[Closed] 853 Tubing! Tell me...

[url= http://reynoldstechnology.biz/our_materials_853.php ]http://reynoldstechnology.biz/our_materials_853.php[/url]

I's light and strong ,way stronger than 531 and I can't break that offroad .What doesn't he like about it?

It has added pixie dust.

My 853 inbred feels the same as my standard ones...

This sums it up well. You can see that many people desperately want to believe the hype 😉

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/853-is-it-really-better

TBH there are so many 853 tube options that a custom built frame will feel different to an off the shelf built for everyone type of frame. I agree that an off the shelf frame built with 853 will feel no different to an inferior tube if built with the same diameter tubing and geometry but a well built custom frame with tubing to match your weight and riding style will.

It's just light. Best of luck trying to make something the weight and strength of a Soul out of bog standard cromo. Not convinced there's anything magic about the feel though.

Course, some bikes fail to even get the light weight out of it, like the new Pipedream, they prove nicely there's nothing magic about 853.

Its a nice sticker

It rides better ,one of my friends has just changed from a Charge to a Pace 853 frame and he says the ride is amazing He should know as he runs my local bike shop and has ridden most bikes known to man .I can tell the difference instantly between an old 531 mtb and 4130 gaspipe it is far more forgiving quicker on rough stuff and far less knackering to ride it is far more than just a sticker

it's very strong, so you can make the tube walls a bit thinner, which makes the frame a bit lighter, and a bit more flexible.

that's about it...

Edric neatly demonstrates the bike industry standard 😉

It is another one of those small variables that makes up the whole experience. Geometry, wheel choice, tyre choice and pressure, fork setup and bar and stem length could easily mask something so subtle so I think you would have to really know your onions to hand on heart know it was the type of steel that was making the difference.

That said I love my 853 Niner Sir9 but that is certainly no proof - might have been nice made out of gas pipe.

Years ago, I got a frame repainted and rebuilt it with exactly the same components as before. Told my (very experienced cyclist) mate that I'd got a new frame. He rode it and commented about how much better it was than the old one. It's amazing the different a coat of paint or a sticker can make to even experienced riders if they think they know what to expect...

http://reynoldstechnology.biz/faqs/materials/4

"The chemistry of air-hardening steels like our 853 and 631 means that not only are they stronger than typical chrome-alloy 4130 type steels, but after TIG o r MIG welding, the heat-affected zone (HAZ) will be significantly stronger due to the grain structure formed on cooling in air. The positive result from this is a higher fatigue life for the joint - usually 30-60% better than an equivalent Cr-Mo joint. So less material can be used to achieve a particular target fatigue performance."

convert - Member
It is another one of those small variables that makes up the whole experience. Geometry, wheel choice, tyre choice and pressure, fork setup and bar and stem length could easily mask something so subtle so I think you would have to really know your onions to hand on heart know it was the type of steel that was making the difference.

That said I love my 853 Niner Sir9 but that is certainly no proof - might have been nice made out of gas pipe.

Swapped all the bits from a Soma Juice (presige Tange) to a Niner Sir9 and the ride was massively different. The reviews had talked about feeling like it had an inch of suspension travel at the back which I thought was absolute 8ollocks, but the proof is in the pudding, it is a far more 'comfortable' ride.

Are some frames not made with just an 853 front triangle, guess that could be why some don't feel so much different to cheaper tubed siblings?

From my personal (lay) perspective....

My Soul is a wonderfully compliant ride that whips up climbs and is very forgiving on the downs - I agree with Pike ^^ that it does almost feel that you could be riding a soft tail.

My Pipedream is far harsher. More akin to one of my non 853 framed hardtails.

I guess though they both should be pretty tough.

Most 853 frames use non-853 stays because there's no real advantage (Cy explains why in the other thread).

You can't compare a Soma Juice and a Niner SIR on the basis of the tubing used when they're not remotely the same.

Tube Size has greater effect than material.

But stronger materials means thinner/smaller tubes can be used.

853 is stronger than everything else (except 953) allowing designer more flexibility in design. (i.e. for more strength, more stiffness, or light-weight or comfort etc)

Hence why 2 different bikes made from 853 can feel radically different.

It's still a nice sticker and a good industry standard for top end quality steel.

😀

Reynolds 853 used to be just the seat, top and down tubes but
853 seatstays & chainstays are listed

Available but still not widely used and even if they were, other tubes have at least as much influence on how the bike feels (springiness) as the stays which are relatively short and well supported (triangulated). Plus, unless you use really very thin walled ones, chances are they'll just be stronger rather than more flexy.

I can tell the difference instantly between an old 531 mtb and 4130 gaspipe it is far more forgiving quicker on rough stuff and far less knackering to ride it is far more than just a sticker

you might want to revisit that comment............

5** reynold tubes ARE 4130! In fact there was an article/info page/press release/interview thingy on the on-one site about why the inbreds are made out of what they call DN6 steel. Turns out 520/525 are just the same thing one made in tiawan and the other in birmingham and the shop mkaing it in Tiawan just pays $5 to use the reynolds 520 badge on its own 4130 tubes which in turn are made to a higher spec than the reynolds spec for 525. So the on one DN6 is actualy 'beter' than the 525 coming out of Birmingham (if it were built to the exact standards). But I suspect Birmingham 525 is probably just 4130 as well.

"its own 4130 tubes which in turn are made to a higher spec than the reynolds spec for 525"

not quite - Founderland make it to Reynolds' specs for dimensional accuracy and tolerances etc so they should be the same, taking wear of dies etc into account

531 is mag-moly, 525 + 520 + DN6 + 4130 are all cro-molys. different alloys so different properties for elongation, UTS etc. 5** = not sure, posts's been swear-edited maybe!?

there is no way to tell between 531 and 4130 if all tube dims are the same, they will ride the same. only difference is durability. so what people feel as a beter tube is in reality a different tube dimension flexing more or less, depending on your preferences.

Isnt 4130 just the industry standard code for chromo in the states?I can tell the difference instantly between an old 531 mtb and 4130 gaspipe it is far more forgiving quicker on rough stuff and far less knackering to ride it is far more than just a sticker

No my Overburys Fellrider is a much nicer more forgiving ride than a Gaspipe Diamondback I have

But if that's not just in your mind, it doesn't mean it's because of the Overbury's specifc tubing model itself compared to the Diamondback's 🙄

The two bikes don't have the same geometry, design, tube diameters, wall thicknesses, butting and so on and that's before even considering the different tyres, components and so on.

It's not in my mind and after 32 years of cycling I think I can tell if one bike rides better than another based on the tubeset.my Ishiwata tubed tt bike is better than the Columbus one I used previously.My 501 mtb feels dead compared to 531.I know my steel frames!

clubbers right, 4130 is only gaspipe if you spec a 38x1.2mm PG top and down tube, for example. if you could buy 532 in that size it would feel crap too.

dimensions affect ride feel, material affects strength.

never ridden 532 😆

You should try - it's springier than 853, stiffer, lighter and faster. And more comfortable, better at absorbing shock and 152% better at transmitting power.

Does it make up for the fact that I am old and slow though?

I stand corrected I misread 531 as 525/520

And having ridden a DMR switchback and On-One 456 back to back with identical builds (everything was swapped over) I can safely say the 456 and DMR ride completely differenly. Funny that becasue if it were down to the [s]steel[/s] [b]sticker[/b] they should be entirely the same (ones 520, the other DN^, both rebadged 4130).

Hard to say.

Actually no, I'll go for the magazine/mtb industry myth route and say yes it definitely will and you'll definitely be able to feel the difference despite what all the material science/etc may say.

Pixie dust y'see 😉

Edric, with respect, the sticker isn't affecting what you feel, it's the frame's design. you can feel a difference in the frames yes, but if you made that 501 frame from 531 and didn't change any dimensions at all, it'd feel the same. the 531 version would probably last longer on an EN jig tho.

worth reading Scott Nichol's metalurgy for cyclists essays online - very well written frame engineering fudamentals.

532 is the new 531, it's stiffer 😉

152% better at transmitting power.

Now that is just plain bollocks, it's 163.5% better.

It rides better ,one of my friends has just changed from a Charge to a Pace 853 frame and he says the ride is amazing He should know as he runs my local bike shop and has ridden most bikes known to man.

So much farkin bollocks on this thread I barely dare add to it... 853 is 'stronger' but it depends what you do with it. two frames made of the same profile tubings (diameter, wall thickness and butt length) one in 853 and one in non-branded 4130 will ride exactly the same. the 853 one will probably last longer - that is it.

I can tell the difference instantly between an old 531 mtb and 4130 gaspipe it is far more forgiving quicker on rough stuff and far less knackering to ride it is far more than just a sticker

531 is 4130 you asshat. again - it's down to tube profiles and frame design. equally true - you could have a frame from 853 that rides like shite and an 'unbranded' butted 4130 frame that rides beautifully, there are some examples around.

thisisnotaspoon, that ride experiment says it all huh.

If you are correct then an 18/23 hi ten steel road frame would feel the same as 753 if built to the same dimensions and angles?

If you include butting profiles, diameters and wall thicknesses then yes. And it'd weigh the same. It'd be weaker though.

531 is 4130

No it's not 531 is not chromo its manganese molybdenum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel

4130 contains a small (1%) amount of chrome IIRC in comparison

And having ridden a DMR switchback and On-One 456 back to back with identical builds (everything was swapped over) I can safely say the 456 and DMR ride completely differenly. Funny that becasue if it were down to the steel sticker they should be entirely the same (ones 520, the other DN^, both rebadged 4130).

Both frame designs especially the rear are very different, the DMR switchback was made from far too thin a profile tubes IMO, the things cracked, bent, folded, dented and exploded into a puff of smoke as soon as look at them.

As it's a weaker tube wouldn't it react to power input and stress differently though and therefore not be as springy which you would notice?

The other point to consider is just how many of the tubes need to be 853 in order to apply the sticker?

Pretty sure you can get away with a couple of 853 tubes and the rest can be whatever the remaining budget allows for… correct me if I’m wrong but most sold as “853” frames are only partly 853, that said if you do use it for just a couple of main tubes the weight saving is probably not totally insignificant, bit of a cost benefit calculation really…

Edric 64 - Member
As it's a weaker tube wouldn't it react to power input and stress differently though and therefore not be as springy which you would notice?

You're confusing stiffness and strength.

Both will 'feel' exactly the same because they have the same stiffness and therefore will flex exactly the same. Or at least they will until you load the weaker frame to a point where it bends permanently or snaps.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the diving board analogy - it's exactly that.

Take two diving boards made with identical dimensions but from different materials that have the same stiffness but different strengths.

Load both with, say 100kg and they'll both bend exactly the same amount.

Add a further 100kg to them both and the weaker one snaps while the stronger one just bends further.

everyone, apart from those that have provided informed answers not the usual questions - proceed to scott nichols' metalurgy for cyclists essays.. google will find them

you will be a more informed rider for reading them, i promise.

http://www.63xc.com/scotn/metal.htm BTW 😉

It's been proven that humans, including experts in their field, are incapable of being totally impartial when it comes to judging a quality, for example how well two people can play the violin, or in this case why one material rides/feels better than another. So, if you know before you ride two identical bikes, with identical geometry and identical build kits, that the blue bike is supposed to be better than the red one or uses a material you prefer, the chances are that you will judge the blue bike to be better.

clubbers post on page one illustrates this perfectly.

Both frame designs especially the rear are very different, the DMR switchback was made from far too thin a profile tubes IMO, the things cracked, bent, folded, dented and exploded into a puff of smoke as soon as look at them.

Really, wish you'd told me that before I bought one and spent the interveening time having an absolute blast on it in the Peaks/Lakes/south Derbyshire and more recently jump gulley at Swinley. On the other hand if you believe an 853 frame will help your riding, maybe its not for you.

bluebird, assume you mean this post

clubber - Member
Years ago, I got a frame repainted and rebuilt it with exactly the same components as before. Told my (very experienced cyclist) mate that I'd got a new frame. He rode it and commented about how much better it was than the old one. It's amazing the different a coat of paint or a sticker can make to even experienced riders if they think they know what to expect...

I still wind him up about it 🙂

IIRC the reason cy doesn't use 853 stays is that at the back end the tube dimensions are limited by stifness rather than strength so couldn't be any lighter if they were 853. Its not worth spending the extra on fancy material.

Cy:

"So after all the slagging we've just given cromoly, you're probably wondering why the rear end of the Soul is made out of the stuff instead of 853 now that 853 stays have become available (late 2005). Well, any structural problem is simply a matter of working to the limits of the material, and the rear end of the Soul is as strong and responsive as it can be through careful design and tube specification, backed up by more than 4 years of riding through prototyping and into production. Reynolds are only offering their 853 stays in the same profiles and wall thickness as our cromoly stays so they wouldn't any lighter, just an awful lot stronger (when our cromoly rear end is perfectly strong enough) and an awful lot more expensive. For the moment, we'll stick with what we've got. "

Really, wish you'd told me that before I bought one and spent the interveening time having an absolute blast on it in the Peaks/Lakes/south Derbyshire and more recently jump gulley at Swinley. On the other hand if you believe an 853 frame will help your riding, maybe its not for you.

Firstly I've had two Switchbacks crack at the seat tube and one that had a dented to tube from a very minor fall, OK that could happen to any bike but I've fallen off lots of bikes and that is the only one I have dented.

Secondly, There were quite a few Switchbacks that collapsed at the head tube early on.

Thirdly, I don't believe 853 is anything other than expensive steel and makes bugger all difference to the ride.

Fourthly, I now detest steel bikes in all their forms.

And all those who ride them, right, KT? 😉

****s the lot of them.

Firstly I've had two Switchbacks crack at the seat tube and one that had a dented to tube from a very minor fall, OK that could happen to any bike but I've fallen off lots of bikes and that is the only one I have dented.

Secondly, There were quite a few Switchbacks that collapsed at the head tube early on.

1) bought a bike a size too small after falling for the shorter is more hardcore magazine boloks by any chance?

2) first batch apparently had a dodgy gusset (fnar fnar) mitre or some such fault. And tended to be bought by people looking for a trailstar 2lb lighter. Later ones had no ISCG tabs to differentiate it as an 'XC' frame. Oddly 'quite a few' folded always leads back to that one video of a guy crashing one on you-tube.

Reynolds 531, 853 etc and Cromoly = Low alloy steels

http://aluminium.matter.org.uk/content/html/eng/default.asp?catid=89&pageid=2144417037

spoon - I think it's fair to say that a few did break and KT bought had the right sized one (he's too jey for anything too small). Pretty sure he never crashed it hard FWIW - again, too jey...

1) bought a bike a size too small after falling for the shorter is more hardcore magazine boloks by any chance?

I'm 6'2" frames(s) were 20", set up for XC, I don't do hardcore riding.

EDIT: Clubbers right, doesn't stop it making him a **** though. 😉

Recently gone from a Columbus Nemo tubed Cove HJ to an 853 maintubed Pipdream, not noticed any difference in ride, nor weight. Still a nice steel frame, but no advnatages over the Nemo tubing in how it feels to ride.

Thanks for the replys guys, really appreciate it. 😀