, JoB. 😛
It's all about brand awareness.
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
But you knew it was me, JoB.
i had to ask 😉
- replace stars with green veggie stripemy point was that anyone who designs a jersey with stars on, then sees another jersey with different sized stars, in different colours, arranged in a different pattern, and claims it is their design that has been copied, is trying it on.
Dunno Graham, you tell us...this is one of wiggles, but sky have a very similar design to your vegan one. Personally i'd lawyer up if i were you.
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But you knew it was me, JoB.
I think that's kinda the point (although I do agree, your's is a bad example, it's far too dark, small text, upside down text). I watched a road race go past a few weeks ago and I couldn't actualy pick out any clubs jerseys as they were all just a mass of text.
If I knew Reading were blue/yellow, kingston were blue/red/white etc, then uyou could pick them out, but the words READING CYCLING CLUB, KINGSTON WHEELERS, DULWICH DYNAMO, etc, at 30mph just combine to have the opposite effect and camoflauge into each others.
Think Jockeys, Football kit, even old school cycling kit like Peugeot, Molteni etc, one colour, a block of another, big logo/text, done.
I think she's stuffed to be honest, as mentioned Wiggle have proven timeline, her's is patchy. Her only option is to tighten up her timeline and details.
She looks more interested self publicity and being a hanger on around successful people, as London types seems to specialise in.
If you are going to do stars at least do it properly 😉
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Think Jockeys, Football kit, even old school cycling kit...
That's why I like this one.
You don't need to get close enough to read the text, it's recognisable as soon as it comes in to view.
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And yes, I have thought about doing a mark 2 version of the Vegan Cyclists kit for improved visibility.
Possibly reversing the green and black and using a brighter green.
it's recognisable as soon as it comes in to view.
What language is that bit down the middle? Is it Arabic or Cyrillic?
what makes the Singular jersey recognisable is the colour, and combination of colours, you don't necessarily need to see the logo and lettering once you know it's Singular, the visual imprint has been made
they have a particular blue, with that cream and red, a mix that no-one else has, which is why it works
that's design for you
If another manufacturer's team wore blue jerseys with their logo in red on a cream stripe, that would be plagiarism, or copyright infringement.
If they put some stars on their jerseys, it wouldn't.
Possibly reversing the green and black and using a brighter green.
This is why non-designers shouldn't try to design; or they may design in the knowledge that they're not designers and the results will generally be quite bad.
G
If another manufacturer's team wore blue jerseys with their logo in red on a cream stripe, that would be plagiarism, or copyright infringement.
So singular are guilty of plagiarism then as there must be loads of pale blue/cream/red striped jerseys going back through cycling history, what do you think were the visual references for that jersey?!? Are you really that naive?
And as for copyright infringement? Maybe you should read up out what design rights, copyright, trade marks, intellectual property etc are
]MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
If another manufacturer's team wore blue jerseys with their logo in red on a cream stripe, that would be plagiarism, or copyright infringement.If they put some stars on their jerseys, it wouldn't.
it's hard to copyright a combination of colours, or a pattern, but you can easily plagiarise something
as in the Rapha/Torm jersey instance someone can copy your 'Thing' that's been around long enough for people to recognise it as your 'Thing' and you can be a bit peeved that someone's nicked your 'Thing' and do something about it.
it also works with stars on a jersey
and from the other side, any designer with any integrity will say, 'that looks a bit like that, i won't do that, i'll try a bit harder'
MrSmith, maybe Ananichoola should read up on design rights as well. 😉
JoBs last point in his post there ^ is significant. To make that call you need to understand what you're looking at, what it means as much as simply what it is.
it's hard to copyright a combination of colours
Didn't Orange (the phone company) copyright orange (the colour) and try to stop Easyjet using it?
These people are good, just make sure the other side end up paying your costs 😉
[url= http://www.swanturton.com ]http://www.swanturton.com[/url]
Only in relation to phones, easyjet wanted to move into telecoms and start easyphones like they did with easyrentacar etc, except Oranges Brand/logo is that colour, hence they could argue it was too similar to me in the same market. There are official lists of markets where you can/can't overlap you logos, so you could set up Meerkat bikes and have a Russian Meerkat logo, and that would be fine, as long as you didn't move into financial services.
There was no problem therefore with an airline and a phone company using the similar logo's.
Other similar cases Sunday BMX and Sunday road bikes, the latter became Sabath. And Superstar BMX and Superstar components, although I've no idea how the latter gets away with it.
Designers/artists/photographers/musicians etc borrow and are inspired by others in their field.
Just recently I shot this cover image for a magazine, it's a chemex coffee maker so I wanted to do a stylised shot a bit like a chemistry lab
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A few months later this shot appeared in a mens fitness magazine:
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Did I wage a shitty twitter campaign? Phone the mag and demand some kind of recompense? Find out who the photographer/writer was and demand an explanation? No, was slightly bemused then flattered and carried on with my day as there really is no point getting your knickers in a twist about some ephemeral printed matter that's forgotten in a couple of months. Plus I have probably shot stuff myself that is very similar to others work, I may not have actually seen the other work but those commissioning me have and then briefed me to shoot something similar.
On the Team Jersey thing, I thought it was only important that you could recognise your team mates in a bunch or peleton so details like font size are fairly irrelevant.
I appreciate that sponsors might not always agree.
On the Team Jersey thing, I thought it was only important that you could recognise your team mates in a bunch or peleton so details like font size are fairly irrelevant.
Also in photos crossing the finishing line in first place!
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Memberit's hard to copyright a combination of colours
Didn't Orange (the phone company) copyright orange (the colour) and try to stop Easyjet using it?
That's trademarking by the way, not copyright - you don't actively copyright anything, the right exists as soon as the "work" is created. So it would still (likely) a breach of the copyright in that Singular jersey above to for example replicate the design of it but with different wording.
Not the same as Orange trademarking the use of orange (which by the way is very hard to do and relies on sustained use on a widely recognisable level - [url= http://www.thelawyer.com/news/practice-areas/intellectual-property-news/supreme-court-refuses-cadburys-permission-to-appeal-colour-purple-trademark/3018814.article ]even Cadbury's couldn't manage it with purple[/url]).
Here is AnnaCoonda's new designer cycling sunglass to match her unique cycling top.
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http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff215/sputnik_photos/ScreenShot2014-10-28at122132_zps3408114b.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]
The way I understand is that Ana was asked for some design ideas for cycle tops, she showed them her ideas with stars. Wiggle then didn't use her for the designs but some how came up with an idea that just happened to have stars on. So while it's not her exact design, they seem to have gone back and said "Hey! We seen some cracking ideas with stars on looked a bit like this, can you do that for us?".
That would surely piss anyone off.