[Closed] 650b selling

stated that 26" is dead

Not if we don't want it to be. Remember, there's no money in it if customers don't want to buy it. And we're all feeling a bit skint right now in case you hadn't noticed?

The whole 650B thing stinks of bullying, and that's what I think is riling so many people. You should take account of that if you want your business to survive...

there's a whole lot of companies over the years that have failed because they forgot the fundamental rule that the money comes in from giving customers want they want to buy... you're heading for a Ratners moment if you carry on with such an arrogant attitude

Here's Brenden Fairclough's Downhill gearbox bike at the fort bill world champs 2007, the execution of the design maybe left something to be desired but on a "go-on, let us have a quick shot" blag i thought it it was bloody good.

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Ok, the project was shelved but we need daft ideas like this rather than the entire industry clubbing together to push wheels sizes as the saviour of mtb's

That would be the Gary Fisher employed by the Trek Bicycle Corporation?

Or a different wierdy beardy old fella with the dress sense of a clown wheeled out whenever they need to lend some old school legitimacy to their big new "Ideas"?

FFS just give it up... Please.

Spoke to Gary Fisher there last year who stated that 26" is dead
We shall see

That doesn't mean bugger-all i'm afraid.....
I've shared a big fat Northern Lights joint wi Gary Fisher and talked shite for ages whilst discussing the finer merits of a two skinner joint vs using three papers vs using blunts , he's immensenly entertaining as a person and i'd have him as a dinner guest every night of the week for his passion and love for mtb'ing but as for his belief that 26" is dead?......I'd love to have that argument wi him over a few J's..........

or the same Gary fisher that proclaimed he always wanted to use 29" wheels but couldn't find anyone to manufacture tyres for them for 30 years 🙄

no doubt trek will wheel the old fart again to try and push 650b.

It was the legend yes

I don't think that bikeind is really grasping what most folks here are saying.

It's not the wheel size itself that being objected to, it's the industry's approach to it. I think this sums it up quite nicely -

The whole 650B thing stinks of bullying, and that's what I think is riling so many people.

So, 26" wheels, the most common size of wheel on the planet, used in their millions all over Asia as a main method of transport. These are going to be phased out, because an eldery mountain bike icon said 2cm bigger would be better?

Seems like a stupid time to jump ship. CRC have:

240x 26" wheelsets, 19x 650b wheels.
276x 26" tyres, 18x 650b tyres.
124x 26" forks, 7x 650b forks.

Enjoy paying top prices for essentially the same product.

So, 26" wheels, the most common size of wheel on the planet, used in their millions all over Asia as a main method of transport. These are going to be phased out, because an eldery mountain bike icon said so?

CRC have

Allegedly annoyed a lot of distributors so don't have the range of new stock they once did?

Not defending 650B which I think is marketing-driven, but CRC maybe not the best place for comparison of what's available.

Actually, on a similar note to above.

CRC still have MORE square taper BBs, than they have PF30 + BB30 bottom brackets added together, regardless of the fact no one has made square taper chainsets in about 5-6 years?

Do they? I'd better stock up!

I've not owned a 29 or 650 yet. Maybe in 5yrs time when I have a midlife crisis. Yesterday I saw 3 middled aged blokes fullykitted out for the mountins on their 29'ers....in Manchester.

fullykitted out for the mountins on their 29'ers....in Manchester.

They were on Manchester trails not heading to the Surrey Alps

so, can you buy a high end 26" wheeled HT in 2014? or is there a limited choice?

Maybe they were passing through manchester on a few-day ride taking in the Peak dist and a few other spots? All I'm saying is, who cares what they were doing/riding/etc )

Wrongside of Manchester but 29ers are the preserve of the middle aged crisis-types.

Prob see the odd young rider but for the main its middled-aged types agonising over their riding/life.

Well, I picked up the new 650b Sight on Saturday and took it round Penmachno in the afternoon and down Snowdon early on Sunday. First thoughts are that it is a very nice bike. Climbs well, descends superbly, handles the tight, fast, gnarly singletrack of Penmachno just fine and coped with everything Snowdon could throw at it without any issues. Did the 650 wheels make a tangible difference? Hard to say, particularly given I've traded to more travel and slacker angles than my other bike (Turner Flux). I've never ridden Snowdon before, so can't make a valid comparison, but I have been to Penmachno a few times and it certainly felt a bit more flowy, like the wheels were able to glide a bit more over the rocks/ruts.

Was it faster? - Again, hard to say. It was my first time back on a bike since a pretty harsh otb on the Edale loop a couple of weeks ago, so I was probably a bit more tentative than would otherwise have been the case, but it felt like it flowed really well and I I certainly feel that the geometry and riding position were better for me as an XL rider, in that I didn't feel quite so perched above the wheels.

Will it catch on/is it the right thing?
No idea! But I've previously stated that to me it seems crazy to have the same wheel sizes for radically different sized frames/riders. Bigger wheels certainly seem to sit better with the size of frames that I ride, maybe that's the future, wheelsize defined by the size of the rider.
As an afterthought, the FS mountain bike industry has only really been around for 20 odd years. That's a very small amount of time in the bigger picture and certainly a small one to decide on one standard and say this is the perfect one for time immemorial. I would have thought it would take longer than that for all permutations to be worked through sufficiently for the optimum size to be defined. As I understand it, 26" became default because mountain bikes were "invented" in the states and 26" wheels were what the clunkers that they used to to barrel down mountains took. If they'd been invented in France (though the French probably claim that they were 😉 ) then the European standard 29" would probably have prevailed. Seems a pretty hit and miss way of deciding upon the best wheel size to me. And in fairness, to those above who see him as nothing more than a willing mouthpiece for Trek, I believe that Mr Fisher was expounding the benefits of larger wheels long before Fisher was bought by Trek.

Anyway, I'm happy with the bike and the wheels seem to work well with the larger frame and whilst I agree that the marketing/hype around 650b has been a little excessive, at the end of the day it's horses for courses and we should all just get out there and ride 🙂

As I understand it, 26" became default because mountain bikes were "invented" in the states and 26" wheels were what the clunkers that they used to to barrel down mountains took. If they'd been invented in France (though the French probably claim that they were ) then the European standard 29" would probably have prevailed.

I once invested in Sony Mini Disc HiFi stuff thinking to myself (young and naive) that how could it possibly not take off? My Dad warned me about it being new. I didn't really have the intelligence or forward thinking about the future as had never experienced anything like it (too young to really take in the betamax thing except to see it and think it was "cool"). It's when you start spending your own money on things that you wake up and think...arr....that wasn't such a good idea. I lost a fair amount of money on that.

Fast forward to Bluray vs HD DVD. I was happy to watch it play out. I would not invest in a format that would die. I predicted HD DVD would win and watched some of my friends spend hundreds on HD DVD players, HD DVD and even new TVs. Then it failed and was dropped. People lost money. But not as many...

These days people are more clued up. They research purchases more since they have less disposable income. People read reviews and experiences. People want value. Markets are competitive. People are happy to sit tight and watch what happens.

When a new "standard" comes out, it is much more scrutinized these days. People are less susceptible to marketing. When new "standards" come out which can change the value of currently owned possessions, people often will meet these standards with (and rightly so) questions and doubt. It is only natural. I think we as consumers have become more immune to these so called "standards" and are beginning to become tougher in our acceptance of them. We are starting to see the true colours of companies and how these "standards" are really just disguised profit.

If a genuinely good product comes out and it is innovative, then fine. But re-inveting the wheel (quite literally) is going to be met with criticism, since it just so happens so warrant a whole new bike.

This seems like as good a place as any to also have a mini rant generally about new bike prices. There is no way new bikes are worth their price tags a lot of the time. I walked past a shop window the other day and saw an all mountain bike in there which whilst more modern and probably better than mine, I don't think it is £3000 better than mine. I mean really, who can afford a £3699 bike that's essentially a toy? I've not owned a car worth more than that.

I mean really, who can afford a £3699 bike that's essentially a toy? I've not owned a car worth more than that.

What's your name? Vladimir Lenin? 😉

The OP and others pushing 650B should read the post from coursemyhorse - some very sensible insight there...
We're all watching the pennies more than we used to, and far far better at educating ourselves. Not just about bikes, but allsorts.

I think the OP and bike industry have misjudged this one badly.
Not the introduction of a new wheelsize, I think the argument about choice and diff wheels for different sizes of rider is fair enough... but the threat of refusing to support the massive installed base will, I think turn out to be a New Coke/DCC/Minidisc scenario.

I agree on bike prices. I've never bought a whole/new bike.

Agree with a lot of the comments re bike prices. Ironically my recent purchase was the first time I've bought a mountain bike as a complete bike since I bought a Cannondale hardtail back in 2006. Usually I'd buy a frame or a 2nd hand (though the market for XL frames/bikes is tiny). It was in the sales though and the price was so good I figured buy it, ride it and upgrade it as and when as it's an excellent platform. In truth I decided that I needed more travel for the riding I'm increasingly doing and an upcoming trip to the Alps next week focused my mind. Although the price of the bike was good value, once I've upgraded the wheels, fork, groupset and finishing kit it will end up at the 2.5k - 3k mark depending on how much of the right stuff I can get secondhand. Still, it's cheaper than sports cars or motorbikes as a hobby and as long as I can stay rubber side down, healthier as well.. 😀

I guess the proof will be in the pudding - new entrants to mountain biking will take whatever is available, but this was true when only 26" was available - if veteran MTBers and decent riders feel the need to stick with 26" then the industry will continue to support it just through economics.

It would be surprising if the whole industry moved away from their bread and butter frame sets for the new vogue, however they all obviously feel that is where the money is (albeit based on the need for everyone to follow the "fashion").

I think we all agree that there is no perfect wheel size for everyone and the choice of wheel size has always limited (although having said that there were already 20" 24" 26" 29") so having a new size is undoubtedly a good thing as it gives more choice, the main concern is having change forced upon us (and thereby limiting choice).

I do not believe that we will lose 26" forever. Yes there will be a smaller range of bikes available in that size but the range is already massive so it can cope with a thinning out.

So change is a good thing and I for one have embraced it by buying a 29er, but my main reason for doing so was that the frame at that wheelsize feels better for my height.

Vive la difference! 😀

[b]rOcKeTdOg[/b]
so, can you buy a high end 26" wheeled HT in 2014? or is there a limited choice?

Very limited choice from mainstream brands, and even some smaller ones, but more niche brands & steel frame builders still churning them out.

Seem to be a few that are sold as both 650b and 26" though?

Toasty - Member

Seem to be a few that are sold as both 650b and 26" though?

that's a good point - how much difference will a 27.5 frame be with 26" wheels?

Vive la difference

Not if you're under 5'10" and end up buying into years of bodged frame geometry that has to accommodate the wheels first and frame dynamics second. That's what the non-solution 650b is supposed to remedy. There's going to be a lot of frame mis-selling over the next couple of years.

Some good points above on this page, 26" won't die out of course, far to wide spread and in use, we forget that we are a minority of all bike users on the planet. It is just another adjustment in the world of bikes...I think 29ers will remain for XC, 650b will be for trail bikes and 26 will be for trials and DJing...DH is the one I can't work out but I am pretty confident it will go to 650b in the end just may take a moment or two! But we are at the top end of MTBing so no it won't change the majority of bike owners for many years. Entry level bikes still come with V-brakes and we aren't complaining there.

I think the whole marketing/nasty bike companies ripping us off is a bit of a cynical viewpoint, yes undoubtedly they see an option to bring out another range to boost their sales but this wasn't developed purely for that. It does genuinely make a difference to rolling speed, more than a 26 but less than a 29. The majority of hardtails are used for trail/XC and so are likely to be 650b/29er as this suits their strengths the most.

"regardless of the fact no one has made square taper chainsets in about 5-6 years?"

Really? I am suprised as I have had no trouble at all in buying new square taper BB and chainsets.

Seen it all before, the wonder solutions to solve no existant problems. I am grumpy old git though. I shall wait till things have calmed down and it's been decieded what will be the norm.

"These days people are more clued up." Nope there is still one born every minute who'll buy into whats new. We need these suckers to fall for it so that we can wait and find out whats going to stand the test of time not the test of marketing people.

"regardless of the fact no one has made square taper chainsets in about 5-6 years?"

Really? I am suprised as I have had no trouble at all in buying new square taper BB and chainsets.

Given the first half of that line was "CRC still have MORE square taper BBs", I'm not surprised you've had no trouble 🙄

You know what I mean 😛

CRC still have MORE square taper BBs, than they have PF30 + BB30 bottom brackets added together, regardless of the fact no one has made square taper chainsets in about 5-6 years?

Shimano and stronglight still make square taper. Stronglight make some lovely sets that go on a lot of our custom builds. For longeveity theres nothing to beat good old square taper.

26" wheels and parts will be around for years yet. I really don't understand the panic. I do understand why people are annoyed at the manufacturers though. Seems a pretty cynical move by them while not really offering anything significantly different. 650b is best left on old randonneur or touring bikes (Rivendell make some nice 650b bikes still)

Been riding my 650b more than the 29er of late

The trails must be so alive.

26 will last longer than 29.

I think this could work to the benefit of 29ers. If people accept that bigger wheels are better its just a matter of time before the newbie 650b owners will be looking for bigger wheels, to further the benefits of taking the step from 26 to 27.5... All 29ers need is a lighter wheel in most cases to bring the trail alive.

At the end of the day as we get fitter we want to ride faster, and will spend good money on the right equipment to do it...

Then again i might be wrong 😉

bikeind - Member
Been riding my 650b more than the 29er of late

I thought you were only riding 650b... 😕

I love this time of year, when things get a bit muddy and the mud sticks to my old fashioned, dare I say "retro" 26" wheeled bike.

As soon as mud sticks to my tyres and the rolling diameter increases a bit, the trail just comes alive!

It's ace

I love this time of year, when things get a bit muddy and the mud sticks to my old fashioned, dare I say "retro" 26" wheeled bike

you mean mud doesn't stick to larger wheels? cooool!

Yes indeed certainly taken off now like I did say hey!!

Is there any difference compared to six months ago...?

I predict there'll be a run on saddles, especially for those that want to make their butt feel more alive.

Or is it the recent spate of gastric flu?

Meh.

Have we not all got over this yet? I know I've stopped caring, although recent rides did feel like they were missing a certain je ne sais quoi, a slightly dead feeling. If only there was something I could do to make the trails feel a bit more, I don't know, alive??