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Have to agree with the travesty that was the downgrading of RUPPs to byways - one of my riding mates is a red sock when he's not riding mtbs and we have long rows about why motorised access should be available to the countryside - apparently it's [i]too noisy[/i] and [i]spoils the atmosphere[/i]. What tosh, as MrNutt says it'll be trail riders and then mtbs, and we'll all be illegal and have to beat up ramblers who come and have a quiet word.
Even round my local routes there are 4ft ruts, hub deep lakes etc. caused by motorised vehicle use. Large parts of my local bridleways and byways have been rendered almost impassable. I really want to agree with Mr Nutt in some respects, because it seems an awful shame for some people to lose their right to do what they want in the countryside. But what is the way forward when the needs of different trail users are not compatible?
nah the Ramblers will become too infirm to walk, repeal the ban, take their 4x4lite's down the byways then petition to metalise the routes citing disabled access and you'll all be forced to wear a helmet even when walking in the countryside (and to be carrying the appropriate licenses)
But what is the way forward when the needs of different trail users are not compatible?
open more routes which would reduce traffic load, have people display a "RoW license", like a road tax disk that is purchased for a nominal fee but it would be a legal requirement to be displayed should you wish to use the RoW network, failure to display would lead to destruction of the vehicle.
Simple. as they say in the USA, Tread lightly.
MrNutt, I have been abused , threatened and driven at by 4X4 drivers simply for looking at them (yes literally just that because they couldn't get over a particular difficult patch). If you represent them or even defend these idiots then you are just as bad. This tread is about illegal use. You really are a typical 4x4er.
i have been part of off roading for many years, trails . racing , greenlaning etc, the problems are the ramblers , they are a powerfull body of people, do not underestermate them , if you want to "blame" someone blame them.re-open more routes, the knee jerk reaction of the early 2000s in a pile of poo , and dose not help the country side at all ,or acsses to it.
yep, thats what I've been saying isn't it fauxbyfour, that I agree, represent and defend these idiots?
NO ITS NOT
I said I am not surprised that it has come to this, many responsible 4x4 users have been driven out of the hobby and the remainder will be treated as lepers due to the campaign of demonization carried out by the Ramblers Organization.
I'm sure that there are still many responsible drivers of off road vehicles.
This tread is about illegal use.
Yes, I understand that, and if you hadn't noticed I DO NOT CONDONE ILLEGAL ANYTHING.
You really are a typical 4x4er.
ah, so its an insult now eh? fair enough,
I used to legally drive an off road vehicle, encourage and "unofficially" police the activities of a large number of club members. I used to use my vehicle to help others and spent almost every weekend carrying out unpaid trail clearing (burnt cars, fallen trees, etc). I was most defiantly a typical 4x4 driver.
you may not have noticed that earlier in this thread I posted up the number of the police force concerned and urged people to contact the police should they witness any illegal activity and NOT TO CONFRONT THEM.
Like I've also said before, [u]I am[/u] prone to being a cock, I'm not ashamed to admit it, I have opinions and I'll share em.
I don't however condone any kind of attacks on people, I can see why some "hardcore" element may take exception at being told they shouldn't be there, my guess is they already know that.
and they arn't cocks, those are ****s.
For MrNutt's benefit.
No-one is disputing the RoW for 4x4s over Houndkirk Moor. Unfortunately though some drivers have taken to driving off the established RoW through the Peat, leaving what looks like a 4x4 play-park. This area near the summit used to be very small, but in the last few months seems to have quadrupled in size and the adjacent footpath also seems to be seen as 'fair game'.
I guess this may partly be due to Totley Moor being closed of, however that place was getting like the somme, in areas random muddy tracks covering an area up to 30 metres wide for a stretch of probably about 200m. The main irony of this being that 4x4 drivers wanting a 'challenge' in their cars that could easily drive round the world drove round the mud pits.
This display of disregard for the sustainability of their routes / access agreements and general inconsiderateness leaves me with little room to be sympathetic.
I have no sympathy for illegal offroading. I condemn it. It should be reported to the police immediately. (see the number posted earlier, if you live around there, stick it in your mobile phone and use it!)
[url= http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/letters/Shared-concerns-on-Houndkirk-Moor.4908229.jp ]ORIGINAL LINK[/url]If however, anyone witnesses illegal off-roading, they should contact South Yorkshire police on 0114 2202020.
That point of view doesn't mean that I believe OffRoaders to be inherently bad people, in fact mountain bikers are very very similar in so many ways!
I do however have ZERO tolerance for the ramblers and their association.
Their organization can burn in hell for all I care. Liberty thieving bigots.
no that didn't work, Matt I just had a look on your link, what are all those strange areas around there? there's what looks like a quarry and something that looks, sort of large purple and random? (if you scroll down wards from your image?)
I used to drive a 4x4, I used it to take young and old disabled/less able folk out of the towns and cities so that they could get a chance to see the countryside.
Is that common practice then? I have to admit that I've seen very few disabled folk being driven around the Peak in 4x4s let alone on trail bikes.
BWD, I knew a few folk that did it, I also used to go out driving with the missis and with friends, we'd often drive for hours, slowly and then all stop, eat, laugh etc
It was really good, no violence, no "damage" to the countryside, lots of bird watching, photography, endless chatter about technical aspects and condemnation/praise for Fox shocks!!
It was good (mostly) clean fun, whilst it lasted. 🙁
Mr Nutt- I appreciate your posts, although I don't agree with much of what you've written, I think you get at a useful point. People who drive and ride off road are a pretty diverse bunch. Some of us are more similar than others, and even "ramblers" can be considered in this category. Unfortunately some people are ****s in all walks of life, and their actions reflect badly on people associated with them. The problem for 4x4/trail bike users is that their actions have the [b]potential[/b] for far greater disturbance and damage than any other user group. Responsible access for all should be respected, but some areas cannot take the pressure of certain uses and in some cases [b]all[/b] motorised access is inappropriate.
For what it's worth, I'm happy to share the landscape with anyone, they're all people under the red socks, lycra, tweed, jodphurs, visor or cucumber. When debates descend to "all XXXX's are ****s" it doesn't get anyone anywhere (metaphorically?). I'd far rather be out and about with reasonable people who consider the environment and others than inconsiderate and selfish ones. Again, the problem for vehicle users is that a single instance of inconsiderate or ill-judged behaviour has far more serious and longer-lasting impacts.
I am not against off-roaders per-see but feel that on this occasion they have overstepped the mark. There needs to be access in the right places but here they have left their legal rights of way and damaged large areas of "protected" habitat.
Houndkirk Moor is heather moorland. Whilst that might seem unremarkable in Britain, when viewed from a larger perspective 75% of the world's heather moorland is in the British Isles.
It is an important habitat for species like the red grouse which are endemic (found nowhere else) to the British Isles. This habitat is already facing huge pressures due to climate change, urban encroachment and erosion by increasing visitor numbers.
The moor is in a national park and is supposed to be in a protected area yet on an average weekend the British can be found wheelspinning their 4x4's over areas that are away from the main track.
Someone commented earlier that "there is loads of countryside" but to me this isn't the case anymore. Urban encroachment has seen large areas concreted over and the areas we still have are all to often getting trashed very quickly. Round me people just chuck trash out of the car window and fly-tipping is rife. Nobody is systematically picking litter up out in the countryside leading to further degredation of the areas.
"no that didn't work, Matt I just had a look on your link, what are all those strange areas around there? there's what looks like a quarry and something that looks, sort of large purple and random? (if you scroll down wards from your image?) "
the ribbon like white/pale track to the southeast is the byway, the other light/pale areas are the 4x4 playground off the byway.
And the odd shapes in heather are some burnt areas, and some managed / replanted areas.
I agree C_P, not so much that a single instance can cause irreparable damage, rather a single apple can spoil an whole batch. Unfortunately there are bad apples in [u]every[/u] orchard.
What happened with the 4x4 community was that the Ram.Ass. directed what was essentially a campaign of hate and intolerance against a large community of recreational drivers, the majority of whom were responsible. There were a few very heavily publicized areas that were branded as irresponsibly DAMAGED, this was done by a tiny minority which the 4x4 community was actively trying to prevent. As the hate campaign escalated reasonable people were driven away. I personally have been verbally abused, punched, spat in the face, and had windows broken, all by "red socks". The actual violence happened on three occasions, everytime it happened I had seen walkers 200m ahead and pulled aside then switched off my engine. Why? to not disturb their walking. The first time it was a woman that spat in my face, unprovoked, I wasn't even looking at her (I was reading a bird book).
I stopped off roading because I could no longer trust myself should somebody attack me, these attacks were always unprovoked and were instigated by the walkers.
The last assault where my drivers window was smashed there were two young children in the back of the truck.
I continued to try and fight to keep the RoW's open but I was on a loosing battle, the MP's were complicit, the media jumped on the bandwagon with the green issues and these kind of attacks were becoming more frequent across the country and the hatred was setting in on both sides, it got ugly years ago.
Now its abhorrent. I've seen both sides of it (I've also dealt with a few arsehole offroaders)
but like I say, I'm not surprised that some idiots are lashing out when they are essentially being interrupted whilst breaking the law. But would you wander up to someone braking into a car and expect them to calmly discuss their ill advised adventure? what kind of reaction would you expect?
If you see someone breaking the law, report their activity to the police immediately.
BWD, I knew a few folk that did it, I also used to go out driving with the missis and with friends, we'd often drive for hours, slowly and then all stop, eat, laugh etcIt was really good, no violence, no "damage" to the countryside, lots of bird watching, photography, endless chatter about technical aspects and condemnation/praise for Fox shocks!!
It was good (mostly) clean fun, whilst it lasted. [:(]
If only the off roaders in the Peak were more like you instead of the mindless ****s they appear to be.
I'd like to point out that all the responsible 4x4 owners, myself included, are totally against the 'off-piste' driving as is being discussed in this post. The subject is often condemned in the 4x4 press. I've driven this lane myself, if you see a red 110 stop and say hello, and am angered by what I've seen. It's a shame that 4x4's seem to attract the kind of people that see the countryside as there own personal back-garden which they can (mis)treat any way they want.
not all 4x4 drivers are bad. A year or so ago (on Houndkirk Road) in the depths of winter a Disco pulled over by a large puddle to let me by and avoid soaking me. As I went through the puddle I hit a submerged rock, went over the bars and bounced head first off the OSF wing of the Disco 🙁
Rather that getting annoyed, the driver wound down his window, pissing himself laughing, and said 'wish I had my camera'
i find it hard to understand what is responsible about any off road motorised activity in the peak - yes i understand the legal arguments and the history and can probably differentiate between legal (but in my opinion anti social) off roading and down right illegal and very antisocial - in the end the damage on and off legal ROW is there for all to see and the noise and aggression is blatant and is very much "f the rest of the world i'll have a good time at your expense"
yes there are some who cycle irresponsibly and i condemn them and their are some ramblers that tut tut at all and sundry but the outcome from their "bad" behaviour does a lot less harm
With regard to the original post, that states trailriders duffed up a runner, you will now find that this is not true.
The case has now been dropped by the Police.
The trailriders acted in self defence after being pushed off the bike by the jogger.
I doubt the truth will be told in the newspaper, in the way it was originally delt with.
In the meantime, it appears trailriders have been branded as people wanting conflict.
I agree - just like us bikers, most 4x4 drivers are great, friendly people out enjoying themselves.
That said, the minority spoil it for the few AND the extra damage 4x4's can do, in a short space of time, can be dramatic. I have never seen a 4x4 repair party fixing trails...Houndkirk as a prime example 10 years ago was a lovely, rocky n sandy old Roman Road/ Double track - its now a potholed, puddled, torn apart mess 30'+ wide in places. Its not the walkers and bikers doing the damage.
The trailriders acted in self defence after being pushed off the bike by the jogger. I doubt the truth will be told in the newspaper
Lone man in shorts runs halfway up mountain and beats up group of poor defenceless motorcyclists dressed in armour shocker. I can see the headlines.
🙂
[i]LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE NATIONAL TRAIL NETWORK IS OPEN TO MOTORIZED VEHICULAR USE!
LESS THAN ONE PERCENT!!![/i]
Fingers crossed we can get rid of that last fraction of a percent too.
poor trolling Ian, .2/10 must try harder 😉
Lone man in shorts runs halfway up mountain and beats up group of poor defenceless motorcyclists dressed in armour shocker. I can see the headlines.This statement is incorrect & made up, so it would probably be in the newspaper
a lie!
Mrnutt is right with some points we will be on the banned list next if we do not have a voice against "the ramblers". We are no different to the 4x4 people, we ride illegal routes and do loads of damage that is difficult to justify to a red socky person. We know that most of us have used that bit of footpath that we should not use. We do need to be careful who we condem, instead perhaps looking for the common good that would protect our access. Your average walker is also part of the damage problem, take a look at the Pennine way 30ft wide in places due to the boots getting round bog thing. If we use the contryside we all make a bloody mess. It's the human way. Anyway I thought the countryside was a work place not play area.
Glad i live in the Cotswolds nice and quite.Peaks they are paranoid about.I have been out up there many atime on a mountain bike and chatted to 4x4 drivers the last time was when i was coming down chapel gate guy said that must of been rough on that i said was bit wish i was on my motobike he just laughed.I have had gates open for me up there when i have been riding my motobike no problem.But then again what ever i ride i dont go out with a chip on my shoulder like alot of these mtbers do these days.Mr Nutt talks alot of sense you will get it when moutain bikers start to stopped.The National Trust would love to ban them over there land and that comes from someone very high up in there Swindon Head office.
4x4 dirvers who want to go offroading on this sort of terrain should find designated offroad tracks. The rights of way act should put pay to this wanton vandalism.
MTB'er should also give due consideration to these environments (avois riding when it is has been excessively wet (use the road), but one bloke in a car will do more damage than 1000 MTB'ers.
I suspect the violent thugs that use motocrossers and 4x4's don't limit their aggression and lawbreaking to these remote places. Let's hope they get their comeuppance. But then we have to tolerate ****s like this all the time. The only language they will ever understand is being beaten to within an inch of their lives. No fair minded normal person is comfortable with giving them what they dish out, so this crap perpetuates!
Whatever off road sport we partake in their is always an element within who have no genuine regard for their actions or consequences of whether it be red socks,equine, 4x4, mtb or enduro bikes.These are the people who need to be tackled and moved on to their next "fad" sport, having competitively raced off road for twenty years and mtb for the same if not more it is a genuine problem in all areas.North wales also takes a hammering from the weekend warriors coming in from suburbia for their playtime and wreaking havoc. I agree 100% about the all powerful red socks and their single minded opinions about access and use being restricted as much as possible but to tar 4x4,horse and bikes with the same brush is wrong.The police are keen as hell to eradicate the "rogue" element and so are the rangers in their respective areas to - maybe phone calls to the powers that be when we see it happening? any other suggestions besides the usual beat them to death crap we seem to get
Well, that kicked off didn't it?
Let's break this down:
Illegal 4x4 use - As far as I can tell, this is condemned by most right thinking folk. If you go on some of the 4x4 forums, there's endless posts vilifying the idiots who destroy fragile areas and give the rest of the fraternity a bad name. The fact is, the idiots will lose the responsible 4x4 users trails they've used for years.
Legal 4x4 use - I'm instinctively against banning anything, or else we might be next. But trail use has to be responsible. If my favourite trail is a mudbath, I try to avoid it for obvious reasons. The main problem on many Peak District byways is that the 4x4's use them whatever the weather. Surely the GLASS code of conduct should be stuck on the windscreen of every responsible 4x4 driver?? I got talking to a guy on Houndkirk recently. it was very wet and I asked him how bad conditions would have to get before he considered not driving over. He replied that it was pretty bad now and he had thought it might be a bad idea. He then told me how he was one of the responsible ones and had reported other drivers for illegal activities. He then left, hit the next mudbath in high ratio and gunned his landy for all it was worth! If that's being responsible, then I give up.
Self policing - Any other outdoor user group, whether it's climbers, MBers or whatever tend to self police. 4x4 users tend not to. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. If the 4x4 community is so worried about illegal driving, why don't you self police? Take it in turns to keep an eye on heavily damaged areas and pass on advice to those who don't have the brains to make a sane decision.
Any road up, if things continue as they are, 4x4 use will be curtailed. It's down to those who drive off-roaders to put their own house in order.
cheers
jh
Hi John i agree with what you are saying but has more and more TRO etc are put on 4x4/motobike trails it puts more pressure on the the ones that are left so they get hammered then they are wrecked.So you get a total ban so what are these people going to do then not use the tracks they have always used just go anywhere and what problems that will cause.There is a ban on the Ridgeway thats seems to work quite well over the winter but the the tracks still get hammered because of the big tractors crossing it to get too the other fields but we need food.The countryside seems to be getting to small for everybody to live together.
Hi dobiejessmo,
Spot on mate. This is the biggest concern for the Peak Park Authorities. So I say again, I'm not calling for a ban. I want the 4x4 community to take responsibility for its own "bad eggs". They need to educate the reckless few even if that means giving up some of their free time at the weekend. What's wrong with GLASS posting 'wardens' near sensitive areas to advise other drivers as to what's acceptable and what isn't??
cheers
jh
I have to say, I've never encountered any 4x4s charging about the countryside up here in Scotland.
We can also cycle pretty much wherever we want.
GIRFUY 😆
Mrnutt is right with some points we will be on the banned list next if we do not have a voice against "the ramblers". We are no different to the 4x4 people, we ride illegal routes and do loads of damage that is difficult to justify to a red socky person....
People always come out with this one, that mountain bikes will be next.
The difference between 4x4/motorbikes and ramblers / mountain bikers, is that a single 4x4 can do a massive amount of damage to a track just by hanging around and spinning the wheels with their powerful engines in the way they tend to. Bikes or ramblers it takes hundreds or thousands of them to do the same kind of damage.
Also, in the Peak, several times I've had those bloody motorbikers / quad bikers hammer past spraying mud up, not even bothering to slow down. Even inconsiderately ridden mountain bikes don't send up anywhere the same amount of muck, or scare people anywhere near as much.
I have seen a small number of considerately ridden motorbikes in the Peak District, but the vast majority that you see won't slow down for anything, whereas I'd say 90% of mountain bikers you see there don't do anything stupid, and pass people sensibly. It may not be that the passtime is inherently anti-social, but it is really obvious that the majority of people who do it, ride in an anti-social manner and should have their bikes impounded or whatever.
Joe