[Closed] Angle of gravel bars and brake hoods - help please

As you suggest, I would move the levers down and rotate the bars counter clockwise (as the camera sees them) I always aim to have a flat "transition" between bar and lever.

Forget all the other bits in this photo - and that I'm using Woodchippers - and you'll see what I'm aiming at.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/3873/14870663160_f05cf40144_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/3873/14870663160_f05cf40144_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/oE5359 ]DSC_0144[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/druidh2000/ ]Colin Cadden[/url], on Flickr

+1 for Scotroutes setup.
The levers are way too high up the bar and angled up too far so your assessment is correct. I aim to have the hoods very slightly angled up so the wrist is at a neutral angle to the forearm when you're riding on them ... as you probably will be 90% of the time

Great thread, I didn't know I needed to ask this but it turns out I should have.👍

Marvelous, thanks folks.

Now to read about wrapping bar tape correctly... 😬

Depends on the bend of the bars and how you ride. The drops give the most control but puts the levers in an unnatural position if you aim for the usual flat transition bars to hoods. Hoods are most comfortable but offer less control.
If you are riding singletrack exclusively you might want to move the levers down the bars to give a more natural wrist angle in the drops.
If you are doing a mix Of singletrack and longer distance gravel roads then it’s better to flatten the bars and even angle them up slightly as it allows for an easier reach to the brakes on the hoods.
Try googling technical drop bar position, there is a good YouTube video by mrpercussive on bar setup for mtb trails.
Personally I go for a compromise as I ride both mtb trails and the occasional DH track as well as long distance gravel rides.

Phew, thanks sailor74 for reassuring me I'm not the odd one out. I have my EA70 AXs on my CdF quite rolled foreward as they feel fantastic when in the drops. The hoods don't have an aestethetic transition to the top of the bar but i found if I did this then it put the levers in an awkward position for operating from the drops. I don't find the hoods uncomfortable to ride in with the position I've got them so other than 'looking a bit odd' all seems good.

Is this how it starts? is this how you begin the transition to being one of those werido's with a horrific looking setup that you refuse to change despite (or maybe because of) everyone elses protestations? Like the guy who used to cycle past my flat in Aberdeen with a slammed stem and inverted riser bars?

With the stem you have if you put there tops flat and the levers further around the curve so the almost become an extension of the flat oart, you are going to end up sitting pretty tall. Also, unless there is some arrange parallax error in the photo, it looks like the curve of the drops is unusual. Seems like they would almost point straight down to the ground if you had the tops flat.

When you’re on the hoods imagine you’re holding a pistol. You wrist should not be kinked but fall in line/continue with your forearm angle.

Sort of like this:

I had a similar problem and tried shifting the hoods up and down. They just didn't get on with the bar shape.

Then I solved it by having a crash. It pushed one hood inwards at an angle. On the ride home I noticed that there was no pressure on the heel of my hand on that side, so I've moved the other hood inwards too and the problem is solved for those bars.

It might work for the OP too.

The drops give the most control but puts the levers in an unnatural position if you aim for the usual flat transition bars to hoods. Hoods are most comfortable but offer less control.

That is very, very personal thing. In my case I'm more comfortable on the drops.

Very low drop bars, like Ritchey VentureMax, is helping enormously.

Putting your wrists in natural position once on drops but still allows you to reach ok to levers/paddles.

I wouldn't mind even smaller drop than Ritchey, but you are getting into territory of custom made handlebars that will see you about 700 quid off :-/

Cheers!
I.

The bars look like they need rolling back a lot. Aren't they 105 shifters? I'm sure I read that because they are a different shape to Ultegra they can't necessarily be set as an extension of the flat section of the bars

Hmm, so there are some good thoughts here. thank you.

I found riding techy downhills 'not that fun' when on the hoods, so put hands in the drops but currently the levers are in a weird place for that to work well.

Suspect my first move will be to rotate bars back up, and move levers down. Go for a flat transition, slightly pointing up, and play from there. Interesting point about 'toe-in' epicyclo, ta.

Shifters are the GRX gravel groupset, I 'think' they have a nice big platform that should be OK as an extension of the flat bit of the bars.

Looks like CRC shows them as how they should be set up, on mine the brakes seem to have been mounted way too high on the curve of the bars. Theres a lot of angles on my photo, so parallax may be confusing how it all looks.

will have a footer about and report back!

As regards toe-in...

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[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/druidh2000/14870568590/ ]P1010496[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/22384952@N02/ ]Colin Cadden[/url] - [url= https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dariogf.flickr2BBcode ]Flickr2BBcode[/url]

Ultimately, there is no "correct" position, only what suits you and gives you comfort and controllability. It's good to see what other folk are doing to give you a good kicking-off point but riding position, bar height and other geometry differences all have an impact.

I set the transition part of the bar horizontal to the ground. Then hoods at 5% angle up (its slight but stops you sliding forward on rough ground). Then toe in the hoods as above but again its only a slight angle, too much and the bottom of the lever will be unnatural in the drops (sticking out outside of the bars). Scotroutes aren't actually toed in, they just follow the natural shape of the bars, so you may not need to do this if your bars are flared.

It's worth leaving the bartape off for a few rides and playing with the position before taping up. I've done this with road bikes in the past, I'd not do a century with no tape but it's fine for an hour to work things out.

i really dont subscribe to the traditional bike fit, its all based on road riding which doesnt necessarily translate.
my gravel bike is long anyway but im running a 40/50mm stem. the easy wrist angle on the hoods is fine if you are riding on the road for hours on the hoods, if you are riding singletrack in the drops then you want a better position there. everything is a compromise, just dont compromise your setup by following the age old bike setup rhetoric that would have us all riding short bikes with the 'handle bars in line with the front hub' etc etc

i really dont subscribe to the traditional bike fit, its all based on road riding which doesnt necessarily translate.
my gravel bike is long anyway but im running a 40/50mm stem. the easy wrist angle on the hoods is fine if you are riding on the road for hours on the hoods, if you are riding singletrack in the drops then you want a better position there. everything is a compromise, just dont compromise your setup by following the age old bike setup rhetoric that would have us all riding short bikes with the ‘handle bars in line with the front hub’ etc etc

I disagree, and so does my very experienced bike fitter. The best body position for pedalling/power transfer/endurance is the best position, regardless of where or what type of bike you are riding.

the easy wrist angle on the hoods is fine if you are riding on the road for hours on the hoods, if you are riding singletrack in the drops then you want a better position there

This is confusing. Are you saying that achieving a ‘relaxed’ wrist angle on the hoods will compromise your position on the drops?

One size fits all BS I'm sensing...

Sorry, but for typical people with typical requirements it is mostly correct, however there are so many morphological and physiological variations out there that it is simply not correct.

What suits given person and bike mix best is the best. Not something that Mr Very Experienced Fitter said I'm afraid. Sure thing, it might help, it might point out into some obvious issues that seems insurmountable but it is never going to be Ultimate Gospel of Bike Fit for everyone...

Cheers!
I.

PS
Tape with silicone backing instead of glue. Tape it in, if you want to change something just un-tape and tape back...

Silicon backed? good idea! I must have re-wrapped them 3 times, please don't laugh too hard at my efforts.

Buggered about with bar angle, hood position, toe-in etc last night, and ended up here:

1) On the 500mm wide bars, on the hoods this feels superb, what a fantastic position and hand pain is gone. not quite sure yet the best place for fingers when on hoods for steep downhill braking, esp when its rough. see point 2 below

2) But now, position in drops is not good at all. not that I am there much, but it is indeed at a really weird angle now.

Anything else I can do?

But, I am enjoying a bit of gravel. it is a fun little bike, nice for a pootle on the backroads, and then pop-off down a track for an explore. Its a very capable climber, that little rear wheel and short frame really whoosh up the steep and relatively techy off road trails.

If you can't find a good compromise between hood and drop positioning then the next thing to look at would be bar shape. There are various curves available, "ergo", deep drop, different flares etc. Can start getting a bit spendy though.

I think I'll just 'ride' for now - its all new to me, many more places for hands to go, I need to get used to it before getting another bar. And I really don't want to re-tape... again!

Interesting thread. I recently got a Norco Search XR A1 (60.5 cm) as a newbie to the drop bar all road/gravel world. After a couple of rides I changed the bars and the stem. I'm 193 cm with long arms, the bars were too narrow at 46 cm, the bar diameter on the tops was too small for my hands and the drop was a bit too much. The stem was too long at 11cm with a 7 deg positive rise. After research, I went for Spank Vibrocore Flare 500 mm wide bars with 25 deg flare, 31.8 mm diameter on the flat section and less drop (110 mm), with a 90 mm 12 deg stem. This has improved the ride quite a lot over the stock set up and it feels great on the tops and in the drops on and off road. Ref shifter position, mine were in the right place as per what folk have posted above, worth getting right though.

@big_scot_nanny I think you’ve got levers positioned spot on in that last set up photo. For me I would roll the bars slightly clockwise by about 5-8’ which should be a good position for you to ride in the drops and still operate brakes comfortably from there. Shouldn’t put your wrist position out either for riding in the hoods. You’ve also reminded me; as did the hour out Rough stuffing on Monday, that I need to move the shifters on my cross bike.

Looks like a big improvement on your first picture. Not sure if the picture angle, but looks like you may have over rotated the bars backwards. But like I said look much better, small tweaks form here, and lots of riding

We're just ignoring that bare bit of handlebar where the tape goes round the shifter though, aye?

it's drops. Unless you're racing they're a rubbish design for handlebars.

Great contribution. I love an evidence free assertion

I think you’ve got levers positioned spot on in that last set up photo. For me I would roll the bars slightly clockwise by about 5-8’ which should be a good position for you to ride in the drops and still operate brakes comfortably from there.

Yeah I was going to say exactly this. Looks fine, though.

it’s drops. Unless you’re racing they’re a rubbish design for handlebars.

OK, I'll bite. I like drops for riding medium-long distances on anything other than gnar. 3 different possible hand positions (change it up for comfort), and much more aero than flat bars.

Unless you're riding off road MTB trails, flat / riser bars are a rubbish design for handlebars. 😛

Great contribution. I love an evidence free assertion

In the finest STW traditions obviously...But if you really do want some reasons....

Flat bars...Comfier and kinder for your back, wrists and neck and better for all round visibility, and offer better low and fast speed handling, the shifters and brake levers for flat bars are better than hoods by a country mile and cable routing is simple, making maintenance easier, flat bars are nearly always cheaper, bar taping is a faff, there are a hundred designs to choose from for hand position changes, and if you want to, you can use Rohloff or gearbox shifters...

Drops...Look cool, aero...erm that's probably it

We’re just ignoring that bare bit of handlebar where the tape goes round the shifter though, aye?

Aye. Gonnae no dae that.

2) But now, position in drops is not good at all. not that I am there much, but it is indeed at a really weird angle now.

That is rather obvious... On the handlebars without ergonomic counter bend your position will always be somewhat compromised.

It is either finding the best balance between hood and drops position or buying ERGO bars that will allow roadie-like position on the hoods and comfortable, natural position on drops.

Only problem for me with that is, not so many handlebars with seriously small drop, ergo counter bend and decent flare. Closest so far I found is already mentioned Ritchey VentureMax. But it is only going to 460mm wide. Luckily Ritchey produced XL version that is 520mm wide. Sadly it is only in WCS model, that is of course much more expensive than Comp.

Joys of having small hands with short fingers...

Cheers!
I.

@nickc fair enough. I disagree with most of your points apart from cabling under bar tape being a faff to install but once it's done it's done. All personal choice

Drops…Look cool, aero…erm that’s probably it

( On my gravel/tourer) I completely disagree.

1. Not convinced they look ‘cool’
2. Aero yes, in a headwind long distance it’s especially ace. I still like to be fairly upright on the tops/hoods though so my stem is higher than average. Best of both worlds as drops still give me aero
3. That isn’t it at all. The biggest advantage long-distance (in fact anything over 40k) IME is having a good few grip/rest-positions that relieve pressure, boredom, and ‘locked in’ posture. I have MTB loop bars on my 29er and they work better offroad singletrack stuff but on longer touring trips with lots of connecting lanes and fireroads I’ll take the drops all day. ymmv, but it’s objectively true that drops offer varied grip-positions and posture-relief.

I don't know much about the nukeproof geo - those bars would probably be suited to a high stack, shorter reach downcountrygraveltouringgrinder bike or whatever they are called this week. The flared straight drops are nice for a bit if singketrack on the right bike. The picture shows the bike with a pretty traditional compact road bars - you might find those suit you better on that frame. It's a nice bike though. Looks good with the blue tape.

but it’s objectively true that drops offer varied grip-positions and posture-relief.

You've fitted bars which force you to change hand positions to gain some "posture relief" most of which (if we're being honest with ourselves) is being caused by the position that drops force you to adopt in the first place, and then claim that's a positive...Dude, excellent work..haha  🙂

We're such a weird group us cyclists. Drops are a royal PITA, and probably cause no end of injuries, but no, these are the bars for me, so I'll defend them with all my might because some-one has given me pause to think of another solution...Bringing out some classic double think and probably a bit of Stockholm syndrome...I've probably done it myself.

Nearly all of my riding these days is on drops. I haven’t needed to think hard about it and make a list of reasons justifying why it is. They just turn out to be way more comfortable than flat bars for this kind of riding.

It’s a bit weird if you feel the need to make a list of reasons why that can’t possibly be true.

Bez - you have to remember that some folk lack the imagination and/or ability to ride any surface that isn't completely smooth unless they have a wide piece of scaffolding attached to the front of their bike.

Ignoring nickc's trolling, and the gap in the bar tape, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that those bars are a really weird shape. In your photos, to get the top of the bar leading up to the hoods flat (which, IMO, is how it should be) the bottom of the drop points about 30 degrees down. This is exacerbated by the fact that in your last side on shot you've rotated the bars too far anti-clockwise, making the position in the drops worse.

I'm not totally convinced they've been designed with a human being in mind. I'd swap to a different low drop bar - 50cm options that aren't flared are thin on the ground (I've always found that flares beyond about 15 degrees make for a much more uncomfortable position for your hands in the drops, and I use the drops quite a lot) so maybe try a 46cm bar with a more traditional shape. I reckon you'll find it much more comfortable. Ritchey do cheap, well shaped sets of bars that are good to experiment with-

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ritchey-comp-curve-handlebar-2020/rp-prod190759

Or these with a very slight flare if that's what you're into-

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ritchey-comp-butano-bar/rp-prod189090

Ignoring nickc’s trolling

Mleh, you guys are no fun anymore...

these are the bars for me, so I’ll defend them with all my might

No-one here is ‘defending (a certain bar) with all their might’ (except maybe you, with your flat bar)

Giving an alternate viewpoint is a simple thing. Having different opinions on the merits of a type of handlebar is not a crime that necessitates nickc jumps up wagging his/her finger/brandishing ready-cooked cod-psychology profiles like a sparring Victorian professor 🤣

You are effectively saying that flat bars are the be all and end all for all types of riding...

... yet accusing someone who rides a wide variety of bars (for different types of bikes/riding) of doing what you are doing. You like psychology? Look up ‘projection/projecting’ 😉 Maybe have a word with that hairy fellow under your bridge 😎

because some-one has given me pause to think of another solution

Look, I love bikes and bicycling. Have been riding bikes for exactly 43 years. I customarily ride a bike everywhere that I’m able. I rather use a bike than use a car and always have. Have owned and ridden ATB bikes, mountain bikes, Audax bikes, touring bikes, recumbent bike, recumbent trike, chopper bike, hybrid bikes, frankenbikes, Dutch bikes, folding-bikes, foot-bikes, shopping bikes, cargo bikes. On these bikes I use/continue to use all manner of bars. Flat bars (wide and narrow) with and without bar-ends (long and short), ‘loop‘ bars, trekking-bars, butterly-bars, high sweep ‘dutch’ bars, ‘cowhorns’, drop bars (narrow, wide, flared, deep, shallow), TT bars, ‘moustache’ bars, inverted bars.

Am like a weird train-collector of bikes and handlebar, yet whatever feels the best for me has been effectively filtered over the decades and I’ve arrived at a few favourites (yet still trying new designs just to see) that yet still are subject to whimsy or changing requirements. ie recent years I’ve a recurring injury so cannot do much seated climbing. This unplanned situation has necessarily changed my cycling configurations again in order to keep active. Am also a little, ok a lot, obsessive about getting the right fit and optimal comfort.

But you’re ‘giving me pause‘ to think of ‘one solution’? I already keep four ‘solutions’ on three bikes. How can I be less dogmatic? Variety is the spice of bikes!

Even my one bike (retro tourer) that has drops fitted also nonethless gets the occasional switcheroo to upright old-school narrow touring bars, depending on what kind of summer I’m having and/or because I like the change. I also like to fit new bar tape from time to time. It’s a ‘faff’ that I really enjoy. Great satisfaction to do a good job of it. I plan ahead, book it in, then spend a good few hours with a few cold beers and the radio on in the studio. Wrapping the bars. Cabling the brakes. Every couple of years. It’s nice. See also the dismantling and meticulous cleaning of jockey-wheels and cassettes. I love that!

We’re not so much a weird ‘group’, we’re all different individual weirdos. It’s OK to have different opinions and find different benefits in different pursuits, even under the same wide umbrella. It really is 👍🏼 well, I think that it is.

Bikes are ace. Cycling is ace.

Ah, who am I kidding? You got me. I only pretend to like drop-bars because I can fit an expensive French bar-bag between the hoods which is also supported from below by a sweet little randonneur rack*

*Actually not true, I use a nylon rack pack on the rear, same one for 20 years.

But you got a little bit excited at thinking you’d ‘busted’ a vapid poseur, dintcha! 😂

Now I’ve gotten myself again wanting very much to mirror-polish some vintage aluminium. Another thread unravels.

*edit -

A few bars/configs I’ve tried on different ATB/tourer projects over the last decade or so

Joking apart, Nick maybe you can solve a problem I haven’t yet identified? Here’s the situation.

I couldn’t really choose ‘just one’ bar as there is offroad and on-road and in-between. I still find the ‘pistol-grip’ on the hoods just right for lots of road work and winch/plummet in hilly country (most of my riding) as it rotates the arm inboard and recruits different muscle groups. Feels so much better than palm-down position when heaving uphill on the flat bars, and also allows you to get your body over the bars on roads/fireroads going up >8%

Bar-ends can give a very similar position to hoods, yet minus the brake-ability and the added ‘shoulder’ grip position on drops (the bit behind the hoods) which gets me a little more upright even than on the hoods. Again, plenty of variety and ‘rest’ options over long-distance of medium/hard powering with winch and drop.

Joking apart, Nick if you have a ‘solution‘ in mind that you feel is objectively better for touring than drops then I’m nearly all ears. But I’m suspicious of ‘one size fits all’, because it seems apparent after four decades that variety is better. I’m pretty sure the only distinctly different bar/s that I haven’t tried would be the KOGA Denham/H-bar/Velo Orange Krazy bars variants. I’ve thought a lot about those recently, out of curiosity. But they are expensive to try out. It never ends! You’ve hit paydirt with me mate.p 🤪🤣

Now *that’s* taking the bait 🙂

^ 🤣

👍🏼 is mind-food for the boring brunch. also like babbling endlessly about bicycles. I love handlebars though. And another coffee.

I have to say that while I've pretty much settled on Compact drops for most of my bikes I've been "flared drop curious" on and off but I've shied away from buying any for fear that I'd get caught up trying to figure out what sort of inward angle I'd have to tweak my levers to...

I now find myself trying to equip a SS CX build at the minute, and the spares bin has yielded some deeper drop "ergo" bars that I'm not really that keen on... Is now the time to experiment with flared drops?

Anyone care to try and sell me the relative merits of Flared Vs Ergo Vs Compact for a CX bike... (Not bothered about flats though)

Flared drops is personal thing. On the paper they are giving additional leverage whilst negotiating rough stuff, especially at speed.

From my personal experience I had very, very short stint with standard drop bars and went for flared quite early in my drop bared life.

Midge, Digest, Funn G-Wide and VentureMAX recently.

In the meantime I had few tries with standard and compact drop bars and frankly I cant use them anymore. Even at 440-460mm they are feeling too narrow, insecure and twitchy.

All down to personal preferences...

Cheers!
I.

Bike looks too big. I think you want lower controls but closer to you, hence you have rotated them back. Do you have any bend in your elbows when on the hoods? you should have about 15 degrees, not locked. That's a test of reach. Normally I'd swap to a shorter stem, but your stem is pretty short already.

Hi Tired, nah, if anything even the biggest bikes are too small for me - me being stiff and fat is more likely the issue.

However - update!

I did rotate the bars a clockwise again about 5 degrees, reduced the reach on the brake levers, and fitted a 170mm dropper (I had one brand x spare, so its a straight swap, and, you know, why not!)

The former now gives me a quite marvellous feeling perch for powering onwards (lovely feeling gripping the hoods, tucking the elbows in and cranking it).

The brake lever tweak now means the drops (or rather, the 'hooks' as I believe it is called) are being more often used.

The dropper combined with more confidence in the drops/hooks means that descents are now riotous fun!

Cheers all, extremely helpful.