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"Horses for courses Wobbliscott. I’ve never ridden a steel or aluminium road bike and thought it was better than my lightweight aero carbon bike."
Bear in mind that this is meant to be a mountain biking forum, so if Wobbliscott is answering like I did, then he's not thinking about road bikes at all! I can see the benefit of carbon frames in road bikes.
My most recent MTB purchase was a Turbo Levo. I bought the base model and had the fork and brakes changed to really good ones and added a nice dropper post. The improvement in components as you went up through the model range was pretty disappointing considering the vast extra cost. And to get a decent set of forks you had to pay extra for a carbon frame - and the last thing I need on a bike with a motor and carrying many pounds of battery is a slightly lighter frame!
I really want a Santa Cruz 5010 and am in the same debate over carbon or alloy. I won't buy a full bike as the components I already have are far better than what I would get on a full build, right up until a CC model, and they would all fit. £1300 extra for cc over alloy seems ridiculous though, even with a better shock. I think I'm going to test ride both back to back and see if I can tell the difference.
and the last thing I need on a bike with a motor and carrying many pounds of battery is a slightly lighter frame!
au contraire.
spesh went all out to reduce frame weight but still conceal the battery in an attempt to make the bike look less like an ebike on your current year levo.
It's almost as light as an extrnal battery shimano motor emtb and rides considerably better for it.
Massively surprised at the Santacruz claimed weight differences between Carbon and Ali. That's huge!
most manufacurers it's only a few hundred grams and then most of the owners invariably seem to cover the thing in 250g of helitape and downtube protection.
3.847kg for a large alloy 5010 (no shock) or 2.5kg for a large CC 5010 (also no shock) according to SC.
Those are pretty big differences which I think is why myself and some others on here are stopping to think so much. If it was more like the difference between C and CC (just over 200g) then the question wouldn’t even have been asked!
Geex, from what I gathered Santa Cruz purposely went out their way to make sure that the alu bikes are considerably heavier to differentiate the alu bikes.
Santa Cruz also know that people wouldn't spend almost 2k more for a CC frame if it was only 200g lighter. It's good as well in that the people who buy alu frames are less able to replace them if they break, so it's probably a good thing they aren't built like coke cans.
Which makes sense because the only enduro alu frames that seem close to rivalling my Supreme SX in terms of being overbuilt is my brother's Nomad and some of the Transitions
The alu Nomad is burly as ****, it's survived 7-8 months of abuse after my brother broke a couple of new Cotic Rockets within a few weeks of each other. So, burlier than a steel frame.
If I crack a weld or something on my Commencal I'll get an alu Nomad.
I got quoted 3.1kg for 5010 alloy and 2.5kg for carbon by a Santa Cruz dealer.
If it is genuinely over 1.3kg lighter, as quoted above, then I can see a big benefit to the carbon frame.
I switched my Spesh Enduro 29 alu frame for an S-Works in carbon to get some weight saving for longer non-uplift days in the Alps. Yes, it is lighter, but in every other respect, I think the alu frame rides better - the very slight give in the alu frame and additional weight seemed to help it track through rough ground much better. All the parts, including shock were swapped over between frames, so it's been interesting to get a direct comparison.
As far as SC go, I used to have a Blur TR alu and switched that for a CC carbon frame that I was offered at cost. Strangely, I preferred the carbon version with that, as it felt slightly softer and less harsh than the aluminium, and the lighter weight meant it climbed really well. I also had CC Tallboy LTc, and that was very similar to the Blur CC i.e. quite forgiving for a carbon frame. Again though, I think the additional sprung weight of the alu frames makes them descend better.
More recently, I demo'd a new Hightower CC and was expecting that SC 'specialness', but was surprised by how dead and wooden the frame felt. To me it felt completely different to the earlier SC carbon frames. Given that experience, and the Enduro frame, if I were you, I'd go aluminium and spend the money saved on better & lighter components.
Dunno, my old 2007 alu Chameleon was built like a tank too and carbon MTB frames didn’t exist in the practical world back when that was current. It’s currently parked next to a 2011 Alu FS bike and despite being a hardtail is noticeably heavier.
It’s certainly never given me the impression it might break! Maybe SC have just always been generous with the aluminium?
If it is genuinely over 1.3kg lighter, as quoted above, then I can see a big benefit to the carbon frame
If climbing is your thing which I guess it may be if you are after a 5010.
If you're getting a more descent oriented bike, the heavier frame can still be built down to the optimal 30-31lb for Enduro - and by doing that, you're going to have a bike that tracks the ground better.
The alu Nomad is burly as ****
MTBR seems to think 4.7kg with a coil shock - I think that's about as heavy as my old Iron Horse Sunday frame!
In fact it's more than my XL RAAW, which is certainly not something that could be considered light 😆
Calv, the weights I’ve just quoted were for the current model 5010 and direct from SC after I emailed them. The weight they gave for the CC agrees with the frame Singletrack put on the scales (although they didn’t specify shock/no shock like SC did).
Unless maybe SC don’t want to sell the alloy frame (unlikely?) I can’t see why they’d artificially make it heavier than it needs to be especially when they have the ‘C’ grade covering ‘less expensive’ already and not wildly out of line with Direct post-drop Intense price wise (arguably Intense are offering a nicer build but SC are offering a dealer chain)
Carbon frames are reinforced plastic, but the actual carbon production involves a mine of some kind and ore processing. I’m not familiar with this, but you can bet the process of production is not gonna make the world a better place.
Carbon fibre is made from acrylic fibre, which is made from acrylonitrile, which is a petrochemical made from the ammonia, propylene and oxygen. Ammonia is made from natural gas generally and propylene comes from cracking gas or oil. Non of those things are particularly ecofriendly but at least they're generally done under tight environmental control.
They don't sell the C grade as a frame only.
My brother's alu Nomad frame is a good 1.25lb heavier than my aluminium Reign was.
Either they threw enough material at the alu frame to make it as strong as the carbon one or they cut back on heavily butting the frame etc to reduce costs.
I'm trying to get away from the whole "enduro" thing. Going back to a more playful bike that can do a bit of everything including full day rides, which I know an enduro bike does anyway, but it is very much on the side of descending, at the expense of fun and climbing ability. I'm sure I will end up with the 5010 cc frame anyway, even if I don't strictly "need" carbon, the lighter weight will probably have me, especially if its as big a difference as SC state.
Yep. The ‘C’ being full build only is very definitely down to sales model.
I’ve included it as my thoughts include a full build C. With heavy wheels and buildkit but full GX Eagle it looks the best part of 2lbs and £500 more than I’d build an alu 5010 with 11sp X01. As I already have the wheels to swap and my ‘self build’ weight calcs are going to be light due to quoted figures and missing stuff out like cables, sealant etc I’m betting they both end up around the same weight but with potential for the full bike to get a couple of pounds lighter as stuff wears out. Tbh, this is probably more interesting than the CC to me and where the ‘so... difference?’ question becomes most noticeable (to me).
I wouldn’t go so far as to say climbing was my thing, but I’m definitely more of an all day rider than someone who enters Enduros, lives for Trail centres or bimbles along BW’s. I proved I’m no good at Enduro years ago! 😅
i so wish i'd weighed my v2 cc frame with shock, it was so light, sticking a 130mm factory fork on felt to double the weight, it was far lighter than my chameleon alu frame..
great choice Op
Sounds to me like SC have chucked a lot of material at the Alu bikes to be on the safe side strength wise and also to differentiate them from the Carbon version.
If I was buying a new full susser, the material wouldn't bother me as much as the suspension components, wheels, brakes and drive train.
That being said if i was considering 2 different brand/model alu bikes, all things being equal i would buy the one that launched in Alu then went carbon rather than launched as Carbon then Alu came along as an after thought.
there’s probably about 1200g difference in the two frames
Is that really true?!
There is apparently 370g difference in frame weight between my carbon Mondraker Dune and an Ali one (Just frame not shock)
Santa Cruz are on the record as saying their alloy bikes are just as stiff as their carbon frames, which probably explains the big weight difference, rather than any conspiracy about forcing people into cc purchases.
The 2019 5010 alloy frame is very chunky and very stiff. If you can ride properly you could easily race enduro on it (I plan to) I took mine for 10 runs down Antur in the slush last weekend and never felt like I needed more travel. I'm off to Danny Hart's place on it this weekend. I know people who've done the mega on 5010s without any issues.
If you're bothered about weight and climbing fast then get an XC bike like a Blur/whyte S120 or a carbon/ti hardtail - the 5010 is a bike which is meant to be ridden hard that's why they're so loved by the likes of 50to01.
I honestly don't notice the extra weight compared to my hardtail apart from when I lift it up to stick it on the roof of my car!
The answer is to get the carbon one. Buying light bling bits then putting them on a heavier frame is soul destroying - even if its all in your own head!
That being said if i was considering 2 different brand/model alu bikes, all things being equal i would buy the one that launched in Alu then went carbon rather than launched as Carbon then Alu came along as an after thought
@billoddie, yep that point was made in the Knolly comparison ^^^, the riders noted that the Alu Warden was first and the Carbon followed and was barely lighter, and wondered if a Carbon first design would be much different.
The current Alu 5010 seems to be just over 1.3kg heavier than the CC version - scarily close to £1/g! I don’t personally think there’s any sort of conspiracy going on to sabotage the weight of the Alu, as mentioned SC Alu bikes have never been particularly light but are quite solid and stiff. I’m going to ponder this, but throwing the full build ‘C’ into the mix as well as a frame only Alu build, it looks like at a similar price point Alu might actually be lighter due to all the nicer kit than the C full build, although if kept long enough the C would eventually get to capitalise on the frame being 1kg lighter as parts were replaced...
... although also we do seem to have come back to weight and bling being the deciders for carbon over other materials which was the main original question!
<blockquoteI’m trying to get away from the whole “enduro” thing.
Yep, this. I have a Hightower C with 36s that comes in at 29lbs with pedals. I call it a "trail bike" as its spot on for where i ride (the Peaks). Most of my mates have gone full enduro and their bikes, by comparison, are heavy, sluggish and quite depressing to ride for anything other than pointing down hill.
Pinkbike published an interesting article last year on the environmental carbon vs aluminium production "Which is better?" debate.
Not as clear cut on either side as some may think. Worth a read.
I've had my fair share of Alu and Carbon frames, but I've never based a purchase on the frame material. I've only ever gone for the carbon version if it was the only choice (SC Hightower), or if it was a good sale price (Hightower and Spark).
I do prefer the looks of a nice carbon frame on full suspension bikes, but that's just my personal preference if all else is equal. It's not "showing off" to other people as I really don't pay attention to stuff like that (you should see the state of my van!).
Must admit thought I'm very fond of my new Pace, but I've no idea if that has anything to do with it being steel 🙂
I reckon there's a difference between Alu and Carbon thats fairly easy to detect when riding them. Difference i say, not better or worse.
Carbon wheels seem to make the bike ride more precisely, even stiffer more direct. Is that a good thing? maybe. Maybe not.
Carbon is not worth any significant price hike IMHO, if you can buy the exact same frame design in Aluminium.
In my experience there is quite a difference in feel between a 25lb bike and a 28.5lb bike. Having said that, my Trek Superfly is lovely, lively and great climbing, and it weighs 27.5lbs which is porky for an XC race bike. On the other hand again, if it weighed 22lbs like Taxi25's does, it would be even quicker!
If the aluminium is designed to ride the same/have the same stiffness as the carbon one then I would expect it to be a good chunk heavier which it seems to be. You can build an aluminium frame the same weight but it will likely be less stiff or weaker. You can build a carbon frame the same weight as a normal aluminium one and it will likely be stiffer and a lot tougher.
Of course you can always mess up either design/manufacturing but the above assumes someone who knows what they are doing.
People accept that someone might buy a Porsche for many reasons other than they are a driving god and need one to get the best out of their driving skills. People buy them because they like them, because of the image they want to portray to others, because its a life’s dream and symbolises they’ve achieved their goals in life and made a success of themselves, they buy them to impress other people etc
I am sure that's some of the motivation yes but why generalise ? Most Porsche owners I know chose their car for the driving experience and their versatility including an uncanny ability to cope with track use (for a road car). The parallel is much closer to mountain bikes in that case as both activities are leisure and somewhat performance orientated rather than boring utilitarian road driving, which most cars are used for including Porsches.
The classic "driving god" / "impress other people" thing usually comes from envious/bitter people but I don't want to generalise.
Interesting series on stiffness and frame material on the Santa Cruz website here:
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-GB/joes-corner
I stopped giving a shit about weight the time I had to strip my Alu FS for painting. Honestly, once you e stripped off the mounting headwear, linkages etc etc etc and you’re just left with the actual front and rear triangle (you knows the bits that would be carbon) they weight 7/10ths of sod all, I couldn’t imagine even losing half that weight would be meaningful.
Maybe the whole stiff / complaint thing is useful, I don’t know.
I personally think the benefit is its cooler, because it costs more.
Alu seems to be making a resurgence, that limited Alu Capra sold out in moments, more Alu bikes are coming out and riders are rediscovering that Alu is actually a fantastic material to make MTB rims out of.
I had the same conversation with myself when I recently wanted a Tallboy. LTM have the current model frames which made it a bit easier to convince myself the CC was a 'deal'. All I can say is it has built up into a really nice bike. How good would alloy have been - I'll never know?
FFS @p-jay ive just got some carbon rims I never realised aluminium rims where superb quality, ive dented enough clearly not finding the ones u mentions.
Ps. I got an alu chameleon it’s superb, can’t wait to get it Powder coated and debadged
@djflexure I’m just slightly envious I’ve held of and held of on those large tallboys.. bargain , and now all gone
FFS @p-jay ive just got some carbon rims I never realised aluminium rims where superb quality, ive dented enough clearly not finding the ones u mention
I’m sure you’ll enjoy them.
Dent a £50 Alu Rim, Crack a £500 carbon one... all part of the rich tapestry of life eh? 😉
Honestly, once you e stripped off the mounting headwear, linkages etc etc etc and you’re just left with the actual front and rear triangle (you knows the bits that would be carbon) they weight 7/10ths of sod all, I couldn’t imagine even losing half that weight would be meaningful.
What you didn't get the one with carbon linkages? Alloy rear ends are normally reserved for the cheaper ones too!!
@djflexure I’m just slightly envious I’ve held of and held of on those large tallboys.. bargain , and now all gone
Not too late for a Hightower though.
or in the spirit of this thread try the alloy Tallboy.
those hightowers are coloured (last seasons, gotta be matt black or grey for me), and if i got a tallboy i'd build it light, so alloy would be out the question :0)
cracked carbon rims, thats what the lifetime guarantee is for..
cracked carbon rims, thats what the lifetime guarantee is for
Given the amount of them i've broken, that would still be a tedious process. And costly, as its (?) the same as their free bearings for life scheme. You still have to pay the labour to swap everything over.
Or I could have a decent set of aluminium wheels, which weighs less, rides nicer, last longer & when it does finally let go, cost me £50 to replace 🙂
Tbf, for 37mm wheels all up tape, valves the lot, 1720-1740g really isn’t bad. I think anyone would struggle to beat that in alloy. That sort of weight (while not super race fragile) would still be very acceptable with an ID 10mm smaller...
But wheels aren’t reall where we came in on this!