[Closed] a idea.........re classified scammers

I know when you are shafted you feel sick.
I like the premier only idea.
P.S. I've bought of Ton- headset (he changes stuff like the wind changes) and he has bought stuff of me(saddle). So the post on main forum idea is a slow - but effective way.

I shouldn't post on these threads I know, but....I still think by far the easiest approach is for sellars to encourage buyers to post their opinion on one of the sellars previous for sale threads. Sellars can then put a link to that thread on future posts. Of course a bad experience can also then be posted on that thread as well. It works ok on retrobike I think.

That particular for sale thread then becomes the sellars feedback thread for all future sales.

What about newly joined posters?

As in a feedback thread, good idea, works on other forums, could be a new section of the forum, would make it easier to find a user you want to check the feedback of

With new users you just have to bite the bullet & use your own judgement & get a phone number/address

I have never had a bad experience. Is it really that common..?

Though I would like to see someones post count by their name.

There's quite a list this week. Annoyingly - friend of the magazine JoB is playing games with people's cash. If they can't control their own mates - I wouldn't hold out much hope for any help from ST.

It is bullploppy.

Moseymtb it forces new sellars to declare that they are, and this is a warning to buyers. Of course once they have sold something then that first post becomes their feedback thread.

Orangista; no need for a separate section. Just use one of the previous for sale threads.

This approach ca be purely voluntary as well, and could be explained by a sticky at the top of the section

I have built two 2nd hand mtb's for my mates using parts bought off this forum. Never had a bad experience, infact I think almost every part I've bought has arrived within a couple of days of me sending the seller the money aswell.

I had a little go at posting a "thanks" on sale threads ayr or so ago (don't buy much so maybe only 2-3 times). Sort of chickened out at the 1st pain-in-the-arse experience - wasn't a major point but did piss me off. Reckon I'd have started a bit of a squabble and just didn't seem worth it. (seller was & is a regular poster on all boards)

i like the sound of this. maybe stick a sticky up andy?

Andy - It's a simple effective idea.
If it becomes a sticky - one could email old buyers for a recommendation, paste in thread.
"All arrived A1" hardly takes 10 seconds to do.

Why doesn't the seller stick a reference up? A few people on here have met me, ridden with me and bought from me - not that I sell much - and vice versa.

i always tell people who buy from me to ask on the forum about my credentials.

Its down to the Big Wheels at STW Towers to implement as a sticky. There only needs to be one sticky explaining the approach. Individuals previous for sale threads that become their feeback would soon dissappear down the pages but would be accessable by the link at the bottom of future for sale threads.

I can understand if STW doesn't go for the idea as it could lead to potential squabbles and might need additional moderating. But I suppose they could recruit additional moderators (from those people that stalk the classifides all the time 😆 and so are on there anyway).

I think its a good idea.
Majority of folk on here are top people, but something to weed out the chancers as they crop up, would be good.

I buy from Ton

he's like a secondhand CRC 😉

I always check the sellers previous posts to get an idea of what they're like. If they've tried to rip people off before then it would probably be evident in replies to their posts. It's no guarantee but it helps I think. So far I've found sellers to be very helpful and true to their word.

big_n_daft - Member
I buy from Ton

he's like a secondhand CRC

Aye so have I a few times and he is a top guy too 😀 . Maybe we should start a thread called "Whos bought from Ton". Should make a couple of hundred posts in an hour 😉

Strangely, I've never bought anything from Ton, but I have sold to him.

If I buy anything now from the classified I never [i]gift[/i], I just add the fee to the total amount. I assume that way I have some comeback through Paypal?!

All it takes is to post on their classified thread

"Pain in the derrière" or "good guy"

anyone wanting to Buy merely looks at previous thread and sees "pain in the ass" or "good guy"

So thats the answer - just post on the thread the outcome of the deal

TJ if buyers post on one of the sellars threads only it keeps all the feedback in the same place. Heres an example from retrobike (Dan if reading this hope you dont mind the free good character reference 😀 ) [url= http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10110&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 ]HERE[/url] from someone who also sellsstuff here.

Retrobike use a separate forum but I dont think thats necessary. Anyway STW could always trial it for 6 months and see if it works.

People can't even be bothered to tell you stuffs arrived these days so adding to the old fs thread will be beyond them. I just check sellers history and see past deals. If they are new I decide to take the chance or not, usually not. Being a premier member gives me a slight bit more confidence in them tho I'm not sure why

I think the references are a good idea but the thread may get a bit of a handfull after a while. I think that trading should be restricted to Premier members only. People are a lot likely to mess a buyer around if they know that their personal details are known to STW. Also the people that are premier members tend to have a little more emotional investment in this place and therefore are less likely to mess someone around.

Andy

Good point Firestarter. I always follow-up with "it's arrived". It's only polite.

Andyhilton - I'm not premier, though I am a mag subscriber. Please can I be allowed to sell the odd thing; otherwise the garage might get out of hand.

Iain

think that trading should be restricted to Premier members only.

I disagree (but then I'm not a Premier member, so I'm going to). I've been knocking about on STW for years, prior to the xmas hack etc and I'm not sure that paying £££ necessarily equates to having any more / less emotional / non-financial investment in the forum and community.

I think the current system is ok, people just need to exercise common sense. In the main it works alright - there are a few bad instances but then the same is true of ebay / lfgss classifieds etc etc. If someone is determined to rip people off there is depressingly little you can do about it. When I buy / sell on here I certainly try and check that the person is known / isn't just a 'trader' etc. There are forum plugins that give you the feedback system (along with PM's etc), it's up to STW if they want to implement but I'm not sure exactly how it differs from just spending a couple of minutes checking someone's history to see how long they've been about / trying to get a handle on whether or not they're likely to do a runner.

FWIW - I think STW having their personal details is largely irrelevant as it seems to me that in most instances seller's who mess people around / scam have their details found out pretty quickly anyway. Everyone knew Lee Anderson's name / workplace etc (I think that was what he was called) when he ripped people off, I'm not sure it's much of a disincentive to be honest...

I'm a fan of the way Retrobike does it. A simple feedback forum where people say nice things about eachother and a "bad trader" thread - which has very little going on. The folks over there are great!
It's pretty rare that I've had any trouble buying or selling, just the odd item which doesn't come up to expectation, which I just put down to experience and don't deal with the seller again. Never felt the need to grumble.

I too disagree that only paid up members should be able to trade - I wouldn't 'distrust' someone just because they haven't paid STW towers a sub....
I think a lot of people have 'been around' long enough for there to be a massive audit trail. those with less 'presence' - just ask about?

DrP

I think the references are a good idea but the thread may get a bit of a handfull after a while. I think that trading should be restricted to Premier members only.

Andyhilton, if you want to only buy from premier members then you're free to make that choice at the moment, no need for a change- just don't try to dictate to others. I'd prefer a broader base to the market, and am happy to rely on my own nous as to who to buy from.

Not sure why Ton keeps popping up saying 'look at me, check out my feedback' - we all know what he's like to deal with- he's either got a huge ego and can't function without attention, or is planning a massive scam in the near future.

If someone is selling what you want at the price you want to pay then you take that as a start point and use common sense and care to do the transaction. There's always a point at which you feel exposed, but who in their right mind would trade >£100 with someone they either hadn't heard of or didn't know of, or who they had failed to make any kind of connection with?

Of course the best scammers will be very convincing, I'm sure. Caveat emptor and all that.

Feedback on the FS post is a good idea but only if people use it.

vinneyh and igm - The premier members idea is just that,an idea.

If you're happy with the way things are at the moment, then that's fine. All this thread is doing is discussing improvements to the way that trading operates at the moment. There are a couple of people who are significant amounts out of pocket at the moment. My guess is that you guys haven't lost out on a deal yet. If you had it may colour your opinion.

Is there another way that people who wish to use the classifieds can be protected a little more than they are currently?

There's really no need to be having a pop at Ton though is there?

DrP - I wouldn't necessarily distrust someone because they are not a premier member but it does help if they are. Now, wether there is another visual indicator that people could have by their name to signify that they are verified in someway? That couldn't be a bad thing surely?

The only thing I'd change on the classifieds is I'd introduce a '3 strikes & you're out' policy

If something hasn't sold after it's been posted up 3 times, move on to ebay or something, I'm sick of seeing the same over-priced tat recycled every day for fortnight 🙂

Some kind of Feedback system is a very good idea.

I've bought and sold stuff for years in the Classifieds- and only lately had a VERY bad experience with a regular seller that 'trades' on STW.

I sent several emails to the STW Moderators about the fact that this seller was selling broken, damaged and defective goods on STW plus stuff that was older than claimed in his ads - yet passing it all off as in perfect working order. Effectively, he's abusing STW with fraudulent goods/selling practices.

I got NO RESPONSE WHATSOEVER from the STW Mods - the impression I am left with is that they just don't give a toss.

By the way, the seller was Freeform5Spot and after investigation, it transpires he has previous negative history selling on this Forum.

If you're reading this Peter - you are welcome to contact me to finally settle the matter.

I have a list of people I wont deal with, either because they have previous or they've made it clear in other posts about how they deal with issues

Freeform5Spot is on my list purely because of previous complaints [rightly or wrongly] people have made against him

mmm. Freeform5spot is top of my list to not trade with. I remember the bustafajones problems.

Just a quick response to show that we do care...

The Classifieds is an interesting monster. One one hand, it's a hugely busy trading area where thousands of people happily trade stuff from their sheds. Although we encourage people to make donations towards the server costs of running this all for free, far fewer than 1% do so. Considering that there is, on average, around £60,000 of goods on every page of the forum, it seems odd that we get around £30 a month in donations. It's not surprising that our volunteer moderators can't follow up every complaint about a potentially suspect dealer - and many of the ones that we have spent time looking into have turned out to be a slack seller who took a week or two to get to the post office.

Sites like ebay charge a fair whack for people to list products, for which you get a feedback system and some kind of buyer protection. Free classifieds, like Loot, or in your local paper charge the buyer (via buying the thing) or the seller (for listing it) and offer no come back at all.

To instigate some sort of feedback system is going to cost us a lot in programming time. Anyway, keep those suggestions coming. We are listening...

"sc-xc - Member
mmm. Freeform5spot is top of my list to not trade with. I remember the bustafajones problems."

Ditto, where does he get all those bikes and parts from?

I've bought a couple of things from freeform5spot and never had a problem, in fact he has been very business like. I assume that is because selling bike parts is his business and considering he looks to have broken about 10 or 15 bikes in the last month for parts I'd say that conclusiion seems valid.

I assume that is because selling bike parts is his business and considering he looks to have broken about 10 or 15 bikes in the last month for parts I'd say that conclusiion seems valid.

So they are Trade ads?

Another forum I go onto do something where members have to have posted at least 50 posts and been a member of the forum for 30 days. They also have a feedback system like they do on ebay. I found that the 50 posts and being a member for 30 days does the job of keeping the scammers out.

sc-xc -Of course they are. I have bought off Pete too with no problems. However I do think that there should be clarity when purchasing something. How can he vouch for the condition of something if he's just stripped a bike he's never ridden etc.

As per, the Mods won't act decisively and either flag him up as a trader or ban him for trading. People are getting shafted.

The thing that 5spot seems to have going for him is he seems a really decent bloke and so any censure would be harsh but as AndyH says a touch more clarity would be nice.

i've just had a clear out. sold a few bits. everything was posted the day after i got payment or on monday if i got payment over the weekend. i treat people how i wish to be treated! that goes for the piss takers as well.

personally i wouldn't send money off to someone who only posts on the classifieds. wouldn't of helped with llyons though. if i wanted it that bad i'd go meet them.

@chipps

and i donated

The feedback system would have helped with Lyons though. Myself and at least 2 others have been messed around by him.

"JonR - Member
The thing that 5spot seems to have going for him is he seems a really decent bloke and so any censure would be harsh but as AndyH says a touch more clarity would be nice. "

Clarity to his trading status and the origin of all the stuff I would say.

Those that have bought stuff from freeform5spot and not had issues are lucky - there are several horror stories such as mine.

Chipps- we're not talking about someone who's just tardy getting to the Post Office. Looking at the sheer quantity of stuff freeform5spot sells on this Forum he is clearly a 'Trader' operating a business on STW. Furthemore, he's doing it fraudulently - selling broken, damaged and not as described goods in my case (and others it appears!)

He sold me a Turner 5 Spot frame which he advertised as a 2010 frame (a new warranty replacement). It was in fact a 2009 frame, easily identifiable from the serial number and earlier frame features. So at a minimum he overstated/misrepresented the truth.

The Lyrik forks that came with it did not work properly and when sent to TF Tuned for inspection turned out to be completely ****ed, requiring £225+ of repair work. The Mission Control cartridge is completely knackered and would require a further £120 replacement, which I did not bother with.

Furthermore, the Specialized Command Post, also included in the stuff I bought from him, was quite clearly broken and wouldn't go up and down at all. When I sent it to Specialized they said it had suffered a major impact while in the low position and required £65 worth or repairs, new head etc, which I paid for.

All this was in May this year.

Over the course of the past 7 months I have called, emailed, texted and pleaded with Peter Gratwick/freeform5spot to try to settle the matter. I offered to split the repair costs 50/50 wit him, which he initially refused, then agreed, the refused, etc.. I also emailed the STW Mods twice about this, as I think it is simply unacceptable behaviour for the STW forum to be abused in this way.

After 5 months freeform5spot agreed to a partial refund of £60, promising a further £60 which I agreed to in full and final settlement of the matter. Of course, I'm still waiting for that (no surprise) - with no hope whatsoever of getting it.

I paid £1,500 to freeform5spot for a frame that was not as advertised, was missing a crucial part needed to even make it work, with forks that were broken, a seatpost that was broken - I've spent over £1,800 so far and yet he continues to trade on this forum.

Peter Gratwick/freeform5spot has given me the run around for 7 months and even threatened to set his "Family Solicitor" upon me!

People like him let STW down.

Exactly that. Something along the lines of the truth

'Bought this bike to split. All components look to be in 'X' condition but obviously having used these components I cannot vouch for there true condition'

Except on seatposts, saddles etc. Stuff that is what it is. Not forks and complicated expensive stuff.

@digger90

copy that post and paste it on everyone of freeform5spots for sale posts. 😈

Those that have bought stuff from freeform5spot and not had issues are lucky - there are several horror stories such as mine.

Chipps- we're not talking about someone who's just tardy getting to the Post Office. Looking at the sheer quantity of stuff freeform5spot sells on this Forum he is clearly a 'Trader' operating a business on STW. Furthemore, he's doing it fraudulently - selling broken, damaged and not as described goods in my case (and others it appears!)

He sold me a Turner 5 Spot frame which he advertised as a 2010 frame (a new warranty replacement). It was in fact a 2009 frame, easily identifiable from the serial number and earlier frame features. So at a minimum he overstated/misrepresented the truth.

The Lyrik forks that came with it did not work properly and when sent to TF Tuned for inspection turned out to be completely ****ed, requiring £225+ of repair work. The Mission Control cartridge is completely knackered and would require a further £120 replacement, which I did not bother with.

Furthermore, the Specialized Command Post, also included in the stuff I bought from him, was quite clearly broken and wouldn't go up and down at all. When I sent it to Specialized they said it had suffered a major impact while in the low position and required £65 worth or repairs, new head etc, which I paid for.

All this was in May this year.

Over the course of the past 7 months I have called, emailed, texted and pleaded with Peter Gratwick/freeform5spot to try to settle the matter. I offered to split the repair costs 50/50 wit him, which he initially refused, then agreed, the refused, etc.. I also emailed the STW Mods twice about this, as I think it is simply unacceptable behaviour for the STW forum to be abused in this way.

After 5 months freeform5spot agreed to a partial refund of £60, promising a further £60 which I agreed to in full and final settlement of the matter. Of course, I'm still waiting for that (no surprise) - with no hope whatsoever of getting it.

I paid £1,500 to freeform5spot for a frame that was not as advertised, was missing a crucial part needed to even make it work, with forks that were broken, a seatpost that was broken - I've spent over £1,800 so far and yet he continues to trade on this forum.

Peter Gratwick/freeform5spot has given me the run around for 7 months and even threatened to set his "Family Solicitor" upon me!

People like him let STW down.

This has soured my view of him somewhat. If it were me I'm petty enough to spoil every classified post he makes on here and on bike radar where he post as ireallylikebikes with a warning that he is a trader and a scammer.

I have started to do something like that - a much smaller, edited version.

Am expecting a letter from his Solicitors imminently as a result of these posts.... 😀 which I look forward to ignoring as he has done me! 😈

Doh. I'll admit I have started feeling a bit more wary when looking at stuff on the classifieds - to the point where even the way the seller describes the thing they're selling makes me think 'hmmmm'.

I'm currently going through the process with freeform - so far it's all been fine and he's been quite flexible. I'll report back either way when it's complete.

Here's an idea which is sort of pinched from RetroBike. When I bought or sold stuff from there, once finished the guy asked if I'd mind posting on his feedback thread - this was just a thread he's started a while back with the title ""AUsername" - feedback". And everyone who bought from him or sold to him posts on there. The thread has a static URL so can infinitely be referred back to and searched for. No extra work on anyone's part. Obviously if the user doesn't start a thread themselves, someone else can start it on their behalf, as long as the title contains Username & feedback, its easily searchable.

Whats not to like? Who's gonna start their feedback thread first....?

I can understand folk who've been burned by dodgy ads etc objecting to him operating some sort of business as it's against the clearly stated rules but if this were to be applied there'd be quite a few sellers in the firing line. Fair enough, maybe, when you read the rules.

But then there is one guy who answers each "what bike for..." thread with blatant plugs for bikes he has a vested interest in selling...I'm not in anyway slagging him, his bikes or his habit of doing this, or suggesting he sells dodgy stuff{unlike 5Spot allledgedly} just wondering if this is not in some way a trade ad in stealth mode?

Here's an idea which is sort of pinched from RetroBike. When I bought or sold stuff from there, once finished the guy asked if I'd mind posting on his feedback thread - this was just a thread he's started a while back with the title ""AUsername" - feedback". And everyone who bought from him or sold to him posts on there. The thread has a static URL so can infinitely be referred back to and searched for. No extra work on anyone's part. Obviously if the user doesn't start a thread themselves, someone else can start it on their behalf, as long as the title contains Username & feedback, its easily searchable.

Whats not to like? Who's gonna start their feedback thread first....?

If you did this on the bike forum or the chat forum they would start to spam up the board a bit but if another forum were opened for it in the same way that the new wanted forum has sprung up then I reckon it could be a winner and wouldn't take much programming time. Up to the mods I guess but sounds to me like the easiest option so far.

Chipps are you still there? Any further comments?

Andyhilton -
Member
The feedback system would have helped with Lyons though. Myself and at least 2 others have been messed around by him.

that idea about a feedback subsection is the best so far. only problem i can see is that do threads get deleted after so long?

maybe the mods could trial it for a while as i would have thought it would be a 2 minute job to sort out (i could be horribly wrong though)

Peter Gratwick was bustafajone's name as well.
What a coincidence eh 😕

Passing broken stuff off and getting people to pay good money for it is tantamount to stealing.

If more people donated to the stw beer fund when having sold stuff as chipps has said (I have done a few times as it goes) then they might be more proactive in sorting the problems on the classifieds?
Having said that feel for Digger, not nice that at all.

For me I think this should be a sticky -

[url= http://www.rolbe.com/paypal.htm ]Paypal Calculator[/url]

At least then you'll have some sort of protection.

And if they dont accept paypal, then no sale. I also check other forums to see if their stuff is for sale there too.

digger90 - good to see you present your biased side so well!

you forgot to add the telephone conversations we had about the frame when we discussed that it was a warranty replacement that was recieved directy from Turner in 2010. You were OK with this so not an issue.

The 'cruicial' parts was one nut for the rear brake caliper. These were lost in transit as were on the frame at the time of posting. I offered immediatly to send you money to cover it. you wanted me to do it. I went to a bike tree who looked into it but by the time they got back to me you had got one made for you.

I had had no issues with the post.

The forks were bought off here (in good faith) to go with the frame to take to the alps. never ridden - as I had told you. You wanted the frame pronto so I sold it to you and built up my BFe. I contacted the person I bought off but that was evidently not going to result in getting it resolved. No point naming and shaming.

As for the family solicitor - I asked his advice after you repeatedly made long winded threats to go to the small claims court (as is your right).

I have sold to loads of people on here (including most of the naysayers) with no real problems - sending out stuff ahead of payment on many occassions to people on here who post regularly.

I have also met with and have good relationships with a lot of folk off here.

I agree that a feedback system is a great idea btw.

Err. Are you sure you meant to post under that account?

To clarify. just in case you are including me in the naysayers. I have absolutely no problems with you trading on here. As long as the ads clearly identify that you are a trader and you make some contribution. It is very apparent that you buy and sell bikes to fund your hobby and therefore you are unable to accurately describe the condition of some of the parts and frames.

Andy

so just to clarify.............
is freeform5spot/bustafajones/peter gratwick the same person???

Yep - that's pretty obvious isn't it? Although he hasn't used the busta... account for nine months, until today. Why would you have two accounts?

It doesn't lend a lot of gravitas to your legitimacy when you post your rebuttal to allegations against yourself from an alternative account. The only reason anyone would have an alternative account would be a nefarious one surely?

Why would you have two accounts?

to scam or troll??? 8)

It appears that quite a few people have 2 or more accounts - for various reasons !!

One of the watch fan sites (TZ-UK) has a forum called Heros and Villains. It's pretty self-explanatory-people go on and drop a simple message after a trade. There's a massive preponderance of 'hero' threads and the occasional 'villain' thread tends to stick out like a sore thumb. I'd imagine it's a serious deterrent to people trying to misuse the forum. They also have a system where you can't post in the classifieds until you have 50 posts elsewhere.

The TZ site appears to work pretty well but in fairness Eddie doesn't have anything close to the traffic on here.

so who votes for a feedback subforum??? (cos this is a democracy :D)

I really like the idea of a feedback thread, maybe its own section above next to the "for sale" and "wanted" sections.

It makes us police it ourselves and do it respectivly.

I very rarely sell/buy in here but when I do I'm more than happy to give as many resonable details as posible. Link to facebook, my home address etc.

I also think it makes a difference knowing how much imput a member has to a forum, For example myself, ton, AndyHilton and SC-XC on this thread all have the premier member symbol which shows our commitment, Would it be possible to have a "post count" like many other forums, even if just in the Profile section. I would be happier buying from a regular poster or a premier member.

I really don't see what is wrong with posting on the for sale thread the outcome of the transaction - both sides could do this.

Then when you buy something you search for the previous threads and you get to read the feedback

No new forum required, no programming, just a post needed on the for sale thread.

Good Idea TJ.

Timely of this thread to appear as I'm going through a bit of a nightmare at the moment.

Does anybody know "clive" off here?

I paid for some XTR cranks off here about 15 days ago and apart from a host of excuses, nothings appeared yet. They're literally the last thing needed to finish a bike off for the Mrs and I had this week off to take her out on it but it's a bit difficult without any cranks...

Click - [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/2010-fox-36-van-rc2-316-joplin-4-xtr-175-crank-arms ]Original sale thread[/url]

Any input from someone that knows him or dealt with him before would be great.

Well, he was on here 4hrs and 13 mins ago according to his profile.

I think a feedback thread is better than nothing. However if the mods can work with this and help improve the forum then that would be great.

Sort Jo Burt out while you're at it!