[Closed] 650b Spicy - conclusively faster says Nico

This whole thread...

An exercise in pointless bollocks...

The only useful contribution was this:

I rode a 29'er, 650b and my 26'er back to back and I was equally as slow and unfit on all three.

That sums up the vital differences in the 3 - **** all.

I think on the consumer side there is a desire for some sort of better mousetrap/magic bullet – a wheel size between 26? and 29? that will combine all the positive attributes of both into one bike that will do everything. That desire is a bit naive, but people go down that road all the time.

so just for clarity, every angle was the same? weight, tyres, tyre pressures, rotational mass, suspension components, weather, etc? Nothing was different apart from wheel diameter?

I'm still thinking that what we really need is a wheel size in between 26" and 650B which combines the positive attributes of both. Something you can fit in your current 26" frame and forks but with all the advantages of a larger wheel size. Fortunately such a wheel size which is almost exactly half way between the two is already available and is even in relatively widespread use (I have a couple of pairs of wheels that size in my garage already).

I give you 650C - I understand various companies are already scrapping their 26" and 650B inventory and tooling up massively for 650C ready for launch in 2014. Remember you heard it here first.

Dan Atherton, the spear point of GT's Enduro team, swore off 650B wheels at first, but after helping to dial in the geometry and ride of the new 150-millimeter-travel Force, he changed his mind. Atherton says, however, that he will continue to develop the 26-inch wheel prototype enduro GT he uses on the racing circuit.

The words of GT bicycles themselves, looks like the claim that he races a 650b in dirt were more marketing guff.

source http://www.pinkbike.com/news/GT-2014-Four-models-of-the-new-Fury-DH-and-Two-Trailbikes-650B-S.html

He rode a 650 at the first round of the EWS, also rode a modified carbon Forcewith 650b wheels at the UKGE.

He raced a 650b bike. His 16 year old team mate rode a 26" wheel and beat him.

He also used flat pedals & dual ply tyres. The kid must be an animal.

All this proves is that the marketing men at the bottom of the hill had a 1 second plus delay in hitting the stopwatch when timing the 26" bike's run.
Bit like the scientific races they have on Top Gear.

I rode a 29'er, 650b and my 26'er back to back and I was equally as slow and unfit on all three.

For 99% folk on here that sums it up.
I like the Ferrentino quote, very honest for someone in his position.
The Lapierre press release made me laugh - if 1sec in nearly 3mins is all that they can claim, then they are clutching at straws i.e. next to no difference.
Nowt against 26, 27.5 or 29, just love the way that folk look for a justification. Just get out and ride...

 

b45her - Member

The words of GT bicycles themselves, looks like the claim that he races a 650b in dirt were more marketing guff.

Eh right. You're just choosing to believe one line of marketing over another, because you like one of them more. Meanwhile, the pics of the bike he actually rode are of a 650b. But hey, that's just marketing guff right!

Presumably a 650b is a bit easier to ride up fire-roads etc than a 26, what with "big wheels rolling faster". That's not timed in an enduro format event, but if the rider's arriving at the top fresher or with more energy, and there is no downside to riding the 650b down, why not go with it?

Where's the downside?

Believe it or not I wasn't trying to pour scorn on 650b bikes (though I'm not rushing out to buy one either).

I just think it's a refereshingly honest marketing move - and if there's anyone I'd trust with figures like that it's Nico. He's well known to be quite precise.

I guess they don't HAVE to push it too hard though, if its the only AM bike they sell then we're not going to have much choice if we wanty a new Lapierre.

mattjg - Member

Presumably a 650b is a bit easier to ride up fire-roads etc than a 26, what with "big wheels rolling faster".

Perhaps. Or perhaps the (small) extra weight counteracts the (small) wheel size difference. Or maybe it's all too small a difference to care about.

Or maybe it's all too small a difference to care about.

Could well be. I'm surprised people get so steamed up about it myself.

FWIW I can see how 650b makes a lot of sense for this kind of bike, for a typical rider (rather than a pro). On the other hand I've never ridden one so that opinion's not actually worth very much ...

I will get home 25 seconds faster
[pillock mode]
a 2hr ride is a 2hr ride.
you will go further rather than get back quicker
[/pillock mode]

Then you will have gone past your house, you will have to turn round and go back and it will actually take longer. Now where are your gains.

mattjg - Member

Could well be. I'm surprised people get so steamed up about it myself.

TBF that's [i]exactly[/i] why people get steamed up about it 🙂

[Cynical mode switched on]

Anyone else looking forward to those new 26" wheels being marketed in about 3-5 years time?

Press release along the lines of 'lighter, stronger and more agile' or something.

[Cynical mode switched off]

I'm off to ride bikes!

Other links suggest the Spicy might have dropped to only 150mm rear travel due to the larger wheels? I think i'd rather have 26" and the full 160mm please ;-(

Sounds sensible. If you are going to move from 26" to 650b wheels I'd rather a drop in travel than increased chainstay length.

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is worth considering because there's a small increase in performance

And if you have a load of perfectly good 26" gear, then you're not missing much by continuing with it.

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is worth considering because there's [s]a small increase in performance[/s] no measurable difference in performance that anyone would stand up to some proper analysis.

The numbers quoted are not significant, not conclusive they are in the noise.

There is however one way to improve your speed and results. Get out and ride more.

I think honourablegeorge is bang on..

I really don't understand all the p**sing and moaning about this 650b thing. There's acres of discussion over the suspension performance of this fork or that fork. A new fork comes out that's un-quantifiably better than the last and everyone's happy - but a new wheel size? oh no. it's "marketing bollocks".

Disc brakes were overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
suspension was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
10spd was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
etc etc

All pretty handy things now. And people, in general, want stuff they don't really need. Companies, in general, want to sell stuff.

If this wasn't the way, we'd all be riding around on the MTB equivalant of this:

[img] [/img]

Now, ridgid singlespeeders aside, no one wants that.

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is [s]worth considering[/s] what you will increasingly be forced to buy because the industry has collectively decided that 26" is dead, even though there's [s]a small[/s] no real increase in performance.

10spd was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
etc etc

I think that is the issue - how many people do you know who got rid of all their 9 speed drive train just to get 10 speed?
I dont know one who did as it offered next to nothing just like tapered top tube or rear skewer. It is such a marginal gain it wont persuade you to upgrade just for that though yo may want it on a new bike.

So they forced new bikes on us so we have to upgrade ..1 second for a world champion standard rider is no reason to force a new standard on us all as it is at best a negligible gain [ if you ignore the poor control in the "study"

as for claiming if we dont embrace progress we will be back on 1930 technology it is just a non sequitor

Some advancement is real some is just for money]
Getting rid of 26 ers for 1 second is overkill

All it shows is that if you want a new complete bike, 650 is worth considering what you will increasingly be forced to buy because the industry has decided en mass that 26" is dead, even though there's a small no real increase in performance.

Yep - just like they force you to buy bikes with disc brakes. what arse holes.

You can buy non disc brakes/wheels but I think we can safely assume we can show a performance advantage for them over alternatives without using a pro rider to do it [ assuming i trust the measure and i dont for the reasons mentioned above]

it is not the same thing at all

Can you persuade me I need a 15 bolt through over QR or over 20 mm bolt through

Will i really notice my taper head tube like i will notice discs brakes v rim in the wet for example

it is marginal and IMHO and IME unnoticeable by most riders unlike suspension or brakes.

Disc brakes were overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need
suspension was overkill - marketing man selling you stuff you don't need

Your argument might work better if you picked things where there really is no noticeable difference in performance. Or things which were actually driven by the marketing men. Or are you suggesting that in 10 or 15 years time we'll be looking back and saying that 650B really is a huge improvement over 26" and I don't know why we were so cynical at the time 🙄

Unless you are racing why do we need to go any faster. It often really hurts when I fall off now if I go quicker it's just going to hurt more. On that basis I have just ordered a 26" hardtail frame which I will likely sell as antique next year.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

26" Bike armageddon - stockpile rims, forks and tyres now!

I headed over to retrobike for a rest from wheel size debates and found someone had posted a 650b pace hardtail. No escape!

My bikes will be right at home in retrobike soon at this rate...

What would you like them to do? Sit on these marginal improvements because they don't think people will really notice? Some sort of co-op with a panel of judges deciding if the general consumer will benefit from this enhancement or that. But then some people can notice the difference between 15mm and 20mm - do those people get to buy it - perhaps they need to pass a test? I'd really like to know what the other option is!

Fact is that they aren't holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy the new stuff. If people don't want them, they won't buy them.

sprocker - Member

Unless you are racing why do we need to go any faster. It often really hurts when I fall off now if I go quicker it's just going to hurt more. On that basis I have just ordered a 26" hardtail frame which I will likely sell as antique next year.

for me, i'm not using my wagon-wheels to go faster per-se, but the little bit of extra grip often means the difference between riding through a section, and getting off to walk after a slip-stall.

i'm crap a riding bikes, but even i can find/exceed the point where a tyre lets go - techy climbs are an obvious example, it doesn't take much more grip to make a noticeable difference.

you might as well ask: 'unless you are racing, why do you need to fart about with tyre pressures?'

Your argument might work better if you picked things where there really is no noticeable difference in performance.

OK - perhaps a bit extreme.

Oversized stem / bars - how's that?

QR vs bolt thru rear ?

Syntace 142 rear vs 135 bold tru?

[img] [/img]

ahwiles

for me, i'm not using my wagon-wheels to go faster per-se, but the little bit of extra grip often means the difference between riding through a section, and getting off to walk after a slip-stall

You say this, but how do you know the "extra grip" is down to the wheel size? Unless you go back, fit 26" wheels and ride the section EXACTLY the same, then you just don't know.

Everytime I've seen someone clear a section that previous people have stopped on, it's because they are a better rider.....

Everytime I've seen someone clear a section that previous people have stopped on, it's because they are a better rider.....

But maybe someone who walked it on bike A might ride it on bike B. It's a personal experience, what other people can do isn't really relevant.

What happens in another few years when a second or two is gleened from another "new thing" ? That could be say a 3 second advantage over winning or losing, one things for sure if the riders train as they do throughout the winter for the start of the race season and are putting in their all I for one would want to see them pushing the boundaries even if it was a second !

Competing at the highest level is hard graft, not just in biking but in anything........ Look how much the motoring industry has improved though F1 & 24hour racing, stratified fuel to optimise economy so less fuel carried = less weight = less fuel used...... This trickled into the mainstream motoring manufacturers in various guises but no one moaned half as much about tht as folks are about 1/2 an " on a bike wheel

It's obviously a SIZE Matters thing !

Maybe it matters and maybe it doesent but one things for sure !
You can't stop progression at the level that some of these manufacturers pour into advertising !

It's got to be a good thing, and if it isn't well we can all get one of them Dandy Horses !

Fact is that they aren't holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy the new stuff. If people don't want them, they won't buy them.

Heckler
orange 5
Turner 5 spot

etc

they are forcing me especially that bit where they are not making them anymore

FWIW I accept a 29 er can help you munch miles if that is what you want to do but 650 b is nothing and has no real demand

If you're seriously into racing people from the internet then I reckon it's worth the upgrade.

what i said, but this bike is aimed at us, most pro riders already have a ride.

Does that mean he gets slower as the tyres wear?

I'm still thinking that what we really need is a wheel size in between 26" and 650B which combines the positive attributes of both.

Bit like the scientific races they have on Top Gear.

We may all be riding 650b one day very soon, but I'm unsure that "performance" is really the reason why.

Junkyard - lazarus

FWIW I accept a 29 er can help you munch miles if that is what you want to do but 650 b is nothing and has no real demand

If you accept that 29ers have a real benefit, then you have to accept that 650b delivers some of the same benefit. Whether that justifies buying a new bike/frame/forks/wheels/whatever (it didn't for me) is your own decision.

The demand is real - Americans are going 650 crazy, and this time the small manufacturers are getting on board because a lot of them lost sales by not being ready for the 29er explosion in XC bikes.

you have to accept that 650b delivers some of the same benefit.

I dont actually given the thread tells us it may be one second for a pro rider over 3 minutes with poor [experimental]control and we assume times crossing over each other.

So no I dont

The demand is real

well it will be if it is all you sell

Heckler
orange 5
Turner 5 spot

and this time the small manufacturers are getting on board because a lot of them lost sales by not being ready for the 29er explosion in XC bikes.

Eh? The Sultan has been around for a loooong time, and the tallboy was hardly behind the curve either.

I wasn't talking about Turner or SC, someone else was.

honourablegeorge - Member

The demand is real - Americans are going 650 crazy

Yep. No question IMO that there's a real demand. Not an informed demand, mind, but still.

It's basically a marketing dream... It's a change, requiring new hardware, which is Exciting! New things! But it's basically the smallest possible change that could require it, which stops it from being Scary, like 29ers. In the cold light of day it's ridiculous but it's easy to see why it's so appealing.

All my bikes are from people who made the bike they want to, and made it the best they could. I wonder how true that is of the 650b bandwagoneers. Santa Cruz broke the rules by admitting they were making bikes purely to sell to an uninformed demand, rather than because they're better bikes. Nobody else dares admit that but does anyone believe they're alone?

In the cold light of day it's ridiculous but it's easy to see why it's so appealing.

Money you mean? I don't see why it's appealing. I find myself thinking that anyone who buys into it is simply gullible and, dare I say it, stupid. People who bought into 29er were at least choosing something that clearly was different in performance terms, but the whole 650B thing is like something dreamt up by the Onion.

It's mental and all about selling more stuff when as a world, we should be trying to produce less things and preserve resources not churn out more and more and more things.

It would be silly to think you can police change or demand but it does still cause a bit of sand in my fanny (american for bottom, not a rude word).

I built an enduro in 2007. Since building it and riding it tons it has gone through one set of cogs, one shifter and a chainstay which has been replaced (tyres and tubes as well). I still think 650 is overhyped marketing for little change but can understand why manufacturers would do it. I would if I were them and they sold.

It is a shame that we lower economies of scale on new 26" parts with a new standard.

What would you like them to do? Sit on these marginal improvements because they don't think people will really notice?

What improvement? 1 second is well within the margin of error. This is Emperor's new clothes.