[Closed] 6lb steel frames...

rolling = tyres & or tubes, nowt else, unless your hubs are fubared.

Blue Pig boutique?

I thought boutique was custom loveliness such as a Yates ,Mather or Enigma custom build not mass produced in the far East like the pigs are

kudos100 - Member

My sovereign weighs a ton. The spot on geometry and the fact that I doubt I will ever break it makes up for it.

But does it ride like that because it's steel? Could an alu Sov do the same job and weigh far less?

Haven't got around to building my Surge yet, but if a steel mtb has the same type of ride as a steel road bike then I can see the characteristic ride might be worth the extra weight.

sluggish feeling when riding

Could it be the slack head angle? I think they're about 66 degrees or something like that. Maybe try some shorter forks.

whatnobeer - Member

if a steel mtb has the same type of ride as a steel road bike then I can see the characteristic ride might be worth the extra weight.

Hmm. What is that characteristic ride though? Different steel bikes ride very differently... I'm assuming you mean that stereotypical steel springiness/liveliness but a heavy steel frame has a lot of metal in it, which will often end up making it pretty stiff.

Lots of chat about this in the steel full suss thread, but this idea that steel rides one way and carbon rides one way and alu rides one way, is just not right.

From Surly -

Some people have been saying that 1x1 frames are heavy. Let's compare our 1x1 frame to some "really light" frames on the market.

For the below comparison I will ignore the obvious price-to-weight ratio differences.

For the below comparison I will ignore the obvious life expectancy differences.

For the below comparison I will ignore the obvious differences in ride characteristics.

For the below comparison I will ignore the obvious differences in intended use.

Keep in mind published weights are almost always B.S.

1x1 small (16" c-t) frame weighs 4.415 lbs. on our very accurate scale.
1x1 medium (18" c-t) frame weighs 4.960 lbs. on our very accurate scale.
1x1 large (20" c-t) frame weighs 4.995 lbs. on our very accurate scale.
Merlin's medium "Standard" Ti frame weighs a "published" 3.5lbs.
Ibis's 18.5" double-butted "Ti Mojo" weighs a "published" 3lbs.
Ibis's 18.5" butted aluminum "Alibi" frame weighs a "published" 4lbs.
Ibis's 18.5" double-butted cro-moly "Mojo" frame weighs a "published" 4lbs.
Ritchey's 19" P-20 frame weighs a "published" 3.4 lbs.
Wow, I guess the 1x1's ARE heavy!! But wait a minute, lightweights, racers and pretentious egomaniacs...

Again, price/weight ratio, ride characteristics, intended use, and durability aside...

If you build up a 18.5 lb. Ritchey P-20 single, you can build up a 20.06 lb. 1x1. If you build up a 18.1 lb. Ti Mojo single, you can build up a 19.66 lb. 1x1.

If you don't have a bunch of stupid-light parts and your mundane steel Ibis Mojo single weighs a whopping 24.5 pounds, your mundane, boring, stupid, heavy 1x1 single-speed bike will weigh a whopping 25.46 pounds. Waaaaah! Better get a Ti post, braaah!!

Get over it, people, the 1x1's ARE heavy, but you can still make a damn light bike out of one should you choose. Of course your Kevlarâ„¢-beaded 1.7" semi-slick tires won't look real good between those gaudy, over-manipulated chainstays, but what do we know?? And for the third time, I won't mention the RIDE, the LONGEVITY, the PRICE, or the INTENDED USE.

But does it ride like that because it's steel? Could an alu Sov do the same job and weigh far less?

I very much doubt it. It would be even harsher and still weigh loads.

I would not get too hung about the weight of a frame. If you are racing aand competative and are light yourself the start worry about weight. If you are 14st like me and not competative you have little to gain about by shaving a few lbs from your frame weight.

Also I have a couple of Pipedream frames in the shop they do not weight 6lbs. A modern P7 I think weighs about that but that because Orange have changed the P7 away from the purely XC bike that it once was. I have two old steel frames. One a Kona Lavadome/cindercone from 96 or thereabouts and another a Marin Palisades 89 single speed. Both are lighter than my Orange EVO2 single speed. It all depends on how you biuld a bike and what you plan to use it for.

well put bedmaker, for pointing out the Surly is quite light 😆

I ride bikes. I like riding bikes. I used to ride (many years ago) a very light KHS team made from steel tubing. I bended it. Replaced it with a DeKerf, which was a heavier frame, again made from steel. I rode that for about 10 years without bending it, and loved it. The current owner has had it for about three years, and loves it (and hasn't bent it).
I still ride a steel frame - a small Hummingbird. It has lovely light Magura Durins, carbon bars and seatpost and no gears.

I don't give a toss what it weighs.

It's a cracking ride. The seatpost and bars make it more comfortable, and possibly even a little lighter.

If I wanted lightweight, I'd work on the extra lard I'm carrying around myself first.

Don't sweat an extra pound or two of frame weight - worry about what it feels like to ride.

kudos100 - Member

I very much doubt it. It would be even harsher and still weigh loads.

Alu doesn't have to be harsh, it just often is- try an old Scandal frinstance, far more compliant than many (most?) modern steel frames. As for weighing loads, it'd be somewhere under 4lbs most likely for equivalent strength.

How about carbon? Save 3lbs, and lose that harshness?

Good luck making an alu frame Sovereign equivalent under 4lb. Its a bit stronger than a Scandal. And good luck finding someone who believes you to ride it

loum - Member

Good luck making an alu frame Sovereign equivalent under 4lb.

Sub-4lbs = Mmmbop, Kinesis Pha5e, Genesis Abyss... Chameleon, if it weren't for the daft EBB, IIRC. That's the first 4 that came to mind as comparisons and all in the right ballpark. Add half a pound for a Stiffee (despite ancient design) or Troof. Or, y'know, just pick some other random comparable alu hardtails and look them up.

And then, add in the fact that most owners won't get near the strength limits of any of these anyway.

I've just built an Orange Pure 7 on Pikes. Guess what? It ain't light, even on Pro2 / XC717s.

But then it wouldn't be... Pikes... Deore cranks... heavy seatpost and saddle... The list goes on.

It may well be 30-odd lbs but it rides so well. And the U-turn forks make climbing easy.

not equivalent, so not relevant

What exactly isn't equivalent about those? All bombproof long travel frames with the exact same remit as the Sov. (Also rated for more fork than Evil'll recommend you use a Sov with)

and none of them under 4lbs either

Now that's just plain wrong.

ok, just checked. mmbop 3.7lbs claimed weight. fair enough
kinesis pha5e, troof, chameleon all ~4.8
stiffee is a nice bike though (of them lot)

Alu doesn't have to be harsh, it just often is- try an old Scandal frinstance

Except they are made of scandium, scandium rides different to aluminium.

Why on earth would you want to ride a 30 lbs hardtail? I am really struggling to find a reason why.

Chameleon comes in over 4lbs because of the EBB but without it, it'd be under. Pha5e is 3.95lbs for a medium. Abyss is apparently 3.5lbs for a small.

Not going to talk about carbon? Evil reckon it makes sense for their biggest, toughest frame...

skywalker - Member

Except they are made of scandium, scandium rides different to aluminium.

Just another aluminium alloy.

Just another aluminium alloy.

That is (up to 50%) stronger, lighter (because they can use less material) and has riding characteristics similar to steel.

Nothing like 6061 or 7005 then.

skywalker - Member
Why on earth would you want to ride a 30 lbs hardtail? I am really struggling to find a reason why.

I don't think I'm the only one in this category?

Ali AND 30lbs.

[img] [/img]

slainte 😀 rob

2721.55422g

just [u]checked[/u].
kinesis pha5e, troof, chameleon all ~4.8

Good night troll.

Why on earth would you want to ride a 30 lbs hardtail? I am really struggling to find a reason why.

My 30+lb lump

[img] [/img]

Because I'm a heavy, a plough-through-it rider and want something that ain't gonna break.
I don't think I'm the only one in this category?

Ali AND 30lbs.

Because it's massive fun, confidence inspiring and I'm not racing XC with it.

Whats to say you won't have more fun on a lighter, more nimble HT, and that you would break one?

Learn to ride properly and you won't need to rely on scaffold tubed frames.

skywalker - Member
Whats to say you won't have more fun on a lighter, more nimble HT, and that you would break one?

Learn to ride properly and you won't need to rely on scaffold tubed frames.

Horses for courses. Run what you brung.

slainte 🙂 rob

skywalker some of us like to go downhill fast, not mince around trying not to puncture our flyweight tyres.

Since when did lighter=more nimble?

loum... The Pha5e weight I'm quoting is as weighed by WMB. The Mmmbop and Abyss alone prove the point though. And I mentioned the Troof as it proves there's still a big weight saving to be had (around 25%) even with a massive hoofer of a frame. So I'm really not sure what the argument is all about here tbh.

Chameleon, it turns out I'm wrong on- the weight I'd found is on the SC website but it's for the old pre-EBB one- then I'd taken off the weight of the EBB 😳

Anyway, that's probably enough of a derail- there's obviously no doubt you can make a strong frame, lighter, with alu.

skywalker - Member

That is (up to 50%) stronger, lighter (because they can use less material) and has riding characteristics similar to steel.

Aye, it's a pretty ideal choice of alu alloy really, for bikes.

Since when did lighter=more nimble?

Lighter generally always means more nimble. All else being equal, a light car or motorbike is going to be more nimble than a heavy one. Same goes with mountain bikes.

A fat dude vs a ballet dancer might be a comparison you can relate to more.

if your riding is primarily downhill a light bike is not important, the heavier bike will probably feel better, more solid, etc, etc blah blah!

rs - Member

if your riding is primarily downhill a light bike is not important

How many top-end downhill racers are on 45lb bikes?

How many top-end downhill racers are on 45lb bikes?

sorry, didn't realise top-end downhill racers used 6lb steel frames... correction then... if riding a hardtail predominantly downhill for fun, a light bike is not important... 😛

Why on earth would you want to ride a 30 lbs hardtail? I am really struggling to find a reason why.

30lb is about right for a bike imo. Any less and it starts to feel unsubstantial, I wouldn't trust riding a really light bike.

Whats to say you won't have more fun on a lighter, more nimble HT, and that you would break one?

Learn to ride properly and you won't need to rely on scaffold tubed frames.

I ride jumps that are 30ft, drops that are 5ft+ and take the sov downhilling and DJ. I can ride properly, just fine thanks 😉

Ideally I'd like a frame with the same geometry and standover clearance as the sov and a pound less, but it doesn't exist (as far as I am aware)

Incidentally. Sov is cromo isn't it? Wonder if they've ever thought about a posh steel version.

rs - Member

sorry, didn't realise top-end downhill racers used 6lb steel frames... correction then... if riding a hardtail predominantly downhill for fun, a light bike is not important...

Still wouldn't agree tbh, that comes down to taste.

Frinstance, my BFe was about 34lbs IIRC when built up heavy with dualplies and Lyriks... felt too sluggish to me, didn't like it much. With more averagey kit on I'd guess it was 29, 30lbs, much more fun to ride and faster to boot.

I was similar, had a dialled alpine around 30ish lbs at first, ended up about 33lbs with bigger forks, wheels, etc and it was much more confidence inspiring on the downhills with the heavier kit, depends what you're riding i guess.

I was similar, had a dialled alpine around 30ish lbs at first, ended up about 33lbs with bigger forks, wheels, etc and it was much more confidence inspiring on the downhills with the heavier kit, depends what you're riding i guess.

What forks did you swap from/to?

pikes to domains, now have a giant faith which is much more appropriate 🙂

rs - Member

depends what you're riding i guess.

Maybe a little, but mostly it's personal taste I reckon. I never rode anything on the fat BFe build that didn't work better for me on the average BFe (well, except when I bloomin punctured it at Fort William, wish I'd had the dualplies on)

Some folks just like bikes that ride differently to what you like... Also, it was easier to load onto the gondola and roofrack I think the lighter build got shaken around more in cattle trucks though.

My Bfe frame weighs 5.4 lbs (quoted). Probably one of the most do-it-all frames around. Light enough for big rides, yet doesnt feel unstable and is very tough.

A build with Wotans and burly rims, sticky tyres, dropper post, chain device etc was ~33lbs. Great fun on the downhills, but overkill really.

Just revised and rationalised it - now its ~26/27 lbs without the dropper post (havnt quite finished bike yet to weigh), with 140mm Revs, 2.4" tyres... i expect its a lost a little bit of its stability, but gained a lot more agility, and should be much less of an arse to drag up a hill.

I seriously doubt I could EVER break the frame.

Its all in the build. A soul would be a pound less with the same build, but I couldnt run a dropper post as easily for more techy riding (and its £200 more!). A change of the relatively old and chunky EA50 bars and onone 456 stem in a few months will see a bit more weight off as well

Its all bikes.

Tim

My freshly built Pure 7 must be in the 30lb range, but it's not an issue for me. I am grateful that I have a U-Turn fork on it to make it more climb friendly though. Job done.

It's heavier than my Enduro, but the ride quality is...different. I like them both, but for different reasons.

I ride a NS Surge (will be a BFe as of next week) as a do it all bike with lyriks up front (lighter than my pikes were!). I have no idea how heavy it is but it'll certainly be a fair bit over 30lbs. I love riding it! It's fantastic on DH courses and I don't like climbing much anyway so don't give a crap how bad it is for that, I just get on with it.